272 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

@Kendaric:

Don't mistake me, I do think a more varied skill system is desirable. I dislike that I'm married to my staff as a mage and that I can't play a dual-wielding warrior. However, these concerns are minor compared to, say, getting appropriate dialogue options for the kind of character I want to be. They have only a minor effect on the roleplaying dimension. Meanwhile, those things that have a major effect, for instance whether you're a mage or not, or your race, these are well recognized by the game world. Sure, there's room for improvement there as well, but it is way better than in the previous DA games.

 

As for immersion, I do want more where it should be relevant to the story, like you. Things like everyone being immune to red lyrium with no explanation are detrimental to the authenticity of the story, and indeed it would've been a small effort to make it more authentic. For instance, red-lyrium-tainted areas would have been easy to implement and provided another rationale for those "opening up areas" operations. Beyond that, immersion is a huge YMMV area. Personally, I hate having to eat in a cRPG, or when realistic time limits limit my exploration like in the Winter Palace. In this case, I'll accept it because it adds to a tension that should be there, but I dislike it nonetheless.

[hangmans tree]

@hangmans tree:

I find it funny how some people lament the good old times of good roleplaying and bemoan the newer style with supposedly less substance. You know, I've seen it all. I was there when AD&D came out - I recall how difficult it was to import the rulebooks back then - I've seen the first computer implementations of roleplaying games and followed every major step of crpg evolution since then. And I see what Bioware attempts with DAI as commendable. The flashy combat is just decoration to pull players in, and as for being fast-paced - it's significantly slower-paced than DA2.

Where I agree with you is that the dialogue system is not conducive to depth, because the paraphrasing makes it impossible to adress complex topics in a less than simplistic way. However: which game except Planescape:Torment (and Fallout New Vegas to a lesser degree) has ever done more? Certainly not Bioware's games. I will continue to fight the paraphrasing because of that, but I also see that DAI attempts more meaningful decisions with the tools it has, and it doesn't do too badly.

You find simplicity and uniformisation commendable? I started with pnp rpg long before crpg came to light so for me storytelling and impact of my decisions are the utmost important thing, then the customization. Rules and mechanics visible to the player I can do without, if the rest is high quality and polish. But to detract substential parts of the game and giving nothing in return except bells and whistles? The flashy combat is just that, and for the most part its broken for pc, dont care how it works on consoles, it doesnt work for pc.

In DA2 I would say that reaction time of the player wasnt obstructed by system so it was quicker to assign actions on the fly. Here aside of enemies we have to battle the system/machanics... tell me how did that happen?

 

I do not lament the good old times, I want a progression in the genre, evolution. Some major decisions in recent BW games seems like a dead end... and for the most part they seem to trudge deeper and deeper untill they hit a wall. You cant break the wall with your head you know?

[Ieldra]

OK, hangmans tree, I may have mistaken you. Would you mind saying what in particularly you speak of when you say "uniformization" and "simplification"? If you speak of the sidequests on the maps (as opposed to character quests and other major optional content triggered alongside the main plot), I'm there with you. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you mean.

 

If you mean that there aren't as many permutations of outcomes in specific quests as in DAO, I'm there with you too. For some reason, though, that didn't adversely affect my experience with the game. But thinking about it, yeah, something like "Captured!" in DAO would've been nice to have in DAO, and I guess I'll miss it in the long term more than right now.

[Proposition_Joe]

One of the lighter RPG´s i have played, fun i guess but not a story/game that i carry with me for long.

[ChrisTheInquisitor]

The Mass Effect trilogy is another perfect example of what a real role-playing game is.

[Elhanan]

You are talking of immersion. I agree that's a very important element of any storytelling video game, but it is independent from the roleplaying dimension, regardless of whether you see the mechanisms or the character expression as more important. You can have interaction that feels so natural that you feel you are in the fictional world without ever being able to define any aspect of your character.
 
As for freedom in designing your character, that's of course always desirable, and there is indeed no limit on the amount of freedom you might reasonably wish for. Yet, both the story and the resources needed to implement the mechanics and anchor them in the world present constraints. You need to make your world reactive to the player's design choices, or the design choices will have no meaning. That's why it isn't simply a matter of "giving you options". Those options have to be used. A human GM can do that on the fly, but video games can't, and creating opportunities to express a multitude of skills in meaningful ways in advance is quite a lot of work. The same work, as I see it, is rather better applied to giving the players the opportunity to make meaningful decisions about who their characters are. Fallout: New Vegas did both, and the result is really spectacular. The price it pays for that is also very visible: Bioware's stories are way better presented and have much more emotional impact.

Not only immersion, but the telling of the tale. In DAO, the poem expressed by Hespith in the background was not that immersive (started to hear her at a great distance), but was chilling and memorable. In DAI, there are some similar but lesser moments heard in banter and NPC dialogue, as well as depicted in some cut-scenes. In Skyrim, the books and journals scattered about could heighten the effect of the stories; same here in DAI. Etc.

Older RPG's I still adore had no choices at all, but still told grand stories. While I enjoy the more current additions, these are not required for me to enjoy the telling of the tale.

[Ieldra]

The Mass Effect trilogy is another perfect example of what a real role-playing game is.

I found ME's roleplaying dimension - especially in ME3 - to be one of the most limiting of any game that aspired to be one. ME3 did provide meaningful decisions, but it was also a perfect example...of what a roleplaying game shouldn't do: define character traits of the player character which aren't necessary for the plot, completely without the player's input and without being upfront about it at the start of the story. Giving Shepard the traits I wanted him to have was never easy, but ME3 took the character I made in the earlier games...and destroyed his soul. That should tell you enough about how much I disagree.

[theluc76]

Leldra your point of a RPG really boils down to choices in dialogues or situations with a already made protagonist that you dress up, you still play BioWares protagonist not yours. a bit like Heavy Rain.

[Inquisitor007]

Game is fantastic

 

Just got the Dragon's Bane achievement 

 

[Cyonan]

Leldra your point of a RPG really boils down to choices in dialogues or situations with a already made protagonist that you dress up, you still play BioWares protagonist not yours. a bit like Heavy Rain.

 

That's all that DA:O is too, when you get down to it.

 

I mean no matter what you will become a Warden, you will make various "X or Y" choices for your army, then you will save Denerim and stop the blight. You will always be the big hero no matter what.

 

You can just choose between being a nice hero or a jerk hero who thinks that being the hero overwrites society's pathetic ownership laws.

[theluc76]

Cool Hawke911, the achievement give you something ??

 

 

Sorry Cyonan, Nope wrong again.

[Cyonan]

Sorry Cyonan, Nope wrong again.

 

Usually when somebody disagrees with a person, they explain why.

 

Unless of course they don't actually have any points to make and simply want to feel special for "winning" an internet discussion.

[theluc76]

its been explained already by many, search the forums. There is no winning or losing on internet. If people prefer to remain blind, their choice.

 

Tomorrow my Honda will still be the same even if i call it a Mustang 

[Cyonan]

its been explained already by many, search the forums. There is no winning or losing on internet. If people prefer to remain blind, their choice.

 

Tomorrow my Honda will still be the same even if i call it a Mustang 

 

If I wanted other people's reasoning, I wouldn't have replied to you.

 

Your argument seems to boil down to DA:I not being a RPG because you have no stat allocation and can't wield an axe as a mage, and that somehow makes "everything pre-set".

[Bladenite1481]

That's all that DA:O is too, when you get down to it.

 

I mean no matter what you will become a Warden, you will make various "X or Y" choices for your army, then you will save Denerim and stop the blight. You will always be the big hero no matter what.

 

You can just choose between being a nice hero or a jerk hero who thinks that being the hero overwrites society's pathetic ownership laws.

And you are still more meaningful than a lime green lamp post. Go look at your nameplate in game, is your picture there?  Nope, its a green hand. Tell your advisers how well they did and watch them compliment the cause, not you. Ask Dagna why she came, you pay her well and ooh look at your green hand.

 

Your character has no agency and doesn't matter at all in this game, you were lucky enough to grab a lime green metallic ball as it rolled on the floor and after that a bunch of idiots called you the Messiah because an elf stuck your hand in green goo. You know why you can be anything? Because it doesn't matter what you are, you could be a walking couch as long as you have the green scar. Nothing is personal, its all built by circumstance. At least DAO gave you the Illusion that you mattered, I never thought I was more than Theda-Jesus whether I liked it or not in DAI. 

 

Much more often than not in DAI, I had choices other than gray, I could go a round about way to make things all good. My team followed me, I wasn't carried by some writ from a divine Seeker and her army. You proactively decide to do something because nobody else can. In DAI, you are conscripted by happenstance and then pushed down a rabbit hole because you have a magical scar. The closest it comes to being personal is Haven, after that..the Illusion falls apart and you're just kicking a dead dog until the credits roll. 

 

So yeah, DAO is on rails, but its hidden a heck of a lot better than DAI is. Giselle flat out tells you, it doesn't matter what you think and it doesnt matter what happened, it only matters what people believe after what they saw. 

 

Like I have said before, its an RPG. It's just a bad one. Good game, crappy RPG. 

[Ieldra]

Your character has no agency and doesn't matter at all in this game. 

I'm having serious trouble taking you seriously after all those decisions I've made. Didn't you play the game? So, you made those decisions as well, yes?

[Lianaar]

In DAI, you are conscripted by happenstance and then pushed down a rabbit hole because you have a magical scar. The closest it comes to being personal is Haven, after that..the Illusion falls apart and you're just kicking a dead dog until the credits roll. 

And you were who you were in DA:O, because you happend to be one of the only surviving wardens out of a) sheer luck or mercy/plan of Flemmeth.

I really don't see the difference.

Oddly enough it didn't become personal for me until Haven. Till that point my character was confused and had no clue why she isn't just running away. It was at Haven and later that she found her purpose. Reading the letters and seeing the future what made her accept her role. There is one face to the inquisition, the Inquisitor, but wether (s)he is a leader or just a tool of others, a zealout or an opportunist, one to return to ancient traditions, or one for change, is up to you. And that is what role playing is about.

In each role play the environment is given by the plotter/DM, it is how you react to that environment, what is determined by you.

[Bladenite1481]

I'm having serious trouble taking you seriously after all those decisions I've made. Didn't you play the game? So, you made those decisions as well, yes?

I played the game. You can have trouble taking me seriously all you like. Every decision is gray, they wanted to be darker than dark, to hammer home the loss and sacrifice of politics and war. But its written badly and I never felt it. You are a symbol and nothing more. You are told this again and again. Do you make decisions? Yeah, you make decisions and they always end up to be about the same no matter what you do. Its ineffectual and void of any impact. 

[theluc76]

Thanks Cyonan, very nice of you.

 

Instead of writing a nice novel, play or re-play the games listed in my signature, see for yourself.

After, in the case you still desagee just keep calling a Yamaha a Harley-Davidson.

 

I wont remove features for you to choose from or dress em up so 3 choices seems like 9

[Lianaar]

It is not like you have the chance to refuse becoming a Grey Warden in DA:O, not like you can say: sorry, but I won't go to Ostagar, I won't drink that blood, I won't go to the tower, but I fight by Duncen's side...

The Inquisitor is a symbol, Giselle pretty much shoves that in your face, but what you do with that is up to you.
Did you have the option in DA:O to NOT use one of the treaties? To not convince someone to side with you? Would these people give a damn about you if you didn't have the scar, oh, I mean treaties? Nah, Orzamar wouldn't even let you in if you didn't have the treaties forcing them. It is the exact same thing.

 

[Medhia_Nox]

@theluc76:  I have played all the games you've listed (minus Aion)... and you're weird little car/motorcycle analogies are pointless.

[Bladenite1481]

And you were who you were in DA:O, because you happend to be one of the only surviving wardens out of a) sheer luck or mercy/plan of Flemmeth.

I really don't see the difference.

Oddly enough it didn't become personal for me until Haven. Till that point my character was confused and had no clue why she isn't just running away. It was at Haven and later that she found her purpose. Reading the letters and seeing the future what made her accept her role. There is one face to the inquisition, the Inquisitor, but wether (s)he is a leader or just a tool of others, a zealout or an opportunist, one to return to ancient traditions, or one for change, is up to you. And that is what role playing is about.

In each role play the environment is given by the plotter/DM, it is how you react to that environment, what is determined by you.

The illusion of choice is given to you as Allistair asks you what to do and you choose to move forward and proactively do something about what is around you. Where's the illusion in DAI?

 

You are always of a tool of others, the only reason you exist is because the Inquisition exists. Role playing is about whatever you want to make it, I don't say its not a RPG, I say its a bad one. If you disagree that's fine, but arguing the semantics and telling me what a RPer is isn't going to win you any awards and it doesn't make you right. Me talking about what I think does not make me right either, but I felt more like something being carried by the Inquisition rather than leading it. For me, this was because too many choices were taken away from me. Boat or Chargers..stupid choice, no reason for it. Hawke or whoever, again, felt forced and covered in plot armor because story and darnit you will feel loss and sacrifice. Too many decisions were gray and I had no way to make them white or black. It's like bowling with bumper lanes, no matter what choice you made the actual impact was very small and you always seemed to lose something. No, I don't think thats realistic, I think its easy. 

 

I never felt in danger, I never felt like what I did was changing anything because everything around me stayed the same. At least DAO gave you the illusion of having more than one shade of decision. Sometimes it seemed like I was almost doing the righteous thing or the being a true villain. You can never be anything in DAI but in the middle, because those are the only choices granted to you. There are many who had a great memorable experience and I think that is awesome. I and many others felt nothing, it was extremely forgettable. 

[Lianaar]

I do agree with one point, I wish there were more times when there was a threat of losing things and stepping back. That would have made the game better. But I disagree, that DA:O is a better RPG then DA:I. The same mechanisms were used, just differently. I felt way more capable of expressing the personality I wanted my character to enbody in this game, then it that one. And here we come down to preferences. I dislike black-white, I am all for grey.

[Bladenite1481]

It is not like you have the chance to refuse becoming a Grey Warden in DA:O, not like you can say: sorry, but I won't go to Ostagar, I won't drink that blood, I won't go to the tower, but I fight by Duncen's side...

The Inquisitor is a symbol, Giselle pretty much shoves that in your face, but what you do with that is up to you.
Did you have the option in DA:O to NOT use one of the treaties? To not convince someone to side with you? Would these people give a damn about you if you didn't have the scar, oh, I mean treaties? Nah, Orzamar wouldn't even let you in if you didn't have the treaties forcing them. It is the exact same thing.

 

The difference is, you went and found the treaties, you found them for that exact purpose. What you are describing is not happenstance, its cause and effect. In DAI you accidentally grab the lime green metallic ball rolling on the floor and then get kicked through a portal. Where exactly did you mean to do that?

[Medhia_Nox]

@Bladenight1481:  Well, since we're doing this - saying: "It's a bad RPG" doesn't make you right either.

 

Saying: "I don't like it - here's why."  That totally valid though.

 

Note:  The scene when Haven is burning and you try to save everyone but fail to save some... that was particularly powerful for me.  I lost Minaeve - you probably don't remember her since everything about the game is forgettable... but she is your original creature researcher who tells you about how she had compassion for and took care of the Tranquil.  

 

I never felt that in any Bioware game previously... because everything is about worshipping PC micromanagement.