273 réponses à ce sujet

[Geth Supremacy]

Look to Par Vollen to see what happens when beasts run free.

 

Its glorious!  And coming to a town near you!

[RobRam10]

I loved seeing the Venatori mages blasting that Dreadnought.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Er, I am not seeing where "individual thought" is thrown away, except if qamek'd, but if I really were hellbent on escaping then I would at least try to act the part for long enough to earn release rather than stupidly trying something while in custody.

 

Now if you meant to say "(some) individual freedoms," that would be a correct statement, but also one that would apply to living within any society that has laws and some form of government. Obviously, some societies are freer than others, but having such freedoms is of small comfort to the downtrodden. So on that note, despite what I was clearly taught to believe, I do not subscribe to the idea that all of our freedoms are priceless, non-negotiable possessions to be defended to the death -- maybe some of them, but definitely not all. Here, let me put it this way: ... in my eyes, between [the average Tevinter, having greater freedom] and [a viddathari, having greater wealth and legal standing], the latter comes out on top.

 

(And do you seriously believe that the oligarchy that rules Tevinter is anything but an authoritarian regime, itself?)

 

What? the point of the Qun is brainwashing, none of your thoughts will be your own. its literally how it functions listen to iron bull about how he submits to be "fixed" how when he returns to the Qun they will "fix" him again. 

 

"If i wanted to escape" you say that as if you will still retain enough of current self to even consider escaping. whether you believe all freedoms are worth having is irrelevant, you're free to think that way under the Qun even this is taken from you. you have any thoughts that conflict with the Qun at all it is literally drummed into your head that you're broken that you should turn yourself over for re-education. 

 

Your entire Judgement of Tevinter is based on your personal thoughts the ability to think for yourself, you even go to the point that you think this inspite of what you were "taught" under the Qun you do not have the luxury you don't get to think anything other than what the Qun dictates. Under the Qun there's no choice! if your brainwashing doesn't take they turn you into a drooling idiot.

 

this isn't about liberties or rights who's wrong or right, it's about the ability to decide that for yourself, you don't have that under the Qun. your entire argument would not exist under the Qun. 

 

Hence the reference to Giordano Bruno, Burnt alive for standing by a statement that a conflicted with the doctrines of the church. Even that is not the Qun under the Qun merely having such a thought is a crime, you literally would not think anything the Qun did not allow you to and they even have a secret police force that go around finding people who have any thoughts to the contrary and well its brainwashing or the zombie drink. 

 

You seem to take pride in possessing thoughts that are contrary to how you were taught and raised.....and pick literally the only mob in thedas that would take even that from you. 

 

the entire point of the Qun is their is only the Qun, you don't wave a flag like it's some patriotic duty and sing recite a pledge and everybody calls you a one of them they brainwash it's not a decision, they supplant your thoughts with theirs, thats it.

 

the very point the Iron Bull makes is how he thinks, how he act's, is not permitted under the Qun once he returns to par vallon it's brainwashing time! 

[rigron]

If the game would give me a "Send Sera and Vivienne to the Qun and never let them return" option with an epilogue overview of the consequences for those 2 morons I would take the alliance with the Qunari. But it doesn´t, so I don´t see any reason to ally with the greatest enemy of my third greatest ally: the Tevinter Imperium.

[Rifneno]

What? the point of the Qun is brainwashing, none of your thoughts will be your own. its literally how it functions listen to iron bull about how he submits to be "fixed" how when he returns to the Qun they will "fix" him again. 

 

"If i wanted to escape" you say that as if you will still retain enough of current self to even consider escaping. whether you believe all freedoms are worth having is irrelevant, you're free to think that way under the Qun even this is taken from you. you have any thoughts that conflict with the Qun at all it is literally drummed into your head that you're broken that you should turn yourself over for re-education. 

 

Your entire Judgement of Tevinter is based on your personal thoughts the ability to think for yourself, you even go to the point that you think this inspite of what you were "taught" under the Qun you do not have the luxury you don't get to think anything other than what the Qun dictates. Under the Qun there's no choice! if your brainwashing doesn't take they turn you into a drooling idiot.

 

this isn't about liberties or rights who's wrong or right, it's about the ability to decide that for yourself, you don't have that under the Qun. your entire argument would not exist under the Qun. 

 

Hence the reference to Giordano Bruno, Burnt alive for standing by a statement that a conflicted with the doctrines of the church. Even that is not the Qun under the Qun merely having such a thought is a crime, you literally would not think anything the Qun did not allow you to and they even have a secret police force that go around finding people who have any thoughts to the contrary and well its brainwashing or the zombie drink. 

 

You seem to take pride in possessing thoughts that are contrary to how you were taught and raised.....and pick literally the only mob in thedas that would take even that from you. 

 

the entire point of the Qun is their is only the Qun, you don't wave a flag like it's some patriotic duty and sing recite a pledge and everybody calls you a one of them they brainwash it's not a decision, they supplant your thoughts with theirs, thats it.

 

the very point the Iron Bull makes is how he thinks, how he act's, is not permitted under the Qun once he returns to par vallon it's brainwashing time! 

 

Well said, good sir.  Well sir.  Down with the qun.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

What? the point of the Qun is brainwashing, none of your thoughts will be your own. its literally how it functions listen to iron bull about how he submits to be "fixed" how when he returns to the Qun they will "fix" him again. 
 
"If i wanted to escape" you say that as if you will still retain enough of current self to even consider escaping. whether you believe all freedoms are worth having is irrelevant, you're free to think that way under the Qun even this is taken from you. you have any thoughts that conflict with the Qun at all it is literally drummed into your head that you're broken that you should turn yourself over for re-education. 
 
Your entire Judgement of Tevinter is based on your personal thoughts the ability to think for yourself, you even go to the point that you think this inspite of what you were "taught" under the Qun you do not have the luxury you don't get to think anything other than what the Qun dictates. Under the Qun there's no choice! if your brainwashing doesn't take they turn you into a drooling idiot.
 
this isn't about liberties or rights who's wrong or right, it's about the ability to decide that for yourself, you don't have that under the Qun. your entire argument would not exist under the Qun.

 

Brainwashing =/= mind-control. It only works and can be resisted to varying degrees (like, 0). If it were some perfect system they would not need to use qamek on anyone. Let's also not forget that actual mind control is doable by demons and blood-magic. You know, those things that are everywhere in Tevinter.

 

Hence the reference to Giordano Bruno, Burnt alive for standing by a statement that a conflicted with the doctrines of the church. Even that is not the Qun under the Qun merely having such a thought is a crime, you literally would not think anything the Qun did not allow you to and they even have a secret police force that go around finding people who have any thoughts to the contrary and well its brainwashing or the zombie drink. 
 
You seem to take pride in possessing thoughts that are contrary to how you were taught and raised.....and pick literally the only mob in thedas that would take even that from you. 
 
the entire point of the Qun is their is only the Qun, you don't wave a flag like it's some patriotic duty and sing recite a pledge and everybody calls you a one of them they brainwash it's not a decision, they supplant your thoughts with theirs, thats it.
 
the very point the Iron Bull makes is how he thinks, how he act's, is not permitted under the Qun once he returns to par vallon it's brainwashing time!

 

 

So? I would still choose them over Tevinter. Somehow I fail to see keeping my mouth shut as too much to ask in return from being lifted up out of slavery. Or poverty. Dare I suggest I might even be too grateful to care? Though I can certainly see how it would terrify the average person here, where whining is a favored pastime.

 

I will listen to what 'Bull has to say about it all soon enough, though I would question the wisdom of recruiting the guy at all, especially when you have even deeper reservations about the Qunari than I do.

[TristynTrine]

I couldn't sacrifice them, we drank together, learned their back stories. Just couldn't do it. F-k the quinari alliance, the chargers>quinari.

[KaiserShep]

Brainwashing =/= mind-control. It only works and can be resisted to varying degrees (like, 0). If it were some perfect system they would not need to use qamek on anyone. Let's also not forget that actual mind control is doable by demons and blood-magic. You know, those things that are everywhere in Tevinter.

 

 

 

So? I would still choose them over Tevinter. Somehow I fail to see keeping my mouth shut as too much to ask in return from being lifted up out of slavery. Or poverty. Dare I suggest I might even be too grateful to care? Though I can certainly see how it would terrify the average person here, where whining is a favored pastime.

 

I will listen to what 'Bull has to say about it all soon enough, though I would question the wisdom of recruiting the guy at all, especially when you have even deeper reservations about the Qunari than I do.

Honestly I'd stay as far away from both as I would a leaky biohazard bag, but if I really had to choose one, I'd probably choose the Qun. The Imperium sounds like an extremely extravagant hellhole where Snidely Whipmages can crawl into people's minds. 

[StrangeStrategy]

Argh, I don't know. Bull is tough, he seems to take it well either way, even if he is a little hurt losing his buddies.

 

His greatest fear is "madness" after all, I figured he'd be happy in the certainty of the Qun.

 

I also reasoned that even if the Chargers die, better them than an entire Qunari Dreadnought and the Qunari on board, while also exiling him from everything he grew up with, which he didn't seem to resent too much. Also, all the Ben-Hassrath missions that occur later concerning Denerim and a Tallis (The Tallis!?) would fail without the alliance. In other words, that'd be a lot of death for the sake of Bull's friends. And Cole somehow read Krems thoughts and said his last thoughts were "Horns pointing up." ... So, they understood.

[sandalisthemaker]

Always save the Chargers. My feelings on the Qun aside, it is the right thing to do.

 

Bull loves his Chargers. It is plainly obvious.

[Starscream723]

His greatest fear is "madness" after all, I figured he'd be happy in the certainty of the Qun.

 

Had some party banter with Solas afterwards, where he worries he'll go savage like other Tal Vashoth. Solas tells him "You still have me, and the Inquisitor". It was quite touching 

 

He seemed pretty damn happy I saved the Chargers to be honest.

[Fardreamer]

In my game, Bull decided to go back to the Qunari at the end of the game. I never did any of his quests. Does he still leave you if you save the dreadnought at the end?

[Fardreamer]

It's a totalitarian religious society, like Israel if they had more advanced technology than the rest of the world and could brainwash people.

Are you kidding? The Qun is a fanatical totalitarian religious society. If anything they represent Islam in our day and age. That seems pretty obvious.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Brainwashing =/= mind-control. It only works and can be resisted to varying degrees (like, 0). If it were some perfect system they would not need to use qamek on anyone. Let's also not forget that actual mind control is doable by demons and blood-magic. You know, those things that are everywhere in Tevinter.

 

 

 

So? I would still choose them over Tevinter. Somehow I fail to see keeping my mouth shut as too much to ask in return from being lifted up out of slavery. Or poverty. Dare I suggest I might even be too grateful to care? Though I can certainly see how it would terrify the average person here, where whining is a favored pastime.

 

I will listen to what 'Bull has to say about it all soon enough, though I would question the wisdom of recruiting the guy at all, especially when you have even deeper reservations about the Qunari than I do.

 

enjoy the coolaide.

[Wulfram]

I think the right choice is to save the dreadnought.  From the pragmatic point of view, keeping the alliance is more valuable.  From a moral point of view, there are probably more people on board the dreadnought.

 

If the destruction of the dreadnought was likely to significantly hurt the Qun, I might have a different view, but it's not.

 

Though my Tal Vashoth let the dreadnought die, because screw the Qunari.

[Rifneno]

I think the right choice is to save the dreadnought.  From the pragmatic point of view, keeping the alliance is more valuable.  From a moral point of view, there are probably more people on board the dreadnought.

No, there are no people on the dreadnought. Just qunari. The only people at risk are the Chargers.

[Fearsome1]

Spared the Chargers, to hell with the Qunari alliance! It sort of helped me make the decision that in high school our sports teams were all known as the Chargers.

[Tevinter Soldier]

I think the right choice is to save the dreadnought.  From the pragmatic point of view, keeping the alliance is more valuable.  From a moral point of view, there are probably more people on board the dreadnought.

 

If the destruction of the dreadnought was likely to significantly hurt the Qun, I might have a different view, but it's not.

 

Though my Tal Vashoth let the dreadnought die, because screw the Qunari.

 

it all boils down to whether you trust the Qunari's "alliance" you have assets in danger, you have "potential assets in danger"

do you trust the cows enough to follow through to give you the support you need, if you doubt it of course you save the chargers. 

[BoogieManFL]

It's a game and the consequences are very simplified, but in reality I would have considered that allying with the Qun could provoke the Imperium, and if I recall they are much closer than the Qun. Could you really rely on the Qun helping in full, or looking at it as a way to weaken the Imperium and the Inquisition and surrounding lands at the same time.

 

While I considered that refusing the Qun in a non direct way (just failing with the plan) made it appear I was willing to do it, it just didn't work out. The benefit is the Qun and the Imperium are still going to be battling each other, so less focused on the Inquisition. If the Qun and Inquisition were to defeat the Imperium, the Qun would probably not stop there and now would have closer lands to build and launch from. Once they felt strong enough, they'd resume efforts to conquer Orlais and Fereldan.

 

If they eventually succeeded, there would be either no Grey Wardens or far fewer, and the Dwarves would lose a lot of surface support and trade (they rely on trade to feed their population I believe) so there would eventually be no one constantly slowing the Darkspawn between blights and the Darkspawn would have unimpeded access to the vast deep roads and would be popping up everywhere all the time.

 

Eventually there would be a blight that wouldn't be stopped and now everyone loses.

[Stelae]

Saved the Chargers.  My Inquisitor told Leliana "Our people aren't expendable; you did the right thing to pull your scouts back at Haven."  So, to suddenly make the Chargers expendable would have been pretty hypocritical. 

 

And I got the feeling that whole mission wasn't about the Inquisition anyhow.  The Qunari offer some nebulous alliance as a pretext for getting everybody to the Storm Coast, sure.  But it's really about whether they can still trust Iron Bull, for them.  Whatever scraps they throw the Inquisition to make it happen or make a show of meeting their commitment are necessary losses - they really want to know whether they have lost control of a Ben-Hassrath.  Qunari make it very clear they think non-Qunari are little better than beasts -- there's no reason to suppose they'll stick to their end of any bargain, given the contempt they hold everyone who isn't them in.  And they aren't a threat to you; they're tied up ******-for-tatting against the Vints.  You don't need them, and you don't need to fear them.

 

Save the Chargers, and Bull's loyalty is no longer divided, you get the loyalty and gratitude of a damned good mercenary force and a 2-IC voiced by Jennifer Hale.  It's a no brainer.

[Fardreamer]

Saved the Chargers.  My Inquisitor told Leliana "Our people aren't expendable; you did the right thing to pull your scouts back at Haven."  So, to suddenly make the Chargers expendable would have been pretty hypocritical. 
 
And I got the feeling that whole mission wasn't about the Inquisition anyhow.  The Qunari offer some nebulous alliance as a pretext for getting everybody to the Storm Coast, sure.  But it's really about whether they can still trust Iron Bull, for them.  Whatever scraps they throw the Inquisition to make it happen or make a show of meeting their commitment are necessary losses - they really want to know whether they have lost control of a Ben-Hassrath.  Qunari make it very clear they think non-Qunari are little better than beasts -- there's no reason to suppose they'll stick to their end of any bargain, given the contempt they hold everyone who isn't them in.  And they aren't a threat to you; they're tied up ******-for-tatting against the Vints.  You don't need them, and you don't need to fear them.
 
Save the Chargers, and Bull's loyalty is no longer divided, you get the loyalty and gratitude of a damned good mercenary force and a 2-IC voiced by Jennifer Hale.  It's a no brainer.

That last line is how I feel as well. I need Bulls full loyalty. Sink the dreadnought, and earn his unwavering loyalty. My inquisitor is a manipulative bastard.

[Stelae]

That last line is how I feel as well. I need Bulls full loyalty. Sink the dreadnought, and earn his unwavering loyalty. My inquisitor is a manipulative bastard.

Whereas mine just wanted her squeeze to be happy.  And didn't trust the Qunari.

[Xeyska]

So...is "Sten" in the game or not??

 

Doesn't look like it. All I know is that he gets mentioned in banter.

[Aimi]

Whatever scraps they throw the Inquisition to make it happen or make a show of meeting their commitment are necessary losses - they really want to know whether they have lost control of a Ben-Hassrath.  Qunari make it very clear they think non-Qunari are little better than beasts -- there's no reason to suppose they'll stick to their end of any bargain, given the contempt they hold everyone who isn't them in.

I think that your line of argument is a very defensible one, but have you actually seen what happens if you save the dreadnought and keep Bull in the Qun? He maintains contact with his Ben-Hassrath buddies, starting a massive and intricate chain of spy operations highlighted by extraordinarily close coordination between Inquisition and Qunari agents. During the course of these war table ops, the Qunari risk significant assets - another dreadnought, a huge chunk of their spy network, etc. - for their alliance with the Inquisition.

I mean, yeah, the ultimate idea behind the Qun is the reeducation of everybody in the world who doesn't want to be a Stepford Wife, Inquisition included. But there's no reason to think of the alliance as anything other than a specific military commitment to aid against a specific mutual enemy. You're not getting married. You can reasonably point out that you're not willing to risk Inquisition assets for the Qunari, and there's nothing wrong with that (I choose that option myself more often than not for exactly that reason) but it's not like the Qunari don't hold up their end of the alliance.