273 réponses à ce sujet

[OHB MajorV]

I'm not sure anyone has pointed out that making bull become Tal'vashoth upsets him greatly. You're essentially telling him he can never go home. Neither option is ideal for bull but if think letting the chargers die was more merciful for bull having done both now.

[Pi2r Epsilon]

All you are is someone who picked up an orb. For the politics and militery stratagy you have your advisors.

True enough, which is why it is ultimately forgiven by the advisers whenever the chosen one commits mistakes in politics or military command that show him to be unfit for decision-making. For better or worse, they put you in command, so unless they are willing to replace you or sideline you, something that would carry great costs to the inquisition, they have to acquiesce with your faults.

[Pi2r Epsilon]

I can see how the conversation may have gone with the Inquisitor's handlers..

 

---

 

Scene: the War Room. Actors: Cullen, Leliana, Josephine, Cassandra.

 

Cullen: I called you here because Scout Harding has just reported in from the Storm Coast. The news... isn't good.

 

Leliana: Maker preserve us. Does the Inquisitor yet live?

 

Cullen: He lives, and so does his force. That's the problem.

 

Cassandra: Either you are suffering from Lyrium withdrawal or I need to have my ears cleaned. Clarify!

 

Cullen: I am afraid it is political.

 

Josephine: Not again! I just finished cleaning up after his last mess. You wouldn't believe the promises I had to make.

 

Leliana: I would, Josie.

 

Cullen: Pray tell, interested ears want to know.

 

Cassandra: I wouldn't. This is serious. I want to know the details, Commander Cullen. No more foolishness!

 

Leliana: Spoilsport, Cass.

 

Cassandra: *snort*

 

Cullen: Right. The details. As you know the plan was to demonstrate the feasibility of an anti-Venatori alliance with the Qunari by cooperating with them in a proof-of-concept mission to destroy a combined sea-land force using the newest tactical doctrines. The Inquisitor took his sweet time arriving, gallivanting around the countryside for days, mining ore, hunting bears, and picking flowers while the Qunari waited anxiously for him to arrive, so..

 

Josephine: Cullen, please. We have discussed this before. The Inquisitor does not gallivant, nor is he slow. He is, what was the word we decided to use, Lilly?

 

Leliana: He acts with deliberation and arrives in the nick of time.

 

Josephine: Exactly so. And we always use the correct words, even in private. Loose lips sink ships. Pray continue, Cullen.

 

Cullen: It is funny you should say that. The Inquisitor arrived in the nick of time, just as the Venatori ship was sailing in, and there being no time for extensive planning, he agreed to the Ben-Hassrath's hastily drawn up plan of action. Our forces had to hold two key positions on the beach to prevent Venatori mages on land from interfering with the Qunari dreadnought swooping in for the kill on the Ventatori ship. A simple mission even with the Inquisitor insisting on bringing only minimal forces, as he always does. Remind me why he always does that.

 

Cassandra: He says it is because he is touched by Andraste, Commander Cullen. He is a good man. And one has to admit that he is curiously indestructible. He is the rock upon which the Inquisition stands, a hard man for a hard time.

 

Leliana: A pity he is a blockhead too.

 

Josephine: *giggles* In Antivan politics there is a saying, "As above, so below". Just how hard is he, Cass?

 

Cassandra: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! *snorts*

 

Cullen: I meant that rhetorically. Be that as it may, he split his minimal forces in two, leading the A-team into battle against one position while the undisciplined escapees from a mental asylum that made up the B-Team, namely The Iron Bull's chargers, took the other position. The Venatori were taken by surprise, so both teams swiftly swept aside the minimal forces defending the positions and prepared to meet the inevitable counterattack from the bulk of the Venatori forces. The dreadnought began its approach and that's when the plan fell apart because of the Inquisitor's meddling. Sorry, that's wrong. Didn't mean it. It's been a long day and I'm cooking in this armour. Stay with me for a moment. I remember this from the Redcliffe incident. Tip of my tongue. Got it. When the dreadnought began its approach, he was divinely inspired to change the plan in a way that might appear a diplomatic faux pas to those of little faith, but reinforces the trust of the faithful.

 

Leliana: Correct, Cullen.

 

Josephine: Don't tell me he cost us the Qunari alliance. I specifically told him to be good and he promised!

 

Cullen: Well...

 

Josephine: He did, did he not? I had so high hopes for playing them against Tevinter. It is no use crying, I guess. I knew he was not versed in diplomacy, but breaking your word in public without a plan? That is such a faux pas.

 

Cullen: It is worse than that.

 

Josephine: Worse?

 

Cassandra: WHAT DID HE DO, COMMANDER?

 

Cullen: I'm not quite sure how to put this, so forgive this soldier for his bluntness. With everything going according to the plan, The Iron Bull's Chargers, who as you will recall were holding the other position, were attacked by a large force of Venatori. One large enough that there could only be one outcome. The Iron Bull assured the Inquisitor that the Chargers were good soldiers and true. They'd hold out, if necessary with the sacrifice of their own lives, because the mission comes first. Always.

 

Cassandra: Regrettable, but these things happen in war, and that is sound military thinking.

 

Cullen: The Inquisitor disagreed. He said, "I'm not sacrificing anybody for the Qun!", and ordered The Iron Bull to sound the retreat.

 

Leliana: He did not!

 

Cassandra: *snorts*

 

Josephine: I have got a bad feeling about this.

 

Cullen: He did. As you said earlier, Lady Montilyet, loose lips sink ships. Unopposed, the Venatori mages set fire to dreadnought, the very thing the land operation was intended to prevent. I say sink, but it would be more proper to say that it exploded. All hands assumed lost, including the Ben-Hassrath assigned to it. Dreadnoughts carry crews of hundreds of rowers and soldiers, all lost because of the Inquisitor's desire to save the Chargers.

 

Josephine: Far be it from me to correct you, Commander Cullen, but that is not a problem or a diplomatic faux pas. That is a catastrophe.

 

Cullen:  Only the Ben-Hassath liason on the shore survived. The mission was a complete failure, and not only is the Qunari liason rejecting alliance with us on the grounds that we acted in bad faith, he considers us incompetent too. Scout Harding didn't understand the Inquisitor's actions, but she is loyal and didn't question them. Still, she's got to wonder, as has the rest of our forces on the Storm Coast. There's no way to cover this up completely.

 

Cassandra: Kill the liason, Leliana?

 

Leliana: Unless the Inquisitor was astute enough to realize what needed to be done in the immediate aftermath, the liason will already have managed to leave a report in a dead drop. The Ben-Hassrath is a competent organization. Killing him after he sent a report would be counterproductive. Cassandra, as the one who knows the Inquisitor most intimately, do you think he was astute enough to realize the consequences of his actions and take steps?

 

Cassandra: *snorts* Moving on, there's the question of damage control.

 

Leliana: Again. Blessed Andraste, that man is a trial to test he patience of the Maker. It cannot be worse than the cleanup we had to perform after Redcliffe, surely? "Ally with the rebel mages, people will understand". His intentions may be good, but my poor agents were up to their ankles in blood cleaning up after that one.

 

Josephine: Looking on the positive side, few people trust the Qunari, so whatever story we decide to spread will likely be accepted amongst our allies, at least in public.

 

Cassandra: So long as they don't have to hear anybody telling tales about how poorly we treated our potential allies.

 

Josephine: We don't have another Redcliffe scenario here, Cassandra. It will hopefully not be worse than dealing with the blowback from the Adamant decision. Moreover

 

Cullen: That was bad enough. I am still having to deal with morale problems from that one. The quality of recruits is way down.

 

Josephine: MOREOVER, I am sure our brave soldiers will be heartened by how the Inquisitor cares about even the least of them. Surely that's good for morale.

 

Cullen: So long as the soldiers don't start thinking of the implications of fighting a war under the command a leader who doesn't understand the realities of war.

 

Cassandra: Or a leader who does understand the realities, but chooses to ignore reality in favour of his own delusions? I wonder which is worse.

 

Leliana: ENOUGH! Andraste would weep to hear your whining. You should know better, Cullen! And you, Cass! The Inquisitor may be an idiot, but he is OUR idiot. We needed a symbol, and he provided it. We made him what he is, and he has proven his worth on the field of battle a dozen times. He isn't a general and he isn't a leader. He is, let's face it, a trial and an annoyance who is ruled by his whims and his emotions, but he is - Maker help us - the living and breathing symbol of the Inquisition. Unless any of you happen to have another stranger with a magic rift-closing orb implanted in his hand?

 

Cullen: Well, we could ask Solas to find one... You never know. He always seems to know everything.

 

Leliana: NOT FUNNY! The Inquisitor just needs to be managed. We knew - sweet Maker, we learned that quickly enough - that he's all balls, no brain. Cassandra, taking that lost puppy in hand was YOUR responsibility. Why is he not under your control yet? You should have him eating out of your hand by now, grateful for your attention and willing to please.

 

Cassandra: *snorts* These things take time... Anyhow, it was Josephine's idea. And I told you it was a bad idea. Romantic nonsense. Do you think I wanted to become involved with such a ruggedly handsome man ruled by his emotions rather than his head? I agreed to do it for the Inquisition, just don't expect me to like doing this...devious...thing.

 

Leliana: We aren't asking you to like it, but to shut up and soldier.

 

Cassandra: *snorts*

 

Josephine: Let us not cast blame. We are in this together. A better question to ask ourselves before we decide how to do damage control might be, why did he do this?

 

Cassandra: Emotions, undoubtedly.

 

Josephine: Indubitably, but which?

 

Cullen: Friendship with The Iron Bull, perhaps?

 

Leliana: Another possibility would be friendship with some of the Chargers? I heard from Maryden that he's been spending time drinking with the Chargers and holding long conversations with Krem, the Chargers' second in command, as well as The Iron Bull.

 

Cullen: Now that you mention it, he has been visiting the practice yard more often the last few weeks while the Chargers were practicing. When I asked the drill master, he told me that the Inquisitor was teaching their archer, Dalish, some bow tricks he learned as a child. He even brought his own bow for demonstration purposes, I'm told. Very considerate of him, I think.

 

Leliana: According to my sources, that's not a bow, she's using, that's a staff. Heh. Can the answer really be so simple?

 

Cullen: That's ridiculous. She's an archer.

 

Leliana: It has a knob, Cullen. A magic knob.

 

Cullen: It is a magic elven bow. The knob is some ancient elven magic to aid  the arrow in flight.

 

Leliana: I am an archer, Cullen, and I know a bow when I see it. That's no bow.

 

Josephine: And you know what they say about staffs...

 

Cullen: Uhmm... Oh. *stunned silence*

 

Cullen: The drill instructor said the Inquisitor had complimented Dalish on how well she handled his bow. He did look shifty when he told me, come to think of it. Thought it was something he'd eaten. He was probably under orders from the Inquisitor, the poor guy, torn between obeying his commanding officer and the very Herald of Andraste. He must have been dying to tell.

 

Cassandra: I do not know what they say and I do not understand. Tell me now.

 

Leliana and Josephine: *giggling* A wizard's staff has a knob on the end!

 

Cassandra: LELIANA, make sense!

 

Leliana: We should consider the possibility that he is giving her private lessons not with a bow...

 

Josephine: ...but with his own staff.

 

Cassandra: So what? I use several weapons too. There is nothing wrong in that.

 

Leliana: It means, Cass, that it is possible, even likely, that the Inquisitor is satisfying his brutish lusts on the body of the Chargers' shapely elf mage. You may need to put a bit more effort into your seduction.

 

Cassandra: What!? That cannot be. I've played hard to get. I've quoted poetry. I have even let him catch me reading one of Varric's dreadful smutty books, that I just happened to have upon me for perfectly good reasons that are nobody's business, to entice him.

 

Leliana: Sweet Andraste... That only works for bards.

 

Josephine: Cassandra, in Antiva, when a woman wants to seduce a man she first...

 

Cassandra: I am not listening.

 

Cullen: I am, Lady Montilyet.

 

[fade to black]

 

Cassandra: *blushing* You call that dancing in Antiva?

 

[fade to black]

 

Cassandra: My ears burn! Surely no proper lady would do that!

 

[fade to black]

 

Cassandra: I think I understand. This is tactics. Leliana trying to make him back off makes him less wary of traps, while making me appear a more attractive prize to be won?

 

[fade to black]

 

Cassandra: Explain again exactly how the fake rival-suitor gambit works?

 

[fade to black]

 

Cassandra: Can that really work?

 

Josephine: Count on it, Lady Cassandra Allegra Portia Calogera Filomena Pentaghast.

 

Cullen: ...and I thought Leliana was the devious one.

 

Leliana: I am. Let me tell you about the Hero of Ferelden one of these days. It is amazing what a song, a demure expression, and a jar of oil can accomplish when properly applied.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Honestly I'd stay as far away from both as I would a leaky biohazard bag, but if I really had to choose one, I'd probably choose the Qun. The Imperium sounds like an extremely extravagant hellhole where Snidely Whipmages can crawl into people's minds.

... and this...

. . . I'm not sure that you guys are quite grasping the argument here. This isn't totalitarianism vs. liberal democracy. This is feudalism or literal empire vs. theocratic communalism. Iron Bull himself makes this point several times - for most normal people, daily life in Qunandar is not especially different from daily life in Val Royeaux. Would you call elves in alienages free? Land-bound serfs, are they free? Is a servant whose options are to please his lord or die starving free? You do know Tevinter has actual slaves, yeah? The Qun is hegemonic, sure, but at least it's organized so that its leaders work to benefit its society - by every account we've seen, the tamassrans are benevolent, the military doesn't overstep its role, and the priesthood keeps to itself - and its people have a better quality of life for it. Feudalism, even late feudalism with a middle class, is structured solely for the benefit of the powerful. It's literally organized into tiers of people, each with a legal obligation to serve the next-highest. I'm not gonna say the Qun is great, cuz it's for sure not, but for humanitarianism, it's at least on par with, y'know, its actual contemporaries. At least. You think the jackasses you meet in Halamshiral would hesitate for a second to use qamek or brainwashing on their subjects, if they knew how? Cuz they wouldn't.

Co-sign. Basically what I was saying earlier, but in much better words than mine.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

So anyway, I just played this mission. Save the dreadnought. I cannot think of one good reason to renege the mission plan. Not one.

[Boost32]

The decision of bringing a small force wasnt made by the Inquisitor, it was made by the Qunaris, they said a huge force would be detected by the Venatori, they would alert the ship and the dreadnought couldnt reach the ship in ioen sea. So the Qunaris are ti blame for the small team, not the Inquisitor.

[SgtSteel91]

So anyway, I just played this mission. Save the dreadnought. I cannot think of one good reason to renege the mission plan. Not one.

 

You actually don't want an alliance with the Quanri and want to get one of their dreadnoughts destroyed because it's one less you'er going to fight when they inevitable invade?

[AshesEleven]

I'm a huge Qun fanboy, but for some reason I couldn't let the Chargers die.  A moment of weakness on my part.

 

That being said...yeah the mission didn't really present the choice super well.  I was thinking "Um why can't we just kill these Venatori too?  Here we can split up guys, none of them seem intent on us, we'll keep a few of you here just in case, and go save their butts.  What?  We can't?  Oh...okay."  

[Vikarus]

It's astounding how many people are in favor of a culture that forces anyone who happens to be born a mage to be turned into something worse than a slave. Under the Qun mages have their lips sewn shut, and they live their sad lives on a literal leash. Until I got on the forums I had no idea how many people were in favor of subjugating an entire set of people over an accident of birth.

There is no reason to ally with the Qunari, at all, for anyone who values the basics of human freedom. Be pro-Circle all you want, there's a difference between 'watchful guardians' and 'brutal overseers.' To everyone saying Bull is worse off Tal Vashoth, did you try? His great fear is not that having the Qun will suddenly turn him into a mindless monster, because ... why? Because that's what they're told. It's ridiculous. Not having a religion to oversee you does not instantly make you a mindless monster, and Bull learns this if you free him from the Qun.

He thanks you for helping him become a better man; he appreciates being given a choice with his life in his final speech. His tarrot card is noticeably better if you save the Chargers. It looks worse, yes, but the actual tarot card it is is the Wheel of Fortune. It's a card for good luck, for destiny, for a turning point in someone's life. His card with the Qun? The Ten of Swords, a card for betrayal, backstabbing, defeat, endings and loss.

I honestly have no idea how anyone could think the Qun is better, for Thedas, or for Bull.

[Kenshen]

I both enjoyed and disliked this quest.  IB is one of my favorites and I loved getting to know his squad leading up to this quest but I did not like that we are the ones making this choice for Bull instead of him making it for himself.  Bull has always struck me as being odd he isn't like any qunari we have met.  Part of that is being a spy and do and say what is needed to get in close to do the spy job but it was more than that.  Not sure how else to put it other than he had gone native.  From what we learn of him (if all is true) and of the Chargers it makes sense to save them but since Bull leaves the choice to me I picked what was best for the inquisiton.  If Bull had made the choice himself I would have supported it either way.

[AshesEleven]

I honestly have no idea how anyone could think the Qun is better, for Thedas, or for Bull.

 

Personally I just find the Qun fascinating, not "better".  Just a different philosophy with different positives and negatives. 

 

In my mind, the Qunari are definitely antagonists, but they're the kind I can respect and understand.  Like in DA2, I knew I had to stop the Arishok, but I understood his motives and in the end we had each other's respect.  

[AzureAardvark]

I honestly have no idea how anyone could think the Qun is better, for Thedas, or for Bull.

 

Because they assume what they want and what the Qun would dictate for them would coincide.

 

You see a lot of the same when people romanticize various periods of the (real) past; people tend to assume they'd be at least in the aristocracy, and not a dirt peasant somewhere.

[Camenae]

. . . I'm not sure that you guys are quite grasping the argument here. This isn't totalitarianism vs. liberal democracy. This is feudalism or literal empire vs. theocratic communalism. Iron Bull himself makes this point several times - for most normal people, daily life in Qunandar is not especially different from daily life in Val Royeaux. Would you call elves in alienages free? Land-bound serfs, are they free? Is a servant whose options are to please his lord or die starving free? You do know Tevinter has actual slaves, yeah? The Qun is hegemonic, sure, but at least it's organized so that its leaders work to benefit its society - by every account we've seen, the tamassrans are benevolent, the military doesn't overstep its role, and the priesthood keeps to itself - and its people have a better quality of life for it. Feudalism, even late feudalism with a middle class, is structured solely for the benefit of the powerful. It's literally organized into tiers of people, each with a legal obligation to serve the next-highest. I'm not gonna say the Qun is great, cuz it's for sure not, but for humanitarianism, it's at least on par with, y'know, its actual contemporaries. At least. You think the jackasses you meet in Halamshiral would hesitate for a second to use qamek or brainwashing on their subjects, if they knew how? Cuz they wouldn't.

I Liked your post but it didn't feel like enough... *Applause*

[teh DRUMPf!!]

You actually don't want an alliance with the Quanri and want to get one of their dreadnoughts destroyed because it's one less your going to fight when they inevitable invade?

 

Because that one dreadnought is the Achilles heal of a massive military force? Seems legit.

 

To say nothing about agreeing to undertake the mission when you do not want an alliance.

[SgtSteel91]

Because that one dreadnought is the Achilles heal of a massive military force? Seems legit.

 

To say nothing about agreeing to undertake the mission when you do not want an alliance.

 

Works if you like to play as an Assquisitor who wants to troll the Qunari.

[Vixzer]

It's the demand of the Inquisition that the Qun sucks it. As far as I can tell, I haven't lost anything particularly meaningful after the destruction of the Qunari dreadnought. Seems to me that only the oxmen lost.

 

The main reason for my Inquisitor to choose the Charges (besides liking them) is that, allying with the Qunari would give them even more freedom to act/spy/influence Thedas, in the long term this so could bite the Inquisition (and the rest) back in the butt it is not funny.

 

All that talk with IB about the brainwashing... that is scary... quite scary...

 

That, without any doubt, cannot happen, lets keep them blocked in a endless conflict with  the "Vints" and without any backing/alliance with the Inquisition unless we want them to start getting ideas of spreading the load of bull (pun intended) that is the Qun.   They might want to do so even without any Inquisition support but what stays their hands is that they know that the mother of all Exalted Marches would be called (by my Inquisitor at least) if they so much as try to invade/convert the rest of Thedas... There will not be one Qun follower left standing at the end.

[Little Princess Peach]

I saved his charges they are like Bulls family, in my opinion the Qunari are the ones that lost out

[SgtSteel91]

I really find it weird that there's no mention of an attack on Denerim if you don't ally with the Qunari since you stop an invasion fleet heading there when you do ally with them. 

 

My only guess is that the Qunari just fight the Venatori by themselves and either that invasion fleet is destoryed or directed to the Qunari instead of Fereldan.

[Vixzer]

Saved the chargers. Couldn't care less about the the Qunari... If anything they are a bigger threat than corypheus!

 

You can be sure of that, long term, this is not the last time we hear of the Qun, war will come, one way or another because they do not accept being quiet over Par Volen and seat over their hands...

 

Maybe in a DLC called "Par Volen - War" ?

[Kinsz]

This is a vid of someone sacrificing the Chargers , Bull's reaction at the end  is telling , i saved the Chargers and he seemed very happy in the end but in this video .....not so much which tells me what he really wanted.

 

[DukeH]

There's a lot of armchair quarterbacking in this thread because we all know the Inquisition wins.  Without that knowledge, and knowing that you have red templars, disappearing Grey Wardens, a possible Arch-Demon dragon, and a civil war in Orlais, I'd argue that choosing a small band of condottiere over an alliance with a true power would be the asinine decision.  This is reflected (somewhat poorly) by the zero influence you get by retaining the Chargers versus the influence score you for the Qun (and all the subsequent Qun missions).

 

In addition, the argument that you're allowing great Qun intelligence in Fereldan seems wrong.  What is happening is that the Qun are showing their pre-existing assets so if there's ever a future war with the Qun, Fereldan would be in better shape to sweep up these agents.  It would be more difficult for the Qun to replace those assets than whatever assets Leiliana may expose to the Qun in those war table missions.

 

And a thumbs up for pointing out how ludicrous it is to compare Fereldan to a democracy, we're talking more Dark Middle Ages.