Shock horror! Your choices never actually mattered as much as you thought they did anyway, they just did a better job at giving you that impression in previous games.
EDIT: Any game with choices will have to have moments like this in them, the only other option is not to give anyone a sequel at all.
It is...How did you waste time?
If you did it, your Warden can have a hand in the creation of a Dwarven master enchanter, that happened.
If you did not do it, Dagna simply at some, took a deep breath, gave herself a dose of encouragement and made it to the surface to bully herself entrace to a circle through sheer...well, something , cause she is kinda awesome.
Your choice is not invalidated, at all.
So you expect someone to give up their dream easily? Plus this is nothing new since bioware give's the illusion of choice.
It is
It doesn't matter whether one likes Dagna or not. I do. Heck, it is not about Dagna. The issue is Bioware forcing a single outcome for different choices. That for a RPG like DA and ME is not acceptable. Poor and lazy writing
...But it isn't.
Your entire premise is basically that unless your Warden mades decision, no NPC in the game can react independent of what you expect to happen, which is the weirdest thing I have ever heard.
Simply because my snooty noble female cousland had no time to deal with dwarves with a stupid dreams, does not mean Dagna suddenly gave up on her dreams because she was shot down.
At some time she simply decided to do it anyway.
The fact I still chose not to help still happened, thus not invalidated.
Its just one more example of it not mattering. I haven't seen any evidence that the choice of Dwarf King matters where it should be having quite a huge impact on the setting. We should be seeing evidence in the activities of surface dwarves. Then of course there's the famous example of Lelianna not dying. And I haven't gotten that far on my second playthrough yet but I assume I'll be seeing Morrigan even though I stabbed her in my second World State.
But hey, I get to see Loghain again. Maybe that will be fun. Last time it was Stroud.
Now THAT I agree with, in regards to Bhelen or Harrowmont. That choice is rendered completely pointless. Bhelen would've taken advantage of the surface war to capitalize on profit for Orzammar. Harrowmont might've denied Templars and Mages their lyrium and you'd have a quest where the Templars and/or Mages are trying to storm the city (and failing). I could go on and on about how the two respective choices would've interacted with the Mage-Templar war, at least up to the point of being given a revelation about the real threat.
As for Morrigan, well yeah. You stabbed her, but you were never able to be certain you killed her. And she is a mage. Mages heal wounds. So you're definitely going to see her again. I don't see that as Bioware ignoring our decisions, as it was clear from that ending that her story wasn't done yet. She'll probably mention it once or twice though. Be nice if they made her say she had a scar.
What matters in that scenario isn't the decision itself, but how your Warden reacted. You shaped your Warden through that choice.
Leliana is one they promised us an explanation for, yet I've seen nothing yet to indicate anything of the sort. But we were never able to confirm her death and the very nature of where she "died" is weird in nature. I've thought up a few explanations. I'm sure other fans have.
I doubt Bioware actually has.
I'm not saying don't call out decisions that are made pointless. What I am saying is that one must understand the difference between meaningful decisions that affect the world and decisions that don't.
Not every choice you make has an impact on the world in such a grand scale. Not every choice will change a person's dreams, desires, goals, and mentality.
It is, though...But it isn't.
Your entire premise is basically that unless your Warden mades decision, no NPC in the game can react independent of what you expect to happen, which is the weirdest thing I have ever heard.
Simply because my snooty noble female cousland had no time to deal with dwarves with a stupid dreams, does not mean Dagna suddenly gave up on her dreams because she was shot down.
At some time she simply decided to do it anyway.
The fact I still chose not to help still happened, thus not invalidated.
It is, though
It is not about Dagna, or Warden, or Inquisitor, or Hawke or anyone in particular. It is about a RPG game in which - as we are told many times by Bioware - our choices shape the world around us and its future. Choices should matter but often they do not. Different choices are forced into a single outcome with a little difference - at best a couple of lines. Even if does make sense it still weakens the story
That is a cheap trick, hardly acceptable for any professional writer. Sometimes it can't be avoided but even then it leaves a bitter aftertaste
And not every choice is gonna have a big or deep impact
It is not about the scale of impact. It is about its natureAnd not every choice is gonna have a big or deep impact
It is not about the scale of impact. It is about its nature
alright then, don't play Bioware games and don't come to the forums since it is all but an illusion. unless u yourself enjoy being lied to or be in this illusion, i don't see the validity of the complaint.
Dagna is a choice and she speaks different lines so yes, it is a choice.
Telltale games have excellent choice making decisions but it is only usually carried forward for 1-2 episodes and then that character u choose to save dies anyway. it is money-making because it would take so much effort to have all these combinations and especially if the percentage happens to be small anyway.
People should see and understand that BioWare is a company and they need profits because the devs need to eat. They are not a Charity Organization that can use all these resources free and easy (probably EA wouldn't even give them the budget for it but then again EA is a company).
so unless u can work for free, don't expect them to.
Bioware games are about choices and consequences, that is what makes them unique. I wish they remembered thatalright then, don't play Bioware games and don't come to the forums since it is all but an illusion.
Bioware games are about choices and consequences, that is what makes them unique. I wish they remembered that
And not every choice you make is going to be like that, it's been that way for a long time in Bioware games
Bioware games are about choices and consequences, that is what makes them unique. I wish they remembered that
coz in the past, there are only 2 games and the resources needed to make these choices stick are much lesser. time have move on and the marketing costs alone will be difficult to make money.
so they cannot create so many animations (imagining creating another Enchanter just for that 20% of people), it would 'waste' resources. So even Telltale games which are just animations, do not have your choices stick for too long.
Sadly, it hasAnd not every choice you make is going to be like that, it's been that way for a long time in Bioware games
Sadly, it has
Meaning there games has pretty much always been like that
Simply because my snooty noble female cousland had no time to deal with dwarves with a stupid dreams, does not mean Dagna suddenly gave up on her dreams because she was shot down.
But what I would have liked with Dagna that if you did not help her get to the mage circle then she might still research magic but is more specialised in armour from working with her father. Then if you did help her then she would specialise in magical items more.
There is only one version of Dagna however. It would have been nice if there was two options for her depending on how you left Origins.
Poor writing choices and lying in the faces of customers? Yeah, you are right, it's been like this for quite some timeMeaning there games has pretty much always been like that
I think Dagna wouldn't matter so much if the larger choices were recognized better. But I can understand Dagna following her dreams no matter what. She thought about doing it night and day, and was willing to leave everything behind for it. I'm sure she studied hard and knew her stuff and that's what opened doors for her even if the Warden didn't. I always help her out, even when my Warden is being a bastard.
Honestly, for a rather small choice, I understand why BW included Dagna anyways. She's a rather popular character for how small her part was in Origins, and only having one character be the Arcanist allows her to be in more content b/c they don't have to vary it as much.
And I haven't gotten that far on my second playthrough yet but I assume I'll be seeing Morrigan even though I stabbed her in my second World State.
The sorceress who fell through a magic mirror out of your sight after receiving a not immediately fatal wound? Don't be stupid, she's dead forever.
Poor writing choices and lying in the faces of customers? Yeah, you are right, it's been like this for quite some time
If you really consider that lying then that's on you
Look strictly speaking yes Bioware can asspull and justify anything. "Look it just happened. Deal with it" And strictly speaking Dagna would be one of the easier ones to justify.
I just don't like her. She doesn't fit. This is supposed to be a grey setting. People with ambition normally hit lots of obstacles and pay prices. But not Dagna, no. Even though her ambition is the height of irresponsibility. Give up everything and everyone you know and hope your longshot of a dream works out because there is no going back if you fail. Any other character in that position would run afoul of some tragedy or hardship, but the next time we hear from Dagna, everything worked out pretty much how she hoped whether she had any help or not. She's not even any less perky. It doesn't fit the setting at all.
Someone said earlier "Yes and the HoF started with nothing and put together an alliance." But first, the HoF didn't choose to be in such a situation and second, the HoF had an actual plan and the game did a good job of showing how HoF put everything together.
It didn't bother me that the choices were ignored because she is just so adorable I almost couldn't handle it.
It is
It doesn't matter whether one likes Dagna or not. I do. Heck, it is not about Dagna. The issue is Bioware forcing a single outcome for different choices. That for a RPG like DA and ME is not acceptable. Poor and lazy writing
Or extra work for the animators which costs time and money for a relatively small part of the game, which realistically shouldn't impact your enjoyment at all. It was made quite clear in Origins that she really wanted to pursue that path and she made it happen regardless of whether you helped her or not.
The decision to resurrect Leliana if she died is a choice I would have a problem with if you made that choice but I have no issue with this one.
You'll totally never regret not getting a proper education in a solid career field.
While I don't agree with your complaint about Dagna, this one sticks out the most for me. She is running off to follow her dreams, but her dreams include getting a proper education in an area that she, as a dwarf, can do, that mages who haven't been lobotomized can not and her degree of knowledge is high enough before she joins that I have a funny feeling that she would find a circle that would allow her to stay with them and study.
While I don't agree with your complaint about Dagna, this one sticks out the most for me. She is running off to follow her dreams, but her dreams include getting a proper education in an area that she, as a dwarf, can do, that mages who haven't been lobotomized can not and her degree of knowledge is high enough before she joins that I have a funny feeling that she would find a circle that would allow her to stay with them and study.
Yeah in my head I was comparing it to modern analogs. Smithing in my head was like staying in town and going to university or trade school. Running off in the hopes of getting into enchanting is like in real life turning down scholarships to university and running off to Hollywood because you read some books about acting and it sounds really neato.
In a world like this there's going to be a steady demand for smithing work. Everyone relies on tools and or weapons and those things break. Enchanting is going to be a luxury.
But its her talking about how she read these books that talk about magic that reminded me of me at that age. I wanted to be a scientist. I read books about science and thought science sounded really neat. Computers sounded boring. Well, I entered college, started doing the work and discovered that I liked reading about science a lot more than I actually liked doing science. Eventually years later I read some stuff about computers that changed how I thought about them and now thats my career field. This sort of thing happens to most people. You get to college, you change majors.
For every Dagna, there would be a hundred dwarves seemingly just like her that either lacked the aptitude or discovered that actual enchanting is not as exciting as they thought. Only, because of how their society works, they're up a creek without a paddle. Better hope you can hook up with the Merchants Guild because thats all you got now. Or maybe you can resume your smithing education with some surface smith. But the point is, you've lost all your family support. Its incredibly irresponsible. At least Dagna had a guaranteed in when the Warden helped her, so thats part of it taken care of. But they're still taking a chance on her having any talent.
In real life this would end badly, is my point and given the tone of the series, her success is really incongruous with everything else. Especially when DAI establishes that she's successful no matter what.
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