22 réponses à ce sujet

[Season]

Couldn't find a topic on this forum regarding Necromancers and how good/bad they currently are. At the moment, I'm rolling a Knight Enchanter, but found it to be a bit unexciting. Personally, I'd rather struggle with my party in a fight than treat dragons like armored nugs.

 

So, does anyone know how well the Necro mage performs? I've read a lot of good things about Rift mages and how applying weakness can turn a dire battle around (plus, acting a like a Dragon Age Jedi sounds cool too). But, which is more fun? What are the pros and cons of both specs?

 

Sorry, I've tried looking for more info on them on the wiki and elsewhere, but to no avail. Thanks in advance for your help and/or suggestions. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The thing is Necromancer in this game seems to be very support oriented, hence why you have not seen many who use it as a specialization or create builds for it.

 

This is one of the cons of creating a game centered around action play. The game then becomes all about killing the enemies as fast as possible. Damage over time does not help in killing enemies as fast as possible, burst damage does. 

 

Necromancy in this game is about damage over time, small crowd control, pets and time alteration. They can have impressive damage numbers, but only over time. They have zero and I repeat that, zero, burst damage capability.

 

As such, their damage will be very consistent and good but it will be a plateau as opposed to bursts of damage. 

 

Contrast this with Rift Mage which has crowd control and debuff in all its basic spells and their nuke, Stonefist, can be spammed. 

 

Necromancer is better than Rift Mage in a few aspects however.

 

One is that Spirit Mark and Walking Bomb work on pretty much anything. Even the Horror damage over time, which you get by upgrading it, works on anything, it is only the panic part that does not do so. Contrast this with Rift Mage where Veilstrike and Pull of the Abyss absolutely do not work on large enemies such as Giants or High Dragons.

 

The second is that the Necromancer's Focus ability is far more reliable and more useful than Rift Mage's Focus ability. Firestorm sounds good on paper but in practice, it procs in a very irregular fashion, it does not do jack on fire immune or fire resistant enemies, enemies can get out of its blast radius and it can result in a total party wipeout if you have friendly fire on. Haste on the other hand works on anything and everything, procs all the time, is not affected by immunities or resistances of any form, friendly fire is not a concern and it is a spell that benefits the whole party. 

 

The third thing is that Necromancers do not have to worry about dying. With Simulacrum, they laugh in the face of death whereas Knight Enchanters and Rift Mages cannot do such a thing. Simulacrum grants you lichdom which allows you to close Rifts, revive other party members and cast spells without using up any mana at all for 10 seconds. That basically amounts to 10 seconds of godhood. So if you are a Necromancer with Simulacrum passive and you are in a tough battle which results in a party wipeout, it will not be a problem for you because, well, you cannot die that easily. 

 

The fourth thing is that in my opinion, Necromancer has really good animation and sound effects for their spells. Horror, despite its not-so-outstanding nature, looks awesome and sounds awesome to cast. So is Spirit Mark, especially if you manage to get a giant or a large bear. 

 

The fifth and last thing is, well, nostalgia and sentiment. Only with the Necromancer specialization can you recreate some form of DA:O and DA2 mage in the game. What do I mean by this ?  Here is a skillset for a Necromancer

1. Horror
2. Spirit Mark
3. Walking Bomb
4. Immolate
5. Winter's Grasp
6. Chain Lightning
7. Barrier
8. Haste

In DAO or DA2, these skills would be

1. Entropy School Spell
2. Spirit School Spell 
3. Spirit School Spell
4. Primal / Elemental School Spell
5. Primal / Elemental School Spell
6. Primal / Elemental School Spell
7. Arcane School Spell
8. Creation School Spell

You cannot recreate a DAO or a DA2 mage using the Knight Enchanter or the Rift Mage. Neither of them have Entropy spells.

 

All in all, in order to play as a Necromancer effectively, one should be willing to 

• Play a semi-support role. With that skillset setup I had above, you can be the only mage in the party.
• Not be afraid of dying. 
• Not care about high burst damage. 
• Be content with the potential disapproval you will receive from followers and advisers.

That means it requires a completely different playstyle to Rift Mage and Knight Enchanter. This is something that the majority of the playerbase has not gotten used to yet. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

For Rift Mage, check this thread out :- http://forum.bioware...-rift-or-necro/

[themaxzero]

After playing Rift and Necro on Nightmare I prefer the Necro.

 

Rift has better utility, Necro has better damage.

 

Detonate a Walking Bomb immediately for 780% weapon damage large AoE nuke that puts a 260% weapon damage a second DoT (have a Walking Bomb Skill ring) which also detonate for 780% weapon damage if the target dies or lives for 10 seconds. Put a Fire Wall under them for another 200% weapon damage a second and to trigger panic (buffing both DoTs by 15%) if an enemy dies you get another 20% damage buff.

 

200+260 x 1.15 x 1.20 = ~630 weapon damage a second (after 1 death) not counting explosions.

 

For single targets you can stack Spirit Mark for another 150% weapon damage.

 

Burning + Spirit Mark + Walking Bomb (520% initial initial hit, 10x 260% ticks and 780% explosion then recast makes it a 390% DPS spell) + Auto attack.

 

200+150+390+100 = 840% weapon damage a second sustained. Be even better once Gathering Storm is fixed.

 

I loved my Rift Mage but the Necro does things that I can't believe. The most memorable was the keep capturing fight in Western Approach where I was fighting the head mage guy. I had a Flashpoint proc so I cast Walking Bomb, detonated then recast Walking Bomb. There was a lot of explosions, combos and then in was over. All in less then 10 seconds.

[Season]

Excellent write-up. You pretty much addressed any questions I had or would have had prior to your post.

 

I do have a few other lingering questions though, as a result. The one thing that surprised me most is when you mentioned that I could potentially receive disapproval from followers and advisors. Interesting. How so? Is it due to having the specialization itself or more dialogue related? Will friends react negatively just because of my specialization or does something else trigger it?

 

Lastly. If I were to go Necro, would the loss of Stonefist (for combo detonators) be too big of a loss? I ask because Stonefist looked good enough to go Rift already. Also, I read that it doubles as an Impact detonator (not just Eldritch) and I assume it could even proc Shatter, Rupture and Discharge (http://www.brightsid...ll-combo-guide/) effects as well.

[Season]

After playing Rift and Necro on Nightmare I prefer the Necro.

 

Rift has better utility, Necro has better damage.

 

Detonate a Walking Bomb immediately for 780% weapon damage large AoE nuke that puts a 260% weapon damage a second DoT (have a Walking Bomb Skill ring) which also detonate for 780% weapon damage if the target dies or lives for 10 seconds. Put a Fire Wall under them for another 200% weapon damage a second and to trigger panic (buffing both DoTs by 15%) if an enemy dies you get another 20% damage buff.

 

200+260 x 1.15 x 1.20 = ~630 weapon damage a second (after 1 death) not counting explosions.

 

For single targets you can stack Spirit Mark for another 150% weapon damage.

 

Burning + Spirit Mark + Walking Bomb (520% initial initial hit, 10x 260% ticks and 780% explosion then recast makes it a 390% DPS spell) + Auto attack.

 

200+150+390+100 = 840% weapon damage a second sustained. Be even better once Gathering Storm is fixed.

 

I loved my Rift Mage but the Necro does things that I can't believe. The most memorable was the keep capturing fight in Western Approach where I was fighting the head mage guy. I had a Flashpoint proc so I cast Walking Bomb, detonated then recast Walking Bomb. There was a lot of explosions, combos and then in was over. All in less then 10 seconds.

 

Dang it. A lot of math there, but I don't care because it sounds exciting. 

 

I do like explosions. And, like Ishten said...if it LOOKS and SOUNDS good, even better. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

After playing Rift and Necro on Nightmare I prefer the Necro.

 

Rift has better utility, Necro has better damage.

 

Detonate a Walking Bomb immediately for 780% weapon damage large AoE nuke that puts a 260% weapon damage a second DoT (have a Walking Bomb Skill ring) which also detonate for 780% weapon damage if the target dies or lives for 10 seconds. Put a Fire Wall under them for another 200% weapon damage a second and to trigger panic (buffing both DoTs by 15%) if an enemy dies you get another 20% damage buff.

 

200+260 x 1.15 x 1.20 = ~630 weapon damage a second (after 1 death) not counting explosions.

 

For single targets you can stack Spirit Mark for another 150% weapon damage.

 

Burning + Spirit Mark + Walking Bomb (520% initial initial hit, 10x 260% ticks and 780% explosion then recast makes it a 390% DPS spell) + Auto attack.

 

200+150+390+100 = 840% weapon damage a second sustained. Be even better once Gathering Storm is fixed.

 

I loved my Rift Mage but the Necro does things that I can't believe. The most memorable was the keep capturing fight in Western Approach where I was fighting the head mage guy. I had a Flashpoint proc so I cast Walking Bomb, detonated then recast Walking Bomb. There was a lot of explosions, combos and then in was over. All in less then 10 seconds.

 

Hence why I refer to Necromancer as a semi-support character.

 

Excellent write-up. You pretty much addressed any questions I had or would have had prior to your post.

 

I do have a few other lingering questions though, as a result. The one thing that surprised me most is when you mentioned that I could potentially receive disapproval from followers and advisors. Interesting. How so? Is it due to having the specialization itself or more dialogue related? Will friends react negatively just because of my specialization or does something else trigger it?

 

Lastly. If I were to go Necro, would the loss of Stonefist (for combo detonators) be too big of a loss? I ask because Stonefist looked good enough to go Rift already. Also, I read that it doubles as an Impact detonator (not just Eldritch) and I assume it could even proc Shatter, Rupture and Discharge (http://www.brightsid...ll-combo-guide/) effects as well.

 

Necromancy is looked upon with suspicion by almost every nation in Thedas except Nevarra and Tevinter. You have the potential to lose a lot of follower approval. Potential. For example, if you become a Necromancer, Cassandra might express concern that you are starting to remind her of her uncle to which you say choose to say whether you are like a Mortalitasi or you just use this as a weapon of war and nothing more. Cole on the other hand, really disapproves of Necromancy. 

 

Necromancy in this game is the manipulation of spirits attracted to death. You are, in a way, enslaving these spirits to use as you like. Cole, being a spirit himself, dislikes this. 

 

Rift Mage is a combo monster. Stonefist can proc multiple combo types. 

[themaxzero]

Dang it. A lot of math there, but I don't care because it sounds exciting. 

 

I do like explosions. And, like Ishten said...if it LOOKS and SOUNDS good, even better. 

 

My advice would get to Skyhold and your companions unlock their specializations. Play as Dorian and Solas and try out both specs for yourself. Get a feel for how they play and what you enjoy.

 

For me as powerful as KE are I just can't stand playing them.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

My advice would get to Skyhold and your companions unlock their specializations. Play as Dorian and Solas and try out both specs for yourself. Get a feel for how they play and what you enjoy.

 

For me as powerful as KE are I just can't stand playing them.

 

This. Also, consider the roleplaying aspect of it as well. Necromancer is something an Inquisitor who wants to create fear would specialize in. Rift Mage is something a scholarly Inquisitor would specialize in. 

 

If you are power gaming though, just pick Knight Enchanter. 

[Season]

Hence why I refer to Necromancer as a semi-support character.

 

 

Necromancy is looked upon with suspicion by almost every nation in Thedas except Nevarra and Tevinter. You have the potential to lose a lot of follower approval. Potential. For example, if you become a Necromancer, Cassandra might express concern that you are starting to remind her of her uncle to which you say choose to say whether you are like a Mortalitasi or you just use this as a weapon of war and nothing more. Cole on the other hand, really disapproves of Necromancy. 

 

Necromancy in this game is the manipulation of spirits attracted to death. You are, in a way, enslaving these spirits to use as you like. Cole, being a spirit himself, dislikes this. 

 

Rift Mage is a combo monster. Stonefist can proc multiple combo types. 

 

Darn you combo monster! See, that was pretty much all it took to turn my attention away from KE and consider Rift or Necro. Also, thanks for the tip on Necro and its effects on party members - I love it! That'll make my decision harder though, ha.

 

My advice would get to Skyhold and your companions unlock their specializations. Play as Dorian and Solas and try out both specs for yourself. Get a feel for how they play and what you enjoy.

 

For me as powerful as KE are I just can't stand playing them.

 

Right? I played it for no more than a few minutes and could see I wouldn't enjoy it at all. It's like...why bring a party in the first place? Why even bother going into any other tree? Lol. Lame.

[Season]

This. Also, consider the roleplaying aspect of it as well. Necromancer is something an Inquisitor who wants to create fear would specialize in. Rift Mage is something a scholarly Inquisitor would specialize in. 

 

If you are power gaming though, just pick Knight Enchanter. 

 

Definitely not power gaming.

 

I love the roleplaying aspect of the game too. Your post on the other similar topic about Rift Mages made it even more exciting. You've certainly done your research. 

 

Alright guys, I think I've pretty much settled on which spec to pursue. Thank you all for your comments. We can safely consider this topic solved.

[dimvision]

Pretty much all Ishten said, but if you like explosions op. Then fire mine and Immolate are all you need it pretty much works on all specializations would work best as a rift mage though cause of pull of the abyss. Just get a non fire staff and eldritch barrage for fire immune enemies.

[Season]

Pretty much all Ishten said, but if you like explosions op. Then fire mine and Immolate are all you need it pretty much works on all specializations would work best as a rift mage though cause of pull of the abyss. Just get a non fire staff and eldritch barrage for fire immune enemies.

 

Indeed. I've been using those two combinations before reaching Skyhold. I don't plan on stopping now. 

 

Also, had one more question that I forgot about: how does Stonefist put enemies to sleep? Nothing in the tooltip suggests otherwise.

[themaxzero]

Indeed. I've been using those two combinations before reaching Skyhold. I don't plan on stopping now. 

 

Also, had one more question that I forgot about: how does Stonefist put enemies to sleep? Nothing in the tooltip suggests otherwise.

 

A large enough Spirit damage hit can put enemies to sleep. Both Stone Fist and Walking Bomb explosions can do it.

[Oryctolagus]

Ishten, thanks for the info.  Good stuff.

[dimvision]

Well I'd say... a speeding large fist made of stone that hit your face will put you to sleep. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

By the way, I would advise you to not overlook the Knight Enchanter. 

 

Yes, people have been playing the Knight Enchanter and building them in an overpowered immortal way but that is not the only way you can play as the Knight Enchanter and there are other builds for the Knight Enchanter that make them effective without being immortal and overpowered. 

 

Take this build for example.

• Knight Enchanter - 11 (Invest in all)
• Inferno - 4 (Immolate upgraded, Flashpoint, Clean Burn)
• Winter - 4 (Winter's Grasp upgraded, Mana Surge, Winter Stillness)
• Storm - 4 (Chain Lightning upgraded, Energy Barrage, Conductive Current)
• Spirit - 4 (Barrier upgraded, Peaceful Aura, Guardian Spirit)

1. Spirit Blade
2. Fade Cloak
3. Disruption Field
4. Immolate
5. Winter's Grasp
6. Chain Lightning 
7. Barrier
8. Resurgence

This setup allows you to genuinely play as a hybrid mage without the worry of becoming overpowered.

 

Notice that you have area of effect elemental spells for all types of elements and you have a lockdown spell, Disruption Field, that works on everything. Yes, Disruption Field, works on Giants and High Dragons, although only if you trap their legs but that is far better than say, being pointless.

 

With this setup, you can stay back, lock enemies with Disruption Field and proceed to waste them with area of effect elemental attacks. 

 

If any enemy comes near you, whip out Spirit Blade and start hacking and slashing. If you see a big dragon breath projectile coming your way, use Spirit Blade to swat it off.

 

If you see an enemy with a lot of guard, use Fade Cloak, get close, use Spirit Blade on them and then retreat to a distance and start casting away. 

 

If shite is about to get real, use Fade Cloak to get away or use Resurgence to give the party a group heal.

 

With this build, you definitely will not be an immortal mage jedi since there is no Fade Step and it will be somewhat mana intensive since you will be primarily spellcasting as opposed to spirit blade casting, so mana regeneration gear will be helpful.

 

It also requires quite a lot of skill point investment as well, 27 in total. Of course you can get rid of the unnecessary ones like Fade Cloak's upgrade (not really useful for this build), Disruption Field's upgrade (not really useful for this build), Barrier's upgrade (not really useful since you will regenerate barriers)..Which leaves you with 24 skill point investment in total. 

 

Having said that, this Knight Enchanter build is, in my opinion, the most flexible mage build out there. Your Mage Inquisitor need to be the only mage in the party for this build since you can do everything here from area of effect spellcasting, enemy slowdown, damage negation, healing, and some melee combat. 

 

All in all, just because people have been powergaming with the Knight Enchanter and making immortal Inquisitor builds with it, does not mean we have to just discard it.

 

It is like Arcane Warrior in DAO all over again. You can obviously make an OP Arcane Warrior Blood Mage Warden or you can just make an Arcane Warrior who stays at range, primarily casts spells and only uses melee it is really necessary. 

 

Cheers. 

[Spirit Keeper]

I've tried 3 specialisations and they all have their pros and cons. Knight-Enchanter is extremely powerful, so powerful it's (and I hate this word)...overpowered (people too often say OP to describe something that is just 'good' and then cry to Bioware to nerf it >_>). Knight-Enchanter just can't die, it always has barriers and its Sprirt Blade does massive damage (even more against barriers and guard) which makes it really good for Pride Demons and Dragons. Problem is that it is so good that it makes the game dull for me, knowing I can never die means there is no risk and no reward. To each their own of course.

 

Rift Mage is fun, its spells look pretty and companions seem to approve (if you care about that sort of thing). It can almost keep casting spells indefinitely and it has a pretty good Focus spell. It allows for good control of the battlefield and can fit into many different builds.

 

Necromancer is okay, I do like it but you need a certain build to make it work. The spirit pet is really useless in its current state, it will not attack or do anything, it won't move etc etc. It's highly dependant on what enemy you use the spell on. Revenants, Despair and Sloth demons are okay Pride might be too but everything else just...eh. I find the best tactic with a Necromancer is to cast Lightning Cage + Despair + Virulent Walking Bomb (and Lingering Mark if you feel like it). Lightning Cage + Virulent walking bomb is very important, it's funny and almost crule. Cage allows you to trap all the enemies in a small area and Virulent bomb means everytime one explodes another will be infected. Really good damage.

[DrekorSilverfang]

 

All in all, in order to play as a Necromancer effectively, one should be willing to 

• Play a semi-support role. With that skillset setup I had above, you can be the only mage in the party.
• Not be afraid of dying. 
• Not care about high burst damage. 
• Be content with the potential disapproval you will receive from followers and advisers.

That means it requires a completely different playstyle to Rift Mage and Knight Enchanter. This is something that the majority of the playerbase has not gotten used to yet. 

I'm not sure if we are playing the same game.

 

Possibly because you are trying to be the only mage in the part but necros are all about damage they do ridiculous levels of sustained damage and once something dies... everything dies in a massive explosion of fire and gore. It's really not hard to get things rolling either a nice WB > Fire mine > Immoltate > Detonate WB will usually kill your primary target and spread your WB at that point you already doing over 600% weapon damage per second to everyone hit and they are flat on their ass from there it's a chain reaction of explosions with the mobs blowing each other up.

 

Necro is for damage

KE is for survivability

Rift is for support

 

They are very clearly defined, unless your view of support is blowing people up then having their corpse punch their buddies in the face...

[Selea]

The only real problem of a Necro spec is the mana regeneration. If the Necro had comparable mana regen of a Rift Mage then it would be the best nuke spec by far, given Walking Bomb.

The potential is indeed there but the Necro doesn't possess the mana regen capabilities of a Rift to use that potential in a reliable way. It's really sad because without this problem Necro would become surely the best mage spec at nuking, by far.

P.S: About burst damage skills as someone said above: the most powerful burst skills of a mage are not in the specs but in the elemental lines open to every spec. Moreover Walking Bomb IS a burst skill and actually the most powerful in the game. The DoT aspect is only in the beginning but then it becomes a burst damage skill on the explosion (and you can literally chain burst damage on an AOE with those explosions).

[Selea]

Necro is for damage

KE is for survivability

Rift is for support

 

Not at all.

Necro is for nuke or support (depending on the route you want to go; you have not enough skill points and/or skill slots to do both effectively)
Rift Mage is the best nuke spec (Necro would be better at it if it had the same mana regen capability, but sadly it is not so, so Rift is the best mage spec for nuke damage apart on bosses)

Building a Rift Mage for support is the best way to gimp the spec and not work out its potential; I suppose you can go the support route with it but doing so is sincerely a waste on the PC given the insane mana regen. Necro can be or a damage build or a support build depending on what you want to do.

[Zered]

Finished the game as a necromancer the other day. Had lots of fun wiping mobs with walking bomb.

[Capeo]

I'm having a ball playing a Rift Mage on NM. Just hit 20 last night. I run with Dorian fully specced Necro and I find they compliment each other well and cover each other's weakness. Particularly sleep plus horror and WB tossed into a maelstrom of Pulls and Static Cages followed by a stream of detonators. Good fun lol.