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not a big fan of vivenne but something she said changed my mind about the rebellion


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#201
Xilizhra

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The only BS here is your bias, I like how you ignore the fact that the elves killed countless of innocents and were sacking Val Royeaux when the Exalted March was called.
The Emerald Knights derserved their fate, unfortunately the others elves had too pay for their crimes.

"Countless innocents" doesn't apply to people who are trying to kill you. It's arguable that they killed one innocent.

 

 

Templars losing PR does not equal mages gaining it. That elf in Redcliff says that mages are the ones everyone hates, Fiona says the doors to every city in Thedas but Redcliff were closed to the and that everyone blamed them for the Divine's death, etc. Furthermore, there are multiple of War Table quests, both on the mage and Templar side, where we have to rescue mages from angry populace or you find the corpse of mages that were killed by people taking the law into their own hands.

1. What elf?

2. When?

3. Hasmal didn't have a templar rebellion, and the College of Magi mobs were whipped up by Venatori.



#202
Iakus

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Everyone in the game except Vivienne and the templars themselves seems to blame both sides, or lean to the mage side.

 

Is that why I'm sending Ser Barris out to rescue mages from being lynched? Or why the people of Redcliffe are so unhappy?

 

I'd agree with those saying both sides share blame.  But the mages are not innocent parties in this, and Vivienne know it.

 

 

The Exalted March was just political Chantry bullshit. The entire religion is political bullshit, really; not Andraste's doing, but that of a grasping and power-hungry would-be emperor.

And which would-be emperor would that be?


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#203
Boost32

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Templars losing PR does not equal mages gaining it. That elf in Redcliff says that mages are the ones everyone hates, Fiona says the doors to every city in Thedas but Redcliff were closed to the and that everyone blamed them for the Divine's death, etc. Furthermore, there are multiple of War Table quests, both on the mage and Templar side, where we have to rescue mages from angry populace or you find the corpse of mages that were killed by people taking the law into their own hands.

http://dragonage.wik...est_from_Hasmal
http://dragonage.wik...r's_Obligations
http://dragonage.wik..._of_Maleficarum
http://dragonage.wik..._of_Abomination
http://dragonage.wik...College_of_Magi


BTW, I love this mission.

http://dragonage.wik..._Against_Demons

It is only a week since you left, yet Ansburg slowly returns to its routines. We will never forget how demons ran through our streets, just as we will always remember the men and women who reclaimed them.
There is talk of erecting a statue in honor of our Templar defenders. I can already hear you calling it "excessive nonsense," but it is little enough for saving a city. Allow us our heroes.

The templars didn't even lost their reputation, even Leliana says something like " Bringing the templars has done wonders for our reputation. The people trust the templars and now they trust us ".
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#204
Wissenschaft 2.0

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I believe this thread has thoroughly explored why Human and Elven religions both suck. All hail the paragons, go Dwarves!


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#205
Xilizhra

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Is that why I'm sending Ser Barris out to rescue mages from being lynched? Or why the people of Redcliffe are so unhappy?

For the former, the Inquisition repudiated the mage rebellion. For the latter, Venatori. Most of them seem to narrowly favor the mages.

 

 

I'd agree with those saying both sides share blame.  But the mages are not innocent parties in this, and Vivienne know it.

They absolutely are. All blame ascribed to them for the rebellion, with the assumption that the rebellion was unjust, is the product of idiots (as opposed to the Venatori thing, which may be more legitimately criticized).

 

 

And which would-be emperor would that be?

Drakon, the one who wanted an Andrastian cult that would endorse his empire.

 

 

I believe this thread has thoroughly explored why Human and Elven religions both suck. All hail the paragons, go Dwarves!

Dwarven religion is worse than both.



#206
Steelcan

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All y'all need the Drowned God
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#207
Boost32

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"Countless innocents" doesn't apply to people who are trying to kill you. It's arguable that they killed one innocents


The elves were the invaders, do you think they didn't kill any people when they were marching through Orlais? Did you forget they didn't stop at Red Crosding? And how is protecting the place where you live from invaders make you not innocent?

#208
Boomshakalakalakaboom

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Siding with Templars/Chantry makes you condone slavery, brainwashing, nazism, evil, kidnapping, rape, police states, and mass murder.


Lol.

This gave me a good chuckle.

*rolls eyes*
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#209
Xilizhra

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The elves were the invaders, do you think they didn't kill any people when they were marching through Orlais? Did you forget they didn't stop at Red Crosding? And how is protecting the place where you live from invaders make you not innocent?

The people of Red Crossing tried to murder foreign nationals who happened to be much better armed. Then the Chantry decided to exercise its illegitimate military power by giving blatant favoritism to Orlais instead of trying to do something like make peace.



#210
Qun00

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They are people. That's what makes the situation so very tricky. Where does public safety meet human rights?

Because while most mages don't use blood magic. Some do. And to very destructive purposes. (heck some mages use plain old vanilla magic to abusive and destructive uses)

And of course, some mages do get possessed against their will, causing enormous amounts of destruction as well.

Though I must say also Vivienne does not say that every mage is a "murder machine" She does say the rebels are foolish, short-sighted, and even selfish.

She also says that the mages rebelling when they did gave the appearance that they approved of Anders' actions, whether they actually did or not, which hurt the public image of their cause. She even admits that they have legitimate grievances against the their treatment But in her opinion, they went about addressing them in a way that legitimizes the very fears they want to quell.


She describes them as wolves that will attack the sheep if the bars are removed. So yeah, that's pretty much it.

You get that dialogue if you ask Vivienne why she would oppose freedom for her own people. I'm not sure if that option depends on whether her approval rate is low or not.

It's a relatively long conversation, in which Vivienne also rejects the idea when you suggest trying to slowly change people's opinion of mages.

It isn't just a matter of going about it the wrong way. Vivienne simply believes it can't and shouldn't be ever attempted.

#211
MoonDrummer

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Dwarven religion is worse than both.

u wot?

#212
Steelcan

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The people of Red Crossing tried to murder foreign nationals who happened to be much better armed. Then the Chantry decided to exercise its illegitimate military power by giving blatant favoritism to Orlais instead of trying to do something like make peace.

your ability to rationalize blatant elven imperialism is impressive, I will give you that
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#213
Xilizhra

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u wot?

It literally declares a bunch of people to not be people.

 

 

your ability to rationalize blatant elven imperialism is impressive, I will give you that

I'm not supporting the war itself, I'm against the Chantry doing things it shouldn't have been able to do. And the genocide, of course.



#214
Boost32

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The people of Red Crossing tried to murder foreign nationals who happened to be much better armed. Then the Chantry decided to exercise its illegitimate military power by giving blatant favoritism to Orlais instead of trying to do something like make peace.

They attacked invaders who murdered another citizen from Red Crossing, after they were killed the elves razed Red Crossing and marched until they reached Vsl Royeaux, they desacretaded Drakon's tomb and sacked Val Royeaux, after they did those atrocities the Chantry declared a Exalted March, don't try to make the elves look like innocents, they were the agressors.
Its funny when you said they didn't tried anything to make leave, because I don't remember the elves doing anything too.
And you should condone the human genocide that the elves tried to do.
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#215
MoonDrummer

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It literally declares a bunch of people to not be people.

Gotta cut out that gangue.

#216
MisterJB

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For the former, the Inquisition repudiated the mage rebellion. For the latter, Venatori. Most of them seem to narrowly favor the mages.

 

 

They absolutely are. All blame ascribed to them for the rebellion, with the assumption that the rebellion was unjust, is the product of idiots (as opposed to the Venatori thing, which may be more legitimately criticized).

"Everyone who doesn't agree with me is an idiot and their opinion is invalid"

Never mind that describes the overwhelming majority of Thedosians.

 

I actually have dialogue to post here.

Lysas:The Templars broke away too. Isn't that worse? They took an oath. And yet they call it the mage rebellion. We're the ones they hate.

 

Fiona: All hope of peace died with Justinia. Most of Thedas blames us for her death.

 

(and there is more but my DAI is updating for the multiplayer expansion so, I can't go check right now)
 

 

 

When I arrived, a crowd of citizens in Jader were pressed up against the hall of a local noble. They demanded the nobles give them the man accused of being an abomination, Noam Willit, for "justice." Willit came out, not wishing his hosts to suffer, and they swarmed him for his courage.

I stepped between him and the crowd, and the sight of a templar's armor brought the people back to their senses. I persuaded them to leave the matter to us. It is good thing I did, as Willit is no abomination, only a mage newly come into his powers. He is timid but grateful, and willing to begin his training when we return.

Ser Barris

 

A situation is unfolding in the Nevarran city of Cumberland, location of the College of Magi--which, until the outbreak of the Mage Rebellion, was the philosophical heart of the Circles of Magi. Now mostly abandoned, it has become the home to a number of mage refugees. This has drawn the ire of local citizens, and mobs are threatening to assault the college and burn it to the ground, with Duke Sandral Anaxas doing nothing to stop them. Inquisition agents suspect that Venatori agents are behind the mobs, looking to recover artifacts from the college once its magical defenses are breached.

 

(The involvment of Venatori is irrelevant because if people did not hate mages to begin with, they wouldn't have been able to incite them to becoming a lynching mob)

 

Hasmal’s Circle sustained significant damage during the uprising. Rather than follow the Lord Seeker, many of our Templars elected to remain and deal with the aftermath, but our resources are limited. Furthermore, we have loyalist mages with us. Hasmal’s people would happily throw them to the wolves even though they had nothing to do with the rebellion. As it stands, I fear we may fail in our duty to protect them.

 

 

A report given to Commander Cullen:

We arrived in Perendale to find that the mages had indeed barricaded themselves inside their former Circle. They met us with some hostility on entry, but the mages were small in number and their defense easily dispelled. Upon questioning, we discovered that the mages had remained in Perendale following the uprisings. With increasing hostility from the general public, they retreated to the Circle for safety. They appealed to us for aid. It is the opinion of the Order that these mages are not a threat; we have brought them to the Inquisition so that they might aid our cause.

Had we not interceded, the danger these mages posed to the public—or the public to the mages—could easily have ended in bloodshed.

Knight-Captain Briony

 

 

 

We found several murdered mages just off the road. If the victims were blood mages, there were no obvious signs—no cuts on the palms or the like—but it's difficult to say. The victims appear to have been stabbed. It's possible maleficarum are responsible, using their fellows to power some ritual. It's also possible these were former Circle mages, killed by ordinary men over hearsay.

 

In the face of this, do you have any evidence beyond

 

 

The public is never shown to trust the Inquisition any less.

 

 

 


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#217
Xilizhra

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They attacked invaders who murdered another citizen from Red Crossing, after they were killed the elves razed Red Crossing and marched until they reached Vsl Royeaux, they desacretaded Drakon's tomb and sacked Val Royeaux, after they did those atrocities the Chantry declared a Exalted March, don't try to make the elves look like innocents, they were the agressors.
Its funny when you said they didn't tried anything to make leave, because I don't remember the elves doing anything too.
And you should condone the human genocide that the elves tried to do.

Why are you trying to claim human genocide? This was never alluded to. I also have no idea why the sacking of Val Royeaux keeps getting brought up as some kind of atrocity when taking enemy cities is sort of the point.


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#218
Xilizhra

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"Everyone who doesn't agree with me is an idiot and their opinion is invalid"

Never mind that describes the overwhelming majority of Thedosians.

It's entirely possible that the overwhelming majority of Thedosians are idiots. Thankfully, it's probably a cultural problem.

 

 

I actually have dialogue to post here.

Lysas:The Templars broke away too. Isn't that worse? They took an oath. And yet they call it the mage rebellion. We're the ones they hate.

 

Fiona: All hope of peace died with Justinia. Most of Thedas blames us for her death.

Hmmm. Given the contradictions to this in Redcliffe itself, it's probably an error of perception or an exaggeration. Or DAI didn't even try to be consistent in its worldbuilding.

 

 

In the face of this, do you have any evidence beyond

Well, three of them don't happen if the Inquisition sides with the mages, which seems to rather strongly indicate that doing so helps a fair bit. It's not perfect, but clearly a step in the right direction, given Leliana's ending.



#219
MisterJB

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The people of Red Crossing tried to murder foreign nationals who happened to be much better armed. Then the Chantry decided to exercise its illegitimate military power by giving blatant favoritism to Orlais instead of trying to do something like make peace.

 

Why should they? The Dales were an heathen nation that steadfastly refused peaceful interaction with humans who had invaded Orlais and sacked its capital, burning everything inbetween.

 


 


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#220
MisterJB

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Hmmm. Given the contradictions to this in Redcliffe itself, it's probably an error of perception or an exaggeration. Or DAI didn't even try to be consistent in its worldbuilding.

"What I like is part of Dragon Age, what I do not like, isn't. Especially if it proves how full of BS I am."

 

Gotcha.

 

 




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#221
Xilizhra

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Why should they? The Dales were an heathen nation that steadfastly refused peaceful interaction with humans who had invaded Orlais and sacked its capital, burning everything inbetween.

They had peaceful interaction until relations broke down on both sides. It's still not the place of a religious institution to prosecute war.

 

 

"What I like is part of Dragon Age, what I do not like, isn't. Especially if it proves how full of BS I am."

 

Gotcha.

Hey, the more I'm right, the less painful it must be for you to accept Leliana's ending, so really, you should be thanking me.



#222
Jaison1986

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"What I like is part of Dragon Age, what I do not like, isn't. Especially if it proves how full of BS I am."

 

Gotcha.

 

 

 

Damn, that's an pretty spot on description of yourself JB. Are you sure you're not Xilizhra lost twin or something? Because you two behave in the same way, just with polar opinions.


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#223
The Baconer

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Mages should be more heavily incorporated into positions of higher-level Chantry enforcers, and allowed to join the institution as part of the priesthood.

 

We need to push the Knight Enchanters for SummerSlam.



#224
AresKeith

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Damn, that's an pretty spot on description of yourself JB. Are you sure you're not Xilizhra lost twin or something? Because you two behave in the same way, just with polar opinions.

 

No that's MWZ :P



#225
MisterJB

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They had peaceful interaction until relations broke down on both sides. It's still not the place of a religious institution to prosecute war.

 

No, they didn't.

"They became increasingly isolationist, posting Emerald Knights who guarded their borders with jealousy, rebuking all efforts at trade or civilized discourse."

 

http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales

Hey, the more I'm right, the less painful it must be for you to accept Leliana's ending, so really, you should be thanking me.

Ok, let us recapitulate.

 

You claim most people within the setting favor mages. However, you fail to present a single line of dialogue.

When I do present multiple evidence of how most people were against the mages, you basically said the game itself is wrong. because it disagrees with you.

 

Then, when I point this out, your response is "I got my ending nahnahnah and you can't do anything about it nahnahnah."

 

So, really I don't think I need to say anything. Your actions speak for themselves.




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