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Demands of the Qun options!


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#151
Disreiley

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In other words, you are unworthy of alliance and your alliance partners will swiftly discover this.

 

Alliances where only one party is willing to sacrifice to achieve common goals or where one party actively works to ensure that casualties or sacrifices are borne by their alliance partner seldom last, and they poison the diplomatic waters where future alliances are concerned. Soon you'll be left with only alliances of necessity.

It's hardly about the worthiness of the Inquisitor. The Ben-Hassrath offered the alliance out of convenience, and it seems, according to what Sten and Iron Bull have said in the games, that the Ben-Hassrath doesn't really seem to be an organization that would think twice about turning on their word if it furthered the spread of the Qun. It seems more like it comes to a choice can you trust the Ben-Hassrath. Can you trust that once the crisis with the Rift isn't over, they wont see that as an opportunity to spread the Qun by force, and even worse use their alliance with the inquisition as a ploy to do so? Using their alliance with the herald of Andraste to make people think the Qun is what the maker wishes. Why else would the Herald have formed an alliance with the Qunari if their maker frowned on the Qun? And as Iron Bull alluded to, the powers that be in the Qunari society aren't above spin doctoring to make their stance seem more powerful. (such as claiming to have ancestry of dragons to make them seem more fierce)

 

Bottom line the Ben-Hassrath are untrustworthy, and they aren't worthy of an alliance with the inquisition. 


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#152
Fantazm1978

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This irritated me how I fast travelled to the coast and despite not choosing to go there seemingly got teleported to the elf dude to start this mission. I'll start it when I'm ready to thanks.



#153
Gaesesagai

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I don't know if I commented on this topic or another similar one tha vanished but whatever, 5 pages in and I'm done lol.

I always choose to save the Charges, because there's no way for any rational individual to trust the qunari society. An alliance with them would be potentially disastrous. They do mimic pretty well being "nice" when it suits them.

As for the more meta conversation taking place here, I think one aspect summarizes it: some people are in favor and turn to the the qun for the same reason some people are in favor and turn to religion in real life; they're not capable of thinking on their own and need someone to tell them what to do, what to think, how to act, what's good and what's wrong, etc. Of course, religion in real life has far more insidious ramifications and justifications, but this is one aspect I feel explains the gushing over how cool* the qun is.


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#154
Rifneno

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Turning down an alliance is one thing. Creating another enemy (by granting your main enemy victory) is simply asinine.

An excellent point I read someone make on this matter a week or two ago; the Qunari's intel was bad and they refused to let the Inquisition help in any way that could've prevented this situation, and now they want my men to pay the price when all the mistakes have been theirs.  If that's their idea of an alliance, they can kiss my ass anyway.


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#155
SandiKay0

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If you really think about it, the ben hassirath(sp?) Are the thinkers of the qunari. However what I wanted to say was that I think it was a test for The Iron Bull, they realized that he was lost when the assigned him to act like a Tal Vashoth in orlias. They just didn't know how much further they could push him. You saw his indescition when he was telling the inquister about the alliance, which said to me he didn't really believe it was a true alliance, that the qunari was making a power play that would bite the inquistion later.
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#156
Rifneno

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If you really think about it, the ben hassirath(sp?) Are the thinkers of the qunari. However what I wanted to say was that I think it was a test for The Iron Bull, they realized that he was lost when the assigned him to act like a Tal Vashoth in orlias. They just didn't know how much further they could push him. You saw his indescition when he was telling the inquister about the alliance, which said to me he didn't really believe it was a true alliance, that the qunari was making a power play that would bite the inquistion later.


I didn't get the impression he thought the alliance was a farce. I got the impression that he believes this is the start of the Qunari expansion and he knows a lot of good people will be destroyed in one way or another under the Qun.

#157
BroBear Berbil

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I sacrificed the Chargers for the greater good that would come of having Qunari spies and ships at my disposal. It was a no-brainer, and I don't miss Bull's team of misfits.



#158
elrofrost

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First of all, the mission choices suck. Considering that the bad guys are right down the hill from you. It would be a simple thing to run down yourself and take them on.

 

This is one of those missions that you are doomed to fail regardless of what your choices are. But I picked the Chargers. I mean, com'on - any merc group that has a tranny as one of it's leaders gets my vote. ;)



#159
SandiKay0

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He seemed to be unsure when he was telling the inquisiter about the mission is all I meant. I added my opionion on the reason why. He sounded like he was troubled you get to ask about it. But it sounded like he was trying to convince himself more than anything.

#160
Apophis123

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they brainwash people and turn them into mindless zombies if it doesn't take.

probably the most evil organisation in thedas, at least in tevinter the people are free to have their own thoughts, in par vallon you would take from them even that.

 

Yeah because the Chantry and the Southern Kingdoms in no way treat people horrible and keep them down *looks at the mages, the elves,surface dwarves,human peasants,Exhalted Marches, and power hungry Mage Lords in the Imperium* . The Qun are bad too but at least they have more equality and only treat mages like dirt rather than multiple groups of people. Personally Id take mistreatment to mages over Mistreatment of mages, people of different faith, less income and racism, seems like the lesser of the evils if i had a gun (bow & arrow) to my head and had to choose.



#161
Spirited Treasure

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We did it once each way. I prefer Bull with the Chargers, he seems to me happier, and we never saw a single Qunari in skyhold, after the other ending.

He prefers the other ending because it would be the natural choice for an inquisitor.

#162
Lazarillo

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he didn't really believe it was a true alliance, that the qunari was making a power play that would bite the inquistion later.

 

See, from a sort of meta-perspective, this is part of the reason that it's hard for me to choose the "alliance". Even outside of Bull's sentiments in the briefing, there's been past discussion in-universe to that fact that the Qunari don't really "get" treaties.  There's no such thing as a true alliance with them, unless you're actually planning to convert.  At best, they're offering to work together towards one specific goal, but it won't carry any meaning to them beyond that, they'll still backstab you the moment it's convenient to them.  Or at least, from our perspective, it would be backstabbing, but from their perspective, I suppose it would be a little different.

 

Granted...it's not entirely "meta", either.  IIRC, there's a note found for the Codex not far from where you initially recruit Bull in the first place, that more or less spells out the Qunari view of "diplomacy".


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#163
Ryzaki

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Saved Chargers.

 

Bull was Tal Vasoth all along. I didn't want him to shackle himself back to the Qun.

 

Plus I was romancing him. Better if he's Tal Vasoth. :P Least I don't have to worry about mixed loyalties.



#164
Tevinter Soldier

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Yeah because the Chantry and the Southern Kingdoms in no way treat people horrible and keep them down *looks at the mages, the elves,surface dwarves,human peasants,Exhalted Marches, and power hungry Mage Lords in the Imperium* . The Qun are bad too but at least they have more equality and only treat mages like dirt rather than multiple groups of people. Personally Id take mistreatment to mages over Mistreatment of mages, people of different faith, less income and racism, seems like the lesser of the evils if i had a gun (bow & arrow) to my head and had to choose.

 

you don't choose anything in the Qun. the Qun changes you. in the south the capacity for change exists. under the Qunari, there is only the Qun.

its not some communal hang out where everyone is equal at all.

 

you do as your told or get the zombie juice. the end.

 

the amount of people who would surrender even the ability to think for themselves frankly scares the **** out of me.


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#165
Pi2r Epsilon

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It's hardly about the worthiness of the Inquisitor. The Ben-Hassrath offered the alliance out of convenience, and it seems, according to what Sten and Iron Bull have said in the games, that the Ben-Hassrath doesn't really seem to be an organization that would think twice about turning on their word if it furthered the spread of the Qun. It seems more like it comes to a choice can you trust the Ben-Hassrath. Can you trust that once the crisis with the Rift isn't over, they wont see that as an opportunity to spread the Qun by force, and even worse use their alliance with the inquisition as a ploy to do so? Using their alliance with the herald of Andraste to make people think the Qun is what the maker wishes. Why else would the Herald have formed an alliance with the Qunari if their maker frowned on the Qun? And as Iron Bull alluded to, the powers that be in the Qunari society aren't above spin doctoring to make their stance seem more powerful. (such as claiming to have ancestry of dragons to make them seem more fierce)

 

Bottom line the Ben-Hassrath are untrustworthy, and they aren't worthy of an alliance with the inquisition. 

Of course what the Qunari offer is an alliance of convenience, with no promises whatsoever about what they'll do once the threat you ally to deal with is over with and with no qualms about betraying their word if doing so would further their political goals more than the short- and long-term harm done to their diplomatic reputation from doing so would.

 

That's what alliances are about, be they alliances of convenience or necessesity. There are no guarantees about the future - only current common goals to be addressed.

 

Diplomats know that. Alliances are temporary agreements between parties made to achieve common goals, and the worth of the alliance is measured by what the parties do to complete the goals and how it affects the situation that it is supposed to address.

 

If the other party is friendly, that's a bonus, but it is certainly not a requirement. Allying with opponents and even traditional enemies to achieve common goals is entirely normal. (Allying with current enemies is much less frequent, but even that can happen when both sides face greater threats than the other)

 

Of course the Qunari will try to use any influence or opportunities they acquire from the alliance to advance their own agendas, just like the Inquisition will - at least with a competent leadership in charge - and this is something you take into account when you decide whether forming an alliance is worth it in the first place.

 

And if, while the alliance holds, you pursue the goals of the alliance, are willing to make sacrifices to achieve the goals, and follow the plans that are agreed on, this is something that other parties will note, as it shows you are a reliable ally that is worth having, while if you do not pursue the goals or are unwilling to make sacrifices to accomplish them, it shows you as an unreliable ally - one that is worth little, as you cannot be trusted to pursue the common goals that were the primary purpose of the alliance in the first place.

 

And doing what the poster I originally responded to said: "I don't mind giving any kind of alliance, temporary or no, some kind of chance. I just won't sacrifice anything or anyone on my end to get it.", that is an approach that will soon show everybody that you are worth little as an ally, as you are in it for the benefits and unwilling to pay the costs, thus poisoning the diplomatic waters with everybody.

 

A worthy ally is one you can count on to do his part, be it small or be it big, in achieving your common goal. Somebody whom you cannot count on to do his is unreliable, and if the reason you cannot count on it is because he deliberately sabotages common plans to avoid risk or shift it to alliance partners, he is unworthy. (Which is the example of bone-headed diplomacy I was answering to in my post.)


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#166
Medhia_Nox

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My biggest deciding factor is my needs.

 

- There is a real difference between a team of specialists (the Chargers) who have already served the Inquisition on several missions before "Demands of the Qun" and nameless, faceless Ben Hassrath in an alliance with the Inquisition.  I already have a growing army of nameless, faceless warriors.  What I need - are specialists who's worth exceeds that of the common man.

 

- The Qunari aren't going to give me anything for this alliance except intelligence.  Yes, that's important, but I already have a spy network.  The Qunari aren't going to gve me gaatlok... they're not going to give me soldiers loyal to me over the Qun... they're not going to significantly strengthen my holdings, because they're enemies of Thedas.  I'm not getting the Dreadnought... the Qunari will decide where, and if, their ships and units assist my battle. 

 

- The Qunari speak one language.  Action.  Through the act of sacrificing their Dreanought (which is "safely" out at sea while I do all the work) I have informed them that "if" they want an alliance - we both sacrifice.  It is interesting that I'm expected to keep MY part in the alliance after sacrificing MY troops... while the Qunari break it after the first hint of a loss.  This is NOT an alliance - the Qunari tell me what to do, and I obey, or they don't stay allies.  That's a farce.

 

- The Qunari will battle Tevinter regardless of the alliance.  That they are so short sighted as to cancel such a thing with a growing power also fighting Tevinter - shows, to me, a massive flaw in Qunari strategies.  I don't need the Qunari to help me specifically, I know they'll always battle Tevinter, because that's what they've always done.  I also know that Tevinter will turn red lyrium against the Qunari LONG before they march south - the Qunari know this too - they won't let Minrathous get the stuff.

 

- While the Qunari are expending vast quantities of resources keeping red lyrium out of Minrathous... they're not expanding.  Tevinter suffers, Qunari suffer... Inquisition grows. 

 

- Lastly, the morale of the people.  Thedas knows I look after Thedas first.  The Inquisition knows I don't abandon Inquisition soldiers to achieve my ends (and let us not forget, our ends were achieved.  That trade was stopped - any notion that Tevinter suddenly stops trying to smuggle the stuff after one failure is ludicrous).  Morale wins wars... bad morale loses wars time and time again. 


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#167
Rifneno

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My biggest deciding factor is my needs.
 
- There is a real difference between a team of specialists (the Chargers) who have already served the Inquisition on several missions before "Demands of the Qun" and nameless, faceless Ben Hassrath in an alliance with the Inquisition.  I already have a growing army of nameless, faceless warriors.  What I need - are specialists who's worth exceeds that of the common man.
 
- The Qunari aren't going to give me anything for this alliance except intelligence.  Yes, that's important, but I already have a spy network.  The Qunari aren't going to gve me gaatlok... they're not going to give me soldiers loyal to me over the Qun... they're not going to significantly strengthen my holdings, because they're enemies of Thedas.  I'm not getting the Dreadnought... the Qunari will decide where, and if, their ships and units assist my battle. 
 
- The Qunari speak one language.  Action.  Through the act of sacrificing their Dreanought (which is "safely" out at sea while I do all the work) I have informed them that "if" they want an alliance - we both sacrifice.  It is interesting that I'm expected to keep MY part in the alliance after sacrificing MY troops... while the Qunari break it after the first hint of a loss.  This is NOT an alliance - the Qunari tell me what to do, and I obey, or they don't stay allies.  That's a farce.
 
- The Qunari will battle Tevinter regardless of the alliance.  That they are so short sighted as to cancel such a thing with a growing power also fighting Tevinter - shows, to me, a massive flaw in Qunari strategies.  I don't need the Qunari to help me specifically, I know they'll always battle Tevinter, because that's what they've always done.  I also know that Tevinter will turn red lyrium against the Qunari LONG before they march south - the Qunari know this too - they won't let Minrathous get the stuff.
 
- While the Qunari are expending vast quantities of resources keeping red lyrium out of Minrathous... they're not expanding.  Tevinter suffers, Qunari suffer... Inquisition grows. 
 
- Lastly, the morale of the people.  Thedas knows I look after Thedas first.  The Inquisition knows I don't abandon Inquisition soldiers to achieve my ends (and let us not forget, our ends were achieved.  That trade was stopped - any notion that Tevinter suddenly stops trying to smuggle the stuff after one failure is ludicrous).  Morale wins wars... bad morale loses wars time and time again.


82964-youre-very-good-you-gif-you-un-8BD


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#168
cim glowing

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I can see how the conversation may have gone with the Inquisitor's handlers..

 

---

 

Scene: the War Room. Actors: Cullen, Leliana, Josephine, Cassandra.

 

Cullen: I called you here because Scout Harding has just reported in from the Storm Coast. The news... isn't good.

 

Leliana: Maker preserve us. Does the Inquisitor yet live?

 

Cullen: He lives, and so does his force. That's the problem.

 

....

 

 

Hilarious.  I lol'd.  :lol:

 

Do you write fan-fic? If so, link me!



#169
Confused-Shepard

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You know guys Nazi Germany was pretty efficient too. Stalin made the trains run on time. Julius Caesar's Rome was a mighty empire of prosperity. Genghis Khan was a mighty warlord who united large parts of the world under a single banner. It doesn't mean that any of these people were decent human beings who cared for the plight of the common man or had a shred of respect for their enemies and considered them little more than roving barbarians. Much like the Qun considers everyone else.

 

Any alliance with the Qunari is temporary. Have Fereldan, Orlais, Rivan, Antiva and the Free Marches become so crippled and weak that I have to ally myself with those horned snakes? I play a female Qunari mage, what happens when they decide I am a huge danger and demand to have my mouth sewn shut? They give intelligence & spies? What the hell are Leliana & Josephine doing then?


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#170
leaguer of one

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they brainwash people and turn them into mindless zombies if it doesn't take.

 

Says the tevinter blood mage...



#171
Tevinter Soldier

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Says the tevinter blood mage...

 

Oh, right because i'm from tevinter i'm a blood mage. *racist*



#172
leaguer of one

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Oh, right because i'm from tevinter i'm a blood mage. *racist*

Then free your slave and give non-mages equal rights.



#173
98m34b7c53

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Whether you know the outcome or not, I can't understand the position of all the anti-Qun folks.  If you were anti-Qun, why did you choose to even start this mission?  If you really wanted nothing to do with the Qun, you would have declined their help when Bull first offered.  Given that, it seems a bit revisionist to try and justify compromising the mission with the justification that you would never be helping the Qun anyways. 



#174
The Baconer

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Whether you know the outcome or not, I can't understand the position of all the anti-Qun folks.  If you were anti-Qun, why did you choose to even start this mission?  If you really wanted nothing to do with the Qun, you would have declined their help when Bull first offered.  Given that, it seems a bit revisionist to try and justify compromising the mission with the justification that you would never be helping the Qun anyways. 

 

Meta-spite. More content.


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#175
Greed1914

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What decided it for me was the feeling that Bull becoming Tal-Vashoth wasn't much of a stretch.  His love for his men was plain, and much of what he did was not what would fly under the Qun.  I'm sure some of it was him trying to not be so obvious as a Qunari agent, but he is also incredibly quick to hand over information, so it's not like he is terribly concerned with people knowing he is a spy. 

 

That said, I think this would have been a better situation where we choose to support/not support whatever he decides.  It was good that he finally had to confront where his loyalties really were, but it seemed pretty weak and not exactly Qunari for him to defer on this.