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Why Arcane Warrior is needed and why gimping him isn't the right solution...


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#1
TheThirdRace

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When you design a game, you need to think about every type of players. With that in mind, it's "normal" and wanted to have 1 character that is easier to play for the casual gamers.

When the Turian Ghost Infiltrator or the EDI bot made their way into ME3 MP, everybody were crying for nerfs because of the "I win" button. The reality was a bit more grim than that though. Only a handful of players (5-10%) were able to truly take advantage of those characters, TGI and EDI were still dying just as much as the next character. The completion rate for a game were at best <50%, even on Bronze, even with an "I WIN" button the size of the sun. So while those characters were grossly overpowered, they didn't have a great impact in the end for more than 95% of the player base. What I've learned from this is that OP characters are not only OK but needed for the masses.

That doesn't mean the Arcane Warrior couldn't have some abilities a bit reworked. Right now it has a lot of strengths and no weaknesses. On top of that, most of his abilities synergize better than everything else. So what could be done to curb the balance of the Arcane Warrior without gimping him too much either.

First, Pull of the Abyss is by far the best crowd control spell of the game because it drags every enemy in a tight spot. Combine that with Fade Cloak (AOE 1000% damage on tight group) and Spirit Blade (AOE 500% damage on tight group) and you have some hell of a combo. To reduce the efficiency of the combo, you could easily reduce PotA's duration from 12 to 4 seconds, cooldown from 32 to 20 seconds and mana from 65 to 50. These changes would limit the Arcane Warrior in his options as he would need tight timing to pull off a PotA + Fade Cloak + Spirit Blade combo while not overly gimping any of his powers. Note that you could now cast PotA much faster now to compensate for the lost duration. On top of that, it's not affecting in the slightest his team efficiency since your teammates are attacking in the first few seconds anyway. In fact, it would force the Arcane Warrior to synergize more with his teammates instead of doing it all by himself.

Second, Fade Shield is a bit too efficient compared to Barrier. Fade Shield is instant and can be constantly up, Barrier is 1 time and can't be maintained constantly for the entire duration of the game. Since we already lowered the potential damage from a PotA combo, let's just reduce the potential effectiveness of the Barrier from 2000 to 500 points. Why? Let's get into numbers...


A normal Barrier has 2000 points, 3000 with the 50% bonus, and stays up for about 10 seconds (10% decay/second). When a Keeper or an Elementalist cast Barrier on you, it's 2000 points and that's it for 10 seconds. For an Arcane Warrior generating his own Barrier, the Barrier effectiveness is much higher than 2000 point because after dealing enough damage to fill the 2000 points, he can still get extra Barrier if he gets hit. So say over 10 seconds he was dealt 1500 damage and regenerated the full Barrier, the effectiveness is now 3500 points for the same 10 seconds. That's 75% better than normal Barrier which is already freaking good. Reducing the Barrier to 500 points would allow the Arcane Warrior to maintain a smaller Barrier (25%) but with about the same efficiency as a normal 2000 point Barrier.


The 50% bonus Barrier is actually a bad option for the Arcane Warrior because the Barrier's decay is 10% per second. At 2000 points, the decay is 200 points/second which means you need to deal 666 damage/second to keep up a full Barrier. With a 50% bonus to Barrier (3000 points), the decay is 300 points/second which means you need to deal 1000 damage to keep up a full Barrier. By adjusting the Fade Shield's Barrier to 500 points, the decay would be 50 points/second (166 damage/second to keep up) and 75 points/second (250 to keep up). The 50% bonus to Barrier is now valuable instead of being detrimental.


With that said, that means the Arcane Warrior could have 1/4 of a Barrier constantly up, but it's not an "immortality cloak" anymore. With only a Barrier of 750 points at best, your health can now be damaged. Because you can efficiently regenerate that 750 points Barrier, you can also mitigate the damage to your health. Both are now in "balance" with each other instead of being simply an "I Win" button.


Third, Spirit Blade could use a cost increase from 10 to 15 mana just to lower the damage output a bit. More than that and it would be unsustainable mana wise. Note that the change doesn't affect the damage, just the spamming. Currently you can spam Spirit Blade and you regenerate mana faster than you can use it so the 5 extra mana should be just enough so you need to do this in burst of 5-10 casts instead of an all out 500% damage/second.

With those changes, I believe you curb the self reliance of the Arcane Warrior without affecting the efficiency of his team. He'll have to rely more on his teammates and less on himself only. Which is good! You still have a very strong character, but it's now more like a teammate than a lone wolf doing everything on his own.
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#2
Bastion6six6

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I think pull of the abyss is fine, considering it is a non-damaging ability.  It takes an ability slot JUST to group enemies up, thats fine.  I'm fine with the barrier getting nerfed a bit, but nerfing spirit blades mana consumption so that you can't spam it...what?  Spirit blade is more or less AWs DEFAULT attack now.  If anything, nerf the damage it does, don't nerf your ability to use it.



#3
TheThirdRace

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I think pull of the abyss is fine, considering it is a non-damaging ability.  It takes an ability slot JUST to group enemies up, thats fine.  I'm fine with the barrier getting nerfed a bit, but nerfing spirit blades mana consumption so that you can't spam it...what?  Spirit blade is more or less AWs DEFAULT attack now.  If anything, nerf the damage it does, don't nerf your ability to use it.

 

For the reduce "pull" duration of PotA, you get half the cooldown. So while it gives less breathing room for 1 cast, you can cast it twice as much. A good trade off I think.

 

As for Spirit Blade, 5 mana won't impact you unless you spam it a lot. You should use Spirit Blade in bursts (5-10 casts), which means the extra mana shouldn't affect you in that case since you regenerate mana fast enough. It only becomes a problem when you spam it 10+ times in a row. Do you know of any other class that can cast a 500% damage ability 10 times over 10 seconds? I don't and you can still use your staff to attack too you know... On top of that, the Arcane Warrior regenerates mana faster than Spirit Blade can use it so not only the damage is great and you can spam it infinitely but you also "don't use" mana in the process, kinda broken a bit as it should have a minimal drawback.

 

In any case, the numbers aren't important. I only wanted to show how we could reduce the self reliance without gimping the team or reducing the burst damage of the Arcane Warrior.



#4
c3lix

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What is a Arcane Warrior? I only know Knight Enchanter and he is as good as the other classes, rogue can deal 200.000 Damage in 10 seconds to kill a Dragon. A Warrior Tank can also be very powerfull. The only one that isn't is 2h Warrior. All the others are on one level.

 

Edit: Please stop creating posts about nerfing classes in a singleplayer RPG.



#5
TheThirdRace

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What is a Arcane Warrior? I only know Knight Enchanter and he is as good as the other classes, rogue can deal 200.000 Damage in 10 seconds to kill a Dragon. A Warrior Tank can also be very powerfull. The only one that isn't is 2h Warrior. All the others are on one level.

 

Edit: Please stop creating posts about nerfing classes in a singleplayer RPG.

 

Kudos for not reading one bit of the first post, especially for posting in the MP section while talking about SP...


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#6
Bastion6six6

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What is a Arcane Warrior? I only know Knight Enchanter and he is as good as the other classes, rogue can deal 200.000 Damage in 10 seconds to kill a Dragon. A Warrior Tank can also be very powerfull. The only one that isn't is 2h Warrior. All the others are on one level.

 

Edit: Please stop creating posts about nerfing classes in a singleplayer RPG.

I can't tell if this guy is serious or joking

 

8/10


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#7
Anzer

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That's a well thought out post. I won't comment on the balance issues, though.

 

What is a Arcane Warrior? I only know Knight Enchanter and he is as good as the other classes, rogue can deal 200.000 Damage in 10 seconds to kill a Dragon. A Warrior Tank can also be very powerfull. The only one that isn't is 2h Warrior. All the others are on one level.

 

Edit: Please stop creating posts about nerfing classes in a singleplayer RPG.

Surely you can't be serious!

Of course I'm serious...and don't call my Shirley!


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#8
Cirvante

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Pull of the Abyss may be the best CC spell against melee units, but not against ranged enemies. And the latter are arguably more dangerous on the higher difficulties.

 

With a 4 second duration you wouldn't even be able to pull all enemies to the center point, unless you increase the pull speed. There's also the quite annoying bug where all enemies teleport back to their starting position.

 

I agree with nerfing the barrier, though I think that spirit blade's damage should be nerfed instead of increasing the mana cost.



#9
Draining Dragon

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AIU was not hard to play. Only the most incompetent players couldn't survive with the AIU.

I played it. Platinum was like playing the single-player on Casual, until I got sync-killed.

Which, by the way, is not in Dragon Age Inquisition.

#10
Malanek

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When the Turian Ghost Infiltrator or the EDI bot made their way into ME3 MP, everybody were crying for nerfs because of the "I win" button. The reality was a bit more grim than that though. Only a handful of players (5-10%) were able to truly take advantage of those characters, TGI and EDI were still dying just as much as the next character. The completion rate for a game were at best <50%, even on Bronze, even with an "I WIN" button the size of the sun. So while those characters were grossly overpowered, they didn't have a great impact in the end for more than 95% of the player base. What I've learned from this is that OP characters are not only OK but needed for the masses.
 

Those stats that the devs posted about win percentages on each level were screwed up and completely inaccurate.



#11
TheThirdRace

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Those stats that the devs posted about win percentages on each level were screwed up and completely inaccurate.


Source or it didn't happened.

As far as I can tell from speaking with a lot of PUGs, those numbers were incredibly accurate. People were complaining to me how often they'd wipe or how hard Gold was...

#12
Malanek

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Source or it didn't happened.

As far as I can tell from speaking with a lot of PUGs, those numbers were incredibly accurate. People were complaining to me how often they'd wipe or how hard Gold was...

I assure you it happened. You can believe what you want but the devs admitted they got the query wrong when it was pointed out that their numbers neatly added up to 100% for each enemy. They ended up telling us, for each enemy, the percentage of extractions by level for successful extractions rather than what percentage of games successfully extracted. I can't be bothered to look for the explanation but if you still have the most recent stats you will see the updated explanation. 
 
 
Edit here  http://forum.bioware...ats/?p=15008793



#13
TheThirdRace

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I assure you it happened. You can believe what you want but the devs admitted they got the query wrong when it was pointed out that their numbers neatly added up to 100% for each enemy. They ended up telling us, for each enemy, the percentage of extractions by level for successful extractions rather than what percentage of games successfully extracted. I can't be bothered to look for the explanation but if you still have the most recent stats you will see the updated explanation. 
 
 
Edit here  http://forum.bioware...ats/?p=15008793


Thanks, I'm baffled I missed it!

In any case, the point still stands. TGI and EDI were still dying and there were wipes at all levels too. I'm happy it wasn't at the scale the numbers showed, but there's still a need for easier characters for those that are less skilled at the game so they're not totally outclassed. Sure, it'll give great players amazing characters, but those players tend to play well no matter what and they rotate more between characters too. All in all, stronger characters aren't necessarily bad for the whole community.

#14
MadMaximoff

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Considering the Arcane Warrior is currently discouraging team play and most of them are running through threatening dungeons like Rambo, I really support shifting their power to team play orientation.

 

Some would argue it's a free win when an AW solos section 5, Personally I hate it because they let their team mates bleed out.

 

Get caught by a rubber-band and one shot by the Demon Commander? Tough luck, the AW isn't going to pick you up off the ground.



#15
Vishimtar

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AW needs nerfed simply because I grow weary of having 3 of them in every game I'm in, all running off doing their own thing and providing 0 teamwork.  I love when they run off and die.



#16
Eelectrica

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Give it the Krysae treatment.


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#17
absinthesize

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Considering the Arcane Warrior is currently discouraging team play and most of them are running through threatening dungeons like Rambo, I really support shifting their power to team play orientation.

 

Some would argue it's a free win when an AW solos section 5, Personally I hate it because they let their team mates bleed out.

 

Get caught by a rubber-band and one shot by the Demon Commander? Tough luck, the AW isn't going to pick you up off the ground.

 

see the one failing i see in a AW isnt his survival or damage.  its that to keep that survival/damage going you cant really stop.

 

if i stop for one second, even to revive, im dead.



#18
Broganisity

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He's gimped enough with that David Bowie suit of his. ;)


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#19
PurpGuy1

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AIU was not hard to play. Only the most incompetent players couldn't survive with the AIU.

 

how many AIUs have I seen that brought Grenade Capacity V and still went down 17 times on Wave 1

 

it gets worse on later waves btw

 

believe it or not people really are that dumb

 

Once when I was playing Robotech: Battlecry, I held off a group of pvpers for 2 hours.



#20
EnemySpinach

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I do just have one thing I really, REALLY need to address:

 

"Barrier is 1 time and can't be maintained constantly for the entire duration of the game."

While I've never played my keeper on Perilous, I actually CAN keep it up on a main tank -almost- 100% of the time (Their health never dropping a full bar until the boss wave) on Threatening, unless they're just trying to tank the entire boss room at once or something stupid. Once you get the decay reduction (35%) bonus barriers, and cooldown, it's pretty easy to constantly re-apply it just by staying relatively close to the tank so you don't waste too much time targeting the thing.

The Arcane Warrior, on the other hand, while it may be a walking barrier battery for itself, is dead if it stops attacking to revive an ally during battle. So while it can simply muscle through a lot of scenarios that would kill a lot of other characters, it's ultimately a selfish class that can't really offer much support, otherwise. It's intended use is clearly as a walking battering ram and not much else.

 

So honestly, I fail to see the issue. I do like the AW, but I also see it's weaknesses. It's exactly like the reaver and "omg Rampage + Dragon Rage so good" but suddenly rampage is on cooldown. It's powerful, but definitely has drawbacks.



#21
golyoscsapagy

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No, just no.

You need a buffer otherwise the passive barrier would be enough just to block a hit (hell, even not a full hit, as archers on perilous will easily shoot more than 500).

 

That's the whole point of the bonus 50% barrier as well - to have a larger buffer. When you PotA then blow up stuff with FC you will max out your barrier - no matter what. With the 50% bonus you will have a larger buffer for the remainder of the fight (which is just a few secs anyhow) - without that a stray arrow or two would just burn it down.



#22
TheThirdRace

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AW needs nerfed simply because I grow weary of having 3 of them in every game I'm in, all running off doing their own thing and providing 0 teamwork.  I love when they run off and die.

 

This is very bad logic. You can't nerf something because you're tired to see it badly played. Are you that shallow?



#23
Beerfish

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He's gimped enough with that David Bowie suit of his. ;)

He looks like that wrestler, 'Golddust'


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#24
TheThirdRace

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No, just no.

You need a buffer otherwise the passive barrier would be enough just to block a hit (hell, even not a full hit, as archers on perilous will easily shoot more than 500).

 

That's the whole point of the bonus 50% barrier as well - to have a larger buffer. When you PotA then blow up stuff with FC you will max out your barrier - no matter what. With the 50% bonus you will have a larger buffer for the remainder of the fight (which is just a few secs anyhow) - without that a stray arrow or two would just burn it down.

 

The numbers are not important, the buffer could be more than 500 points if it's required.

 

The 50% bonus on Barrier is bad currently, even with PotA and FC. With the bonus, you won't be able to keep that Barrier up for the entire fight, even with a 150 DPS staff. The Barrier will decay faster than you can regenerate it, which will leave you vulnerable longer.

 

Not using the 50% Bonus will offer you a buffer and will allow you to keep the buffer longer because you'll deal more damage than required to sustain it. That's what I'm talking about with the 500 points Barrier. It's a buffer for 1 or 2 hits that can be sustained longer or regenerated faster than the current option at the cost of maybe being hit once (which won't kill you). The full Barrier of 3500 points (with the 50% bonus) will protect you for sure, but as soon as it's gone your health will drop pretty fast and you'll die.

 

It's much better to be able to sustain damage longer and use "% heal on kill" items for the occasionnal hit than dying as soon as your Barrier goes down because you couldn't keep it up or regenerate it fast enough. At the very least, don't use the 50% bonus to Barrier because you're gimping yourself compared to the plain old Barrier. The non buffed Barrier is way too powerfull for Arcane Warrior right now because of it's effectiveness, if 500 points is too low for you, imagine it with 1000 points, as long as it's lower than 2000 I don't care. Remember that balance requires testing, I can post whatever number I want here, but the final result will be base on the results of testing. It's the principle that's important, not the actual number.



#25
Beerfish

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This is very bad logic. You can't nerf something because you're tired to see it badly played. Are you that shallow?

No actually that is very good logic.  When one class, weapon, map, opponent is shown to be the easiest or most powerful you end up with and endless supply of  those clogging up lobbies and the game becomes a boring grind very fast.  Make no mistake, if BioWare follows the ME3 model they will nerf the AW if their telemetry data shows it is being played by an overwhelming # of people.


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