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[Dean_the_Young]

It was hardly explicit, but DAI gave what seems to be a little-noticed revelation that has some pretty hefty implications for our understanding of the deep lore and backstory:

 

The Blight in Thedas predates the Magister's entry into the Golden City.

 

Lore buffs have known for some time that Tevinter denies the Chantry's history on the origin of the Blight, cleaiming it came from deep underground on its own, but usually it's been dismissed as self-serving denials by those who wish to avoid any connection or seeming responsibility. For that, Corypheus seems to have been a giant dismissal and disproof. The First Blight does seem to have been a result of the Magister break in.

 

But Bianca's revelation that Red Lyrium is Blight-infected Lyrium was not only a revelation that lyrium is in some sense 'alive' and not just magic metal, but also a clue that the Blight is actually old. Really, really old.

 

How old? Primevial thaig red lyrium idol old.

 

While exact dating of the primevial thaig is impossible, it's existence almost certainly predates the First Blight. It's architecture, distinct from the normal Deep Roads and styles of the Dwarven Empire that fell to the Darkspawn, the implications of the Profane who lived there, the nature of the idol as a deliberate crafted item even though blight-infected Red Lyrium is completely unknown to the Dwarves despite multiple blights and some of the best-preserved histories in Thedas...

 

There are some other possible supporting pieces as well. The Blight-infected eluvian that Merrill works on. Aside from the implication that the Eluvians themselves are somehow alive in order to be infected, the dating of the Elven ruins is also an indicator. The Elven ruins pre-date the First Blight but hundreds, maybe thousands, of years. While the presence of the local Darkspawn does provide an immediate source for its infection, the time window is limited for a full infection. It could be possible that the Eluvian itself was infected before the Fifth Blight... and if that were true, it could suggest that the Blight was present in the period of ancient elven history.

 

This is all, of course, dancing around the point that if Corypheus's infection point was in the Golden City, but that the primevial red lyrium idol existed outside of the Golden City even before that, then it would be a reasonable conclusion that the Blight was deliberatly put into the Golden City at some long-forgotten point... possibly to keep it from harming Thedas, and possibly as far back as some of the insinuations that the Fade and Veil are artifical constructs themselves.

 

Possible implications?

 

In primevial ancient times, as far back as the elves but before the Veil was formed, the Blight existed, was known enough that idols were made of (and from) it, and existed in such a way that it was deliberately contained.

 

The subsequent questions of 'who would make an idol of blight,' 'who was blighted,' 'who opposed them,' 'why was the veil created,' 'how,' and 'could this be reversed' are all questions that might dig deep into the heart of the deep lore of Thedas's primevial past.

[Maconbar]

i am not certain that you can assume that the Primeval Thaig was abandoned prior to the First Blight. All we really know is that the bulk of the construction was old. The red lyrium idol could have been created any time prior to the Thaig being abandoned.

[Earende]

Dwarven lore in previous game - dwarves' have been fighting the darkspawn since before the first blight stated by the chantry. There ya go.

[Deanna]

That's clever of you to think back to the idol upon Bianca's discovery, but as you said its impossible to tell how old the thaig is. And there's no indication that the blight predates the first blight just because lyrium is alive and infected, we didn't start seeing the red lyrium until DA2 therefore the lyrium idol could've been infected during the fifth blight, like the eluvian. It would make sense the eluvian's corruption came from the immediate darkspawn, which would also mean the eluvians could be 'alive' but I don't see how it would suggest the blight corruption existed before the first blight.

The chantry says it was the tevinter magisters who brought the first blight by usurping heaven, and everyone believed the inquisitors mark came from Andraste when really it came from Cory, who used to be a magister. And Cory said he saw the seat of the Gods and it was empty, what if he's right, what if there is no Maker and in that case where did the blight come from? Was the Golden City already corrupt. I quote from Legacy "it was supposed to be golden, it was supposed to be ours but it was black, corrupt." Cory might be an evil son of gun but he may be onto something....

[WhatGoesHere]

i don't know if this related, but if you examine the andruil mosaic in the temple of mythal, you get a codex entry telling the story of how andruil was basically driven crazy visiting the abyss

 

 

One day Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts. She began stalking the forgotten ones, wicked things that thrive in the abyss. Yet even a god should not linger there, and each time she entered the void, Andruil suffered longer and longer periods of madness after returning.

 

Andruil put on armor made of the void, and all forgot her true face. She made weapons of darkness, and plague ate her lands. She howled things meant to be forgotten [...]

 

 

i wonder if this means she came into contact and made equipment from the red lyrium/whatever is infecting the red lyrium. if so, it definitely predates the first blight. pure speculation, of course, since this is a tale in codex form

 

i think there's also some relationship between the seekers having some resistance against the red lyrium and the fact that they go thru the rite of tranquility. along with the primeval thiag hinting that dwarves once used magic, and the dwarves' resistance to at least normal lyrium, it seems that the ancient dwarves might have given up magic for a reason

 

also, when solas banters with varric about the lyrium, he says lyrium is the source of magic alongside whatever mages can provide themselves. during the conversation solas is also curious about further research made dwarves into lyrium. along with andruil being driven mad by the abyss, i think solas' questioning makes it seem like the mysteries of dwarves and lyrium is even older then the elven gods and arlathan, with the latter not having a omniscient understanding of the former. maybe the time when magic could be used by all and there was no veil (as mentioned by sandal), was brought to an end when whatever was underground corrupted things/people that had an affinity for magic, which resulted in what you suggest

 

all pure speculation of course. i find the lore incredibly interesting myself, even though i can't make heads or tails of anything

[Former_Fiend]

Of course it does. I suppose, ok, it's possible that the Magisters were dropped right on Dumat's prison but even if they were, they'd still need to spend a few years capturing and ghoulifying people to turn into broodmothers to build an army and supply that army before what you could really call a "blight" began.

[Br3admax]

Interesting, but the Eluvian seemed to have been Tainted by the darkspawn on the other side., said mirror definitely linked to Arlathan from all hints, however. Of course if you consider that, you also have to take into account that genlocks are on the otherside. Given how long the darkspawn have had to Taint just about anything, there's too much room for any possibility, for my tastes. 

[gothicshark]

I noticed as well.

add food for thought

Spoiler

Solas talks about a world where the veil never existed.
We also find out that the Dread Wolf tricked and imprisoned a portion of the Gods during a time of Civil War with the elves, a war that threatened the World, it is also the war that ended the power of the Elven Empire which allowed for the Humans to become important. This would all be "Primevial" time since all that survives from that time is the Lore that the eventual Ancient Tevinter recorded. Also it is heavily implied the only surviving elves are the descendants of Slaves. The important Elves are no more.

[Dean_the_Young]

i am not certain that you can assume that the Primeval Thaig was abandoned prior to the First Blight. All we really know is that the bulk of the construction was old. The red lyrium idol could have been created any time prior to the Thaig being abandoned.

 

The primeval thaig is, well, primeval is the strongest indicator that it pre-dates the Blight. Primeval itself means 'of or relating to the earliest ages,' and the reactions we get during our visit in DA2 more or less indicated that the primeval thaig was so old that it pre-dated the 'modern' dwarven shaping that existed around the First Blight.

 

We also get an indicator that the thaig was abandoned pre-Blight by the fact that the Darkspawn didn't break into it- none of their usual desecration or corruption or war camps abound. Considering how they occupy and infest just about every part of the Deep Roads they can occupy, and that the Primeval Thaig and its profane are absent of that, this is more circumstantial support that the Thaig wasn't abandoned as a result of the Blight (and thus argues against the Blight being the cause of corrupting the Idol).

[Dean_the_Young]

Of course it does. I suppose, ok, it's possible that the Magisters were dropped right on Dumat's prison but even if they were, they'd still need to spend a few years capturing and ghoulifying people to turn into broodmothers to build an army and supply that army before what you could really call a "blight" began.

 

Huh?

 

The implications of the Red Lyrium idol isn't that the Blight existed a few years before the First Blight as the dark spawn grew in number. The implication of the lyrium idol in a primeval thaig is that the Blight existed in the primeval era of Thedas- a period potentially thousands of years prior to the breach of the Black City by the magisters. Comparing that to the space between the Magisteres and the surface invasion would be like comparing inches to miles.

 

We're talking about a potential player or factor in the demise of the ancient elven civilization, or even their gods.

[Xilizhra]

One of the codex entries gives a strong implication that the primeval thaig predates the Memories... and yes, I noticed this too. But what interests me more is that, given all the singing that darkspawn respond to and which red lyrium performs, the darkspawn don't seem attracted to red lyrium at all. Which makes me wonder about the origins of darkspawn music; is it solely the music of the Old Gods that they respond to?

[Hellion Rex]

One of the codex entries gives a strong implication that the primeval thaig predates the Memories... and yes, I noticed this too. But what interests me more is that, given all the singing that darkspawn respond to and which red lyrium performs, the darkspawn don't seem attracted to red lyrium at all. Which makes me wonder about the origins of darkspawn music; is it solely the music of the Old Gods that they respond to?

Fair point about the darkspawn, though I don't think we really saw them enough to know for sure.

[Hellion Rex]

Huh?

 

The implications of the Red Lyrium idol isn't that the Blight existed a few years before the First Blight as the dark spawn grew in number. The implication of the lyrium idol in a primeval thaig is that the Blight existed in the primeval era of Thedas- a period potentially thousands of years prior to the breach of the Black City by the magisters. Comparing that to the space between the Magisteres and the surface invasion would be like comparing inches to miles.

 

We're talking about a potential player or factor in the demise of the ancient elven civilization, or even their gods.

Hmmm, Abelas mentions the in-fighting...perhaps red lyrium or the Taint itself played a factor in the civil war?

[TheJediSaint]

It could be that the corruption associated with the Blight is not limited to just Darkspawn.

[Hellion Rex]

It could be that the corruption associated with the Blight is not limited to just Darkspawn.

Well, we do now know that red lyrium also can transmit the Blight as well. Though it still appears that the original source of the Blight is something...Fade-related. Normally I'd say that the Black City is the source, but with the recent revelations about red lyrium, it makes me wonder if the Blight indeed came from somewhere else and later tainted the City, or someone else has been to the City before.

[Tookah45]

It could be that the corruption associated with the Blight is not limited to just Darkspawn.

 

This. A thousand times this. The blight has nothing to do with darkspawn, or an archdemon, or magisters. It's about corruption and decay.

 

The Primeval Thaig almost certainly existed before the blights. It's pretty hard to argue against that point.

 

The blight is believed to have come from the breaching of the Black City, which is in the Fade. The Profane in the Thaig are demons, from the Fade. It stands to reason that red lyrium is nothing more than corrupted lyrium, from the Fade. The entirety of the Fade is supposed to be a reflection/interpretation/corruption of the "real" world. Spirits mimic human qualities. Thoughts and feelings shape the world of the Fade, not actions. Every time you see or enter the Fade, it's all corrupted. My money is on everyone is vastly overthinking this and the Fade, red lyrium, demons, the Black City, and whatever else have been in existance for as long as mankind has possessed sentience. It's a reflection of human nature, corruption included.

[Hellion Rex]

This. A thousand times this. The blight has nothing to do with darkspawn, or an archdemon, or magisters. It's about corruption and decay.

 

The Primeval Thaig almost certainly existed before the blights. It's pretty hard to argue against that point.

 

The blight is believed to have come from the breaching of the Black City, which is in the Fade. The Profane in the Thaig are demons, from the Fade. It stands to reason that red lyrium is nothing more than corrupted lyrium, from the Fade. The entirety of the Fade is supposed to be a reflection/interpretation/corruption of the "real" world. Spirits mimic human qualities. Thoughts and feelings shape the world of the Fade, not actions. Every time you see or enter the Fade, it's all corrupted. My money is on everyone is vastly overthinking this and the Fade, red lyrium, demons, the Black City, and whatever else have been in existance for as long as mankind has possessed sentience. It's a reflection of human nature, corruption included.

I'd disagree on it always being corrupted every time we see or enter it cause prior to DAI we only see it in dreams or through entering with our minds.

 

That said, I remember seeing red lyrium everywhere in the Fade this time and wondering, maybe this (red lyrium everywhere) is the natural state of the Fade when not seen through dreams. Because how would anyone know differently? No one has entered the Fade physically since Corypheus, and we all know how that turned out.

[Tookah45]

That said, I remember seeing red lyrium everywhere in the Fade this time and wondering, maybe this (red lyrium everywhere) is the natural state of the Fade when not seen through dreams. Because how would anyone know differently? No one has entered the Fade physically since Corypheus, and we all know how that turned out.

 

That's what I'm thinking as well. Red lyrium is, I think, "Fade lyrium" just like spirits/demons are simply "Fade people." It isn't lyrium that's been "infected," It just is. 

[myahele]

When looking at the paintings in Mythals temple and another ruin in the Emerald Graves you can see depictions of elves riding their halla clearly going into battle.

And on the other side you can what appears to be these darkspawn ghoul-like people emerging from a black hole (cave? Abyss?)

I wonder if Ancient Elves suffered a blight-like incident and the black city was a way to contain these proto darkspawn?

[Hellion Rex]

When looking at the paintings in Mythals temple and another ruin in the Emerald Graves you can see depictions of elves riding their halla clearly going into battle.

And on the other side you can what appears to be these darkspawn ghoul-like people emerging from a black hole (cave? Abyss?)

I wonder if Ancient Elves suffered a blight-like incident and the black city was a way to contain these proto darkspawn?

Huh. I haven't been to Mythal's Temple personally yet, but that is very interesting....considering how strong the ancient elves were (they technically created their own dimension), maybe it isn't so much of a stretch that they could create a permanent construct within the Fade to contain the Blight. And perhaps, short of red lyrium, this was the last of the actual taint within Thedas until Corypheus let it back out.

[Br3admax]

That's what I'm thinking as well. Red lyrium is, I think, "Fade lyrium" just like spirits/demons are simply "Fade people." It isn't lyrium that's been "infected," It just is. 

Lyrium is a mineral. How do you even know it actually exists in the Fade naturally? Where as clearly there are non-Fade related bodies there to transmit it. 

[Hellion Rex]

Lyrium is a mineral. How do you even know it actually exists in the Fade naturally?

Touche. Another fair point. We don't know for a fact that lyrium exists naturally within the Fade. But, clarification, Bread. It's a lot more than a simple mineral. It's alive.

[Br3admax]

Touche. Another fair point. We don't know for a fact that lyrium exists naturally within the Fade. But, clarification, Bread. It's a lot more than a simple mineral. It's alive.

Living rocks are still rocks, 

[Carmen_Willow]

Touche. Another fair point. We don't know for a fact that lyrium exists naturally within the Fade. But, clarification, Bread. It's a lot more than a simple mineral. It's alive.

Spoiler

Yes, it is specifically stated in the game at one point that it is NOT a mineral, that lyrium is ALIVE.