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[Patchwork]

The timeline doesn't work for Flemeth to be Andraste and Mythal is too wrapped up in being betrayed to care about the world's problems, Flemeth as Andraste's descendent works for me and I can imagine Morrigan choosing to have a son to spite her mother. 

[angelofsol]

I actually went looking for answers and couldn't find an ounce of information on when Flemeth was born.  If this is somewhere could someone point me in that direction?  I'd really appreciate it as without that specific information I came to the conclusion that Andraste was Flemeth... similarities in stories, only having daughters, etc.

I definately think that regardless of if Flemeth = Andraste that Andraste had Mythal's soul.  Many site that Andraste went up in flames.  She very well may have but to me that's meaningless, especially if she had Mythal.  Andraste may have pulled a Flemeth and had a piece of her stored elsewhere to ressurect later.

Also any info and stories about Flemeth really should be taken with a grain of salt... there are so many stories floating out there about Flemeth it's blatant obfuscation and misinformation, likely on Flemeth's part.

It strikes me with helms/diadems that Mythal, Andraste, and Flemeth all seem to like to wear or be depicted with something with a very pointy spike in the middle.  Also Mythal and Flemeth have a high connection to dragons and there's debate about if Andraste did.

Andraste's ashes were mystical.... why was that?  Is it simply a mater of great faith or is there more to it?  I'm going with the later... they're mystic because of Mythal's presence.

I'm interested to know where they go with this and what turns out to be right.

[Herbert]

With the problem being that Morrigan tells you before you do the ritual that she will have a son.

Could the reason for him being a boy simply be b/c Urthemiel is in fact a HE to begin with, and the old soul would determine the sex?

[Kantr]

Could the reason for him being a boy simply be b/c Urthemiel is in fact a HE to begin with, and the old soul would determine the sex?

no. He's a boy without the soul

[Reznore57]

I actually went looking for answers and couldn't find an ounce of information on when Flemeth was born.  If this is somewhere could someone point me in that direction?  I'd really appreciate it as without that specific information I came to the conclusion that Andraste was Flemeth... similarities in stories, only having daughters, etc.


 

 

http://dragonage.wik...entry:_Highever

 

You have that Codex entry , Flemeth was Flemeth of Highever .She killed the last of the line and the Cousland got the place.

Also page 82 of the World of Thedas book timeline : "3: 00 Towers : Flemeth is said to be born in the Fereldan village of Highever."

[angelofsol]

http://dragonage.wik...entry:_Highever

 

You have that Codex entry , Flemeth was Flemeth of Highever .She killed the last of the line and the Cousland got the place.

Also page 82 of the World of Thedas book timeline : "3: 00 Towers : Flemeth is said to be born in the Fereldan village of Highever."

 Thanks for that.  Also explains why I didn't find it... there's no cross reference under Flemeth's actual entry of any reference to Highever and I don't have the World of Thedas book so couldn't even guess where such info might be hidden away.

Though the book of Thedas entry "Flemeth is SAID to be born...." is a bit questionable, however, combined with the codex entry it makes it a bit more likely that Flemeth was not Andraste.  I really could have gone either way as I think it's likely then, with this knowledge, that Mythal entered Andraste and then Flemeth.  The parallels between the lives of the two would indicate, to my mind, that Mythal is drawn to women who are similar to herself... and could be argued wind up having similar fates involving betrayal.

[Heimdall]

Thanks for that.  Also explains why I didn't find it... there's no cross reference under Flemeth's actual entry of any reference to Highever and I don't have the World of Thedas book so couldn't even guess where such info might be hidden away.
Though the book of Thedas entry "Flemeth is SAID to be born...." is a bit questionable, however, combined with the codex entry it makes it a bit more likely that Flemeth was not Andraste.  I really could have gone either way as I think it's likely then, with this knowledge, that Mythal entered Andraste and then Flemeth.  The parallels between the lives of the two would indicate, to my mind, that Mythal is drawn to women who are similar to herself... and could be argued wind up having similar fates involving betrayal.

Well, Mythal only came to Flemeth after she was betrayed. Andraste was a slave, for awhile, but she wasn't actually betrayed until the very end.

[MACharlie1]

I just played the Temple of Mythal and did the ritual. It is said that Mythal was murdered "by those who destroyed this temple". He's speaking of the Venatori which is Tevinter. 

 

Who killed Andraste? Tevinter. 

 

The spirit that stops Corpheyus from pursuing the Inquisitor through the mirror is also a blonde human - much like Andraste. Though this is fuzzy evidence at best because of the whole glowly bit. 

 

There is definitely a connection between the Archdemons (the Old Gods), the Elven Gods and Mythal/Flemeth. And we know that Mythal had her dragon form during the years of her worship considering the statues that are in the temple - all depicting a faceless goddess (with the Andraste pointed crown) and dragon wings. 

 

And doesn't Andraste's pal Shartan look awfully familiar?

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I guess I don't put as much thought into it all. Solas is Dread wold, Flemeth is Mythal, Andraste WAS a human who tried to make the world better. None of the so called gods are omnipotent or perfect, miracle working beings, just souls that, like any spirit or demon can inhabit a mortal body. IMO, there are no real gods, just spirits that this or that group of people decided to worship as gods. Same goes for archdemons/ old gods just spirits same as any other spirit.

[electrifried]

I believe Flemeth was once mortal as the Andraste, and was betrayed by her husband. In DAI, Flemeth says she wants the same revenge for both her and Mythal. So Mythal must have been involved in some betrayal with the elves, before joining souls with Flemeth/Andraste. I think Mythal came to her before/after she was burned at the stake, explaining why some of Andraste's followers say Andraste was reborn as a high dragon. 

 

I also think Solas might even be the 'Maker' or something similar, due to his relationship with Flemythal and ability to talk through Cole..it just seems suss. The Maker doesn't necessarily have to have ultimate power over everything..there are so many points in the game that stress the gods in elvish and human religions are not necessarily higher beings. But he associates with the Fade a lot, and has a close relationship with spirits who the Maker apparently created first. Solas and Flemythal seemed pretty close at the end, and the Maker was apparently also closely associated with Andraste as her husband (although who really knows for sure). 

[Sully13]

Short answer No.

[themikefest]

no

[Siluan]

I'm not so well versed in DA lore, so I have no idea when Flemeth is born or how accurate is this information, but the idea about Flemeth being Andraste did occur to me too - simply based on her proclamation "She was betrayed as I was betrayed..." - and knowing basically the only important betrayed woman in history which was Andraste. I guess we'll see in the future... It's going to be a long wait for another game...

[Todrazok]

I prefer the idea that Andraste was Dumat's vessel rather than Mythal. The timing fits and puts a whole new meaning to the "Herald of Andraste" title. If only Corypheus would learn this, the irony would be delicious 

[Aquarius121]

I have a theory that the elven and Chantry religions (and possibly Tevinter?) are actually all the same, but have been twisted by culture and mythology...figures have been given different titles throughout time by different races, and they don't realize it, making it all the more tragic that wars have been fought in their name. Fen Harel is the Maker and Mythal is Andraste...it takes a lot of thinking to sort out how that could work but it's the fun sort, for me at least

 

Honestly I don't like to delve too far into the whos/whens/hows because that would probably derail my entire imaginary canon, and that's just cruel.

 

Imagining Solas as not only Fen Harel, but also the Maker, is very interesting to me. It makes his guilt over how the games' events turned out that much more believable and would also explain his soft spot for spirits (his first creation).

 

Flemeth as Andraste/Mythal...I just imagine that of course Mythal would choose to incarnate herself as someone with the means and connections to overturn the Tevinters and free elven slaves. Of course she would ally herself with the Maker/Fen Harel who by this time is possibly regretting his trick (is what Fen Harel did related to how the Maker cast down the Old Gods of Tevinter? Are the Old Gods of Tevinter also the same as the Elven Gods? Ok, I'll stop lol).

 

And then, of course she would have to go into hiding as a semi-mortal human being after being "killed" by the flame. I mean, Mythal can apparently make herself not look like an elf and transform into a dragon and whatnot. So is anything out of the realm of possibility for her? Resurrection seems pretty doable. 

 

Then there's that end scene where it looks as if the roles of Maker/Andraste in relation to each other is not as clear cut as assumed, if my theory is correct. Were Andraste and the Maker really holy or just opportunists who used each other? Is the Maker really all-powerful or just another person capable of mistakes and delusions? So yeah...

 

I didn't think I'd turn into such a crazy person but the lore in this game allows for so many possibilities...it's hard not to get caught up in them and go spiraling into crackpot territory xD

[Aquarius121]

I believe Flemeth was once mortal as the Andraste, and was betrayed by her husband. In DAI, Flemeth says she wants the same revenge for both her and Mythal. So Mythal must have been involved in some betrayal with the elves, before joining souls with Flemeth/Andraste. I think Mythal came to her before/after she was burned at the stake, explaining why some of Andraste's followers say Andraste was reborn as a high dragon. 

 

I also think Solas might even be the 'Maker' or something similar, due to his relationship with Flemythal and ability to talk through Cole..it just seems suss. The Maker doesn't necessarily have to have ultimate power over everything..there are so many points in the game that stress the gods in elvish and human religions are not necessarily higher beings. But he associates with the Fade a lot, and has a close relationship with spirits who the Maker apparently created first. Solas and Flemythal seemed pretty close at the end, and the Maker was apparently also closely associated with Andraste as her husband (although who really knows for sure). 

 

Well damn. You beat me to my own idea! I should have read the whole page before posting. Glad to know I'm not the only one wondering if this is true.

[Aquarius121]

I'd also like to add that in every codex entry about Andraste it is never revealed her true birth place or date. Everybody in Thedas disagrees about it. Seems pretty suspect to me that she'd just appear out of thin air with no concrete proof. Doesn't hurt the idea of her simply being Mythal incarnate.

 

Also, one codex in Val Royeaux (I think) mentions her only having one surviving daughter, who was a mage if I believe. The Maker may have turned his back on humanity and perhaps Mythal/Andraste, but that mage blood still could have been passed down through the ages to Flemeth. And who knows when the Maker/Fen Harel/Solas decided to appear, or if it was his influence that enabled Mythal to return to a corporeal form: Flemeth.

 

At the end of the day though, it all sounds so much more complicated than it should be if it were true. Still fun to think about when I'm traveling through endless expanses of sand to the next rift in the middle of nowhere.

[Aquarius121]

@Honourable Bigot

 

I think too many hours on these forums and in this game have finally broken me. But ya know...

 

[QueenCrow]

I'll bite.  Yes.  Here's the reason why:

 

I have always viewed the main characters in the Dragon Age games as Jungian archetypes of sorts and there are several archetype models that Flemeth, Mythal, and Andraste all fit.

 

Guardian.  Mother.  And as others have already mentioned, hell hath no fury like a woman betrayed.  In any case, they all seem to embody the same spirit.

[DanAxe]

It's all about the Mythal-Fen'harel connection in my opinion. We dont know their true story, but i think it all passes through there.

 

Mythal and Fen'harel are old friends.

Andraste and Shartan were very good friends too.

Flemeth and Solas are friends aswell.

 

Mythal's statues on her temple have the same headband that Andraste used, where have we seen the exact same headband in the Dragon Age? In Flemeth ofc, and it turns out she's Mythal.

Fen'harel statues are depicted as wolves, so we dont have a way to know his original form. BUT, we know Solas is Fen'harel, and we know that depictions of Shartan are very very similar to Solas card from the party selection screen. As in, too much similarities to be a coincidence. The writer's of Dragon Age have a track record of doing that, using depictions of people to give hints as to who they truly are, i have no doubt Shartan was Fen'harel, which gives me comfort in assuming Andraste was Mythal..

 

Whatever is going on, I think that both Flemeth and Andraste carried Mythal's soul, just as Shartan and Solas carried Fen'harel's soul.

 

And for some reason their story is being repeated through the ages. We just dont know the original story and who betrayed Mythal in the first place, or how.

 

When we do, things might become more clear as to what is going on with all these characters.

[QueenCrow]

It's all about the Mythal-Fen'harel connection in my opinion. We dont know their true story, but i think it all passes through there.

 

Mythal and Fen'harel are old friends.

Andraste and Shartan were very good friends too.

Flemeth and Solas are friends aswell.

 

Whatever is going on, I think that both Flemeth and Andraste carried Mythal's soul, just as Shartan and Solas carried Fen'harel's soul.

 

And for some reason their story is being repeated through the ages. We just dont know the original story and who betrayed Mythal in the first place, or how.

 

When we do, things might become more clear as to what is going on with all these characters.

 

Oh!  Good point!  I hope you don't mind me taking your ball and running with it.  

 

We know that Flemeth was done in by her husband for love of another.  We know that Andraste was done in by her husband, Maferath, because of envy over another.  Perhaps Mythal was done in by her husband/male counterpart, Elgar'nan - Vengeance.  And perhaps it has something to do with another?  Perhaps Fen'Harel?

[Get Magna Carter]

I still think Leiliana is the reincarnation of Andraste...(or something like that)

[MrMrPendragon]

Flemeth, in addition to having an elven god inside her, is now Andraste, who is btw also Dumat if the theories are to be believed.

 

 

She's now a supergod.

[Paxwell]

What seems the best fit to me, is that Mythal was trapped, sundered, and/or corrupted, that dragon form becoming Dumat of the Old Gods.  The First Blight was then ended with the use of the first Dark Ritual, and the Old God Baby that resulted was spirited away and grew into Andraste.

 

Andraste didn't receive Mythal because she was a woman betrayed, but because she was born with it, she was fated to it.

 

As is often the case, it seems like the truth between two opposite ideological factions is somewhere in the middle, so it's probable that both the southern and Tevinter Chantries are at least partially right.  Andraste probably was a mage, but one who, growing up in the shadow of Tevinter and the Blights, was of the opinion that mages maybe shouldn't be in charge, or at least shouldn't use their power to put themselves in charge.  The Orlesian Chantry has warped history to their own ends as much as any one else, so I'm not going to take anything they say as complete truth, even if there is a nugget.

 

It also seems possible that Mythal's god soul was passed down through Andraste's daughter's all-female bloodline, and that Flemeth was the eventual result of this, though it is also possible that Flemeth was not related, was simply in a position to attract the notice of Mythal, and was the start of a new chain of daughters.  It may be that Morrigan gave birth to a son because she had not yet taken on Mythal.  You can blame OGB Kieran's gender on the dragon soul, and if there's no soul, it may just be chance that he was also male.  He has the same genetics either way.