64 réponses à ce sujet

[myahele]

Lyrium and the fade kinda reminds of FF7 Mako and life stream.

If a blight like incident occurred while elves were at war with each other then perhaps the Dalish folklore of how elves began to die and secluded themselves might have some truth. Just replace humans with blighted people and then it kinda makes sense.

[LadyLaLa]

Hmm, with Lyrium being alive, has anyone considered that it may be a coral-like organism? I mean, it's been said it can grow, rapidly at that, and most minerals take AGES to grow even a small amount. Not coral, coral can spread within the span of a few years

[Br3admax]

Spoiler

Yes, it is specifically stated in the game at one point that it is NOT a mineral, that lyrium is ALIVE.

That's not a spoiler. Lyrium was said to be alive by the Shaperates since DA:O. It's not really that surprising. 

[Hellion Rex]

That's not a spoiler. Lyrium was said to be alive by the Shaperates since DA:O. It's not really that surprising. 

Uh, I kinda doubt it, otherwise why would Bianca literally put so much emphasis and surprise on the whole "The Blight can only affect living things, ergo lyrium is alive" bit?

[Br3admax]

Uh, I kinda doubt it, otherwise why would Bianca literally put so much emphasis and surprise on the whole "The Blight can only affect living things, ergo lyrium is alive" bit?

You're right. Lyrium codex from DA2, tbh: 

"In the hands of the Shaperate, it becomes a repository for living memories. And some scholars maintain this as evidence that lyrium is, itself, alive."

 

This is also in the codex entry for lyrium before we even know Bianca exists. I'm not sure why it was so big a deal, but it's been there for 3 years now. More like the Blight is proof of this. Although lands have become Tainted before, so even this sounds kind of iffy. 

[Former_Fiend]

Huh?

 

The implications of the Red Lyrium idol isn't that the Blight existed a few years before the First Blight as the dark spawn grew in number. The implication of the lyrium idol in a primeval thaig is that the Blight existed in the primeval era of Thedas- a period potentially thousands of years prior to the breach of the Black City by the magisters. Comparing that to the space between the Magisteres and the surface invasion would be like comparing inches to miles.

 

We're talking about a potential player or factor in the demise of the ancient elven civilization, or even their gods.

 

I said that if the magisters were dropped on Dumat's doorstep it would take a few years. 

 

If they weren't, which I assume to be the case, it could well have taken centuries.

[TEWR]

I've known this since well before DAI gave us even more explicit revelations. Crafted some theories in BSN threads ages ago (before the shift to the new forum that is). Ah memories...

However, Tevinter has never said, to my knowledge, anything about the Darkspawn coming up from beneath the ground. That was entirely the viewpoint of the Dwarves, one that I'm willing to take at face value because they say they looked like them (meaning Genlocks). Further, the nature of the Primeval Thaig highly suggests they came before the First Blight and in fact are connected to it. Also, look at when the group of Qunari settlers disappeared. Then look at when the Magisters attempted to take over the Golden City.

 

The dates are different by a margin of about... oh... 30-40 years? I dunno. Don't have it on hand. Point is the Qunari vanished before the Magisters decided "I'm going to be a GOD!!!"

As for Bianca's revelation, that too was suggested ages ago. Rifneno pointed it out a long time ago, noticing that the way the red lyrium was growing within the thaig suggested it to be... well... growing. And alive. As I recall, the thread garnered the attention of David Gaider.

None of this is meant to say in such a way you should feel bad for thinking these things because other people thought of them. Just that you're certainly not alone in thinking them

[AtreiyaN7]

I'm terrible at keeping track of dates in DA, but if true, this is certainly interesting.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Dwarves have no historical records of fighting Darkspawn before Corypheus and gang entered the Golden City, so Darkspawn are most definitely a result of Corypheus. That does not mean that the Blight originated with them though. After all, the city was already black according to Corypheus, so something has to have "put" the Blight there.

[EmperorSahlertz]

However, Tevinter has never said, to my knowledge, anything about the Darkspawn coming up from beneath the ground. That was entirely the viewpoint of the Dwarves, one that I'm willing to take at face value because they say they looked like them (meaning Genlocks). Further, the nature of the Primeval Thaig highly suggests they came before the First Blight and in fact are connected to it. Also, look at when the group of Qunari settlers disappeared. Then look at when the Magisters attempted to take over the Golden City.

 

The dates are different by a margin of about... oh... 30-40 years? I dunno. Don't have it on hand. Point is the Qunari vanished before the Magisters decided "I'm going to be a GOD!!!"

It is beyond easy to poke so many holes in Shaper Czibor's statement. He doesn't know what he is talking about. He is a dwarf from "modern" Orzammar, a culture which is dwarven centric, with a hint (okay a truckload) of a superiority complex. He claims that the Darkspawn originated from underground, because that makes the Darkspawn even more of a Dwarven problem, that the surface refuses to help with.

 

However, if you look at actually contemporary sources, from the time the Darkspawn appears, you will notice that even the Dwarves say that the humans were the ones to unleash the Darkpawn upon the world. This also supports the story that the Magisters, after having been thrown out of heaven, fled deep underground to hide. Obviously then, the first to be corrupted by them would be the Dwarves.

 

Oh, and the Qunari didn't vanish before the Magister's entered the Golden City. It is specifically stated that the colony they established was lost during the First Blight.

[Storvacker]

Isn't it possible the idol was made with normal lyrium and then blight-infected? We don't know how it gets infected. Nothing indicates there needed to be people for that to happen here.

[TEWR]

It is beyond easy to poke so many holes in Shaper Czibor's statement. He doesn't know what he is talking about. He is a dwarf from "modern" Orzammar, a culture which is dwarven centric, with a hint (okay a truckload) of a superiority complex. He claims that the Darkspawn originated from underground, because that makes the Darkspawn even more of a Dwarven problem, that the surface refuses to help with.

 

However, if you look at actually contemporary sources, from the time the Darkspawn appears, you will notice that even the Dwarves say that the humans were the ones to unleash the Darkpawn upon the world. This also supports the story that the Magisters, after having been thrown out of heaven, fled deep underground to hide. Obviously then, the first to be corrupted by them would be the Dwarves.

 

Oh, and the Qunari didn't vanish before the Magister's entered the Golden City. It is specifically stated that the colony they established was lost during the First Blight.

 

According to the wiki (whose very nature is suspect as people have a tendency to write what they believe on there, even with sources) it says it was "likely" lost during the First Blight. So while I was mistaken, so too are you in that regard. We have nothing to say either way, though I recall a source saying it vanished before then. But perhaps that's a poor memory, or the place I saw it changed it for its own intentions.

 

As for "contemporary sources", even Caridin isn't contemporary. If we're to eliminate Czibor as a candidate (which granted, the way the Shaperate operates does make their records suspect) we can't take Caridin completely either. A true contemporary source would be Paragon Aeducan, but his letter to Anika says nothing of what he believes on the matter. Simply his observations of them from a military standpoint.

 

But I figure if Czibor was going to make it a more Dwarven problem the surface should take note of, he'd probably keep to the "they came from the humans' folly" story.

 

Because then it wouldn't be the Dwarves' fault and more likely to engender support. If people felt the Dwarves were responsible, their selfishness would only increase (which isn't to say with the human story Dwarves wouldn't still be ignored, as is evident).

 

Regardless, this changes nothing in the idea that the Red Lyrium and the Primeval Thaig or linked to the emergence of the Darkspawn. Red Lyrium has the Blight, per Bianca, and the Darkspawn wouldn't even go into the Primeval Thaig (per DAII, though they defended that area to the death as Nathaniel learned).

[EmperorSahlertz]

According to the wiki (whose very nature is suspect as people have a tendency to write what they believe on there, even with sources) it says it was "likely" lost during the First Blight. So while I was mistaken, so too are you in that regard. We have nothing to say either way, though I recall a source saying it vanished before then. But perhaps that's a poor memory, or the place I saw it changed it for its own intentions.

 

As for "contemporary sources", even Caridin isn't contemporary. If we're to eliminate Czibor as a candidate (which granted, the way the Shaperate operates does make their records suspect) we can't take Caridin completely either. A true contemporary source would be Paragon Aeducan, but his letter to Anika says nothing of what he believes on the matter. Simply his observations of them from a military standpoint.

 

But I figure if Czibor was going to make it a more Dwarven problem the surface should take note of, he'd probably keep to the "they came from the humans' folly" story.

 

Because then it wouldn't be the Dwarves' fault and more likely to engender support. If people felt the Dwarves were responsible, their selfishness would only increase (which isn't to say with the human story Dwarves wouldn't still be ignored, as is evident).

 

Regardless, this changes nothing in the idea that the Red Lyrium and the Primeval Thaig or linked to the emergence of the Darkspawn. Red Lyrium has the Blight, per Bianca, and the Darkspawn wouldn't even go into the Primeval Thaig (per DAII, though they defended that area to the death as Nathaniel learned).

WoT says that the Kossith (so not Qunari technically) likely all died during the First Blight, which is obviously just an explanation of why Ogres were present during the First Blight, and why Qunari were a "new" race to encounter for humans in the Steel Age. There is nothing to indicate that any of them were taken by Darkspawn prior to the First Blight (although technically there were a few years inbetween Corypheus' corruption and the Darkspawn discovery of Dumat, during which it could've happened).

 

Caridin lived DURING the First Blight. It doesn't get any more contemporary than that amongst the sources we got. Clearly even the Dwarves of that time believed the humans were responsible for the Darkspawn.

 

The Dwarves of Orzammar may talk a lot about being forsaken by the surface, but in all honesty, the Dwarves have no interest in aid from the surface. It goes against tradition. So by making it a Dwarven problem, Czibor, and modern Dwarves in general, make it more personal, thus making the aspect of surface aid less enticing. It is a Dwarven problem, so it is up to the Dwarves to fix it.

[Kieran G.]

It is never said that the blights predate the first blight, but the Taint might have shown up in Thedas before Tevinter Imperium was ever established, and was some how locked away. maybe in a city which happened to already be black when certain magisters came and contracted the blight.

[Dean_the_Young]

You're right. Lyrium codex from DA2, tbh: 

"In the hands of the Shaperate, it becomes a repository for living memories. And some scholars maintain this as evidence that lyrium is, itself, alive."

 

This is also in the codex entry for lyrium before we even know Bianca exists. I'm not sure why it was so big a deal, but it's been there for 3 years now. More like the Blight is proof of this. Although lands have become Tainted before, so even this sounds kind of iffy. 

 

The big relevation from Biana is that lyrium is infectable. Up until then, there was no real proof that lyrium was 'alive' in a meaningful sense. Lyrium 'sang', but that could have been a metaphor for other mind-altering properties- LCD might 'take you places,' but that doesn't mean there's some guiding power or organism driving trip outs. There was also a lack of infected lyrium to our knowledge... which, if it were just general corruption, we'd expect the self-spreading lyrium to already be a well documented fact.

 

Bianca moved 'lyrium is alive' from a possibly religious metaphor to a categorical fact.
 

[myahele]

Maybe "singing" is just a form of collective thought/hive mind control? Lyrium, archdemon, well of sorrows all sing.

To take it a but further we can look at BioWare other franchise: Mass Effect. Its a bit hazy but the Rachni conmmunicate via singing. Same with thorian and Reaper Indoctrination symptoms.

[Silcron]

And thus we learn that Bioware uses all those songs to indoctrinate us into buying their games.

But being serious. While playing a qunari inquisitor and talking to bull he talks about how they look like dragons, and jokes around them being related. The curious thing was that in the last fight Corypheus taunts you saying something like: "What do they call your race? Qunari? You're just a failure, a product of an experiment" (not quoting exactly, but it was something like that.) which begs the question, are the qunari really related to dragons? And if corypheus knows, by the way he says it he seems to be trying to remember something to taunt you with, not actually making it up, it would mean it was a experiment of maybe creating dragon people, by people whose gods took the form of dragons, or maybe even something the old gods instructed to do themselves.

If the old gods can create something like the qunari, why couldn't they have created the blight long ago, maybe the qunari were the second attempt.

Plus as far as gods go we have onlny three sets, the Maker, who may or may not be real, we will never know as stated by the writers; the old gods and the elven. The last two seem to be at war with each other. And if that tale about the elven god mentioned before is about the taint it could be that the taint is a weapon of the old gods, after all not only gives them advantages (respawning if killed, not needing to eat, mind control over every infected...) it could be a weapon to infect and control their enemy gods with.

Which also explains the elven civil war we now know about. Some gods, and likely their followers were infected and to defeat them Fen'Harel was forced to lock the infected gods away. Hell you can say that Mythal herself or her lover were infected, thus the betrayal (if she was infected it could be that the lover was Fen'Harel and he was forced to kill her but he managed to save the spirit, which later found its way to Flemeth. And in the last scene she gives herself and possibly the OG soul to him as a way to carry out her vengeance bot against the one who betrayed her by killing her, but against the old gods that infected her. Flemeth's relationship to dragons not being out of love but as a way that tranform the animal, the species of the old gods into her servants.)

Sorry if i went a bit off topic, but things in this game have just started to click with me, it's as if i had just realized i have the pieces of a puzzle and i'm starting to see how they fit together, so i can't help of think and write about how htey might fit (the whole mythal fen'harel thing just ocurred to me)

[Baronesa]

Seems the source of red lyrium was the Primeval Thaig, so what if the Magisters were transported there prior to the first blight? It is another of many possibilities. Of course the taint may have existed since forever, but prior to that event, the infections may have been so limited that they didn't mattered much.

 

Then again, we are talking about really ancient times and precisely because of that, information in normal circumstances is lost as time pass. Add to that the wars and the prior 4 blights and the amount of information lost is staggering.

 

If we add to this what was said by Flemeth on the Fade, that she is trying to correct something that should have never happened, which I took as referring to the blights...

[Monochrome Wench]

I have no idea what the truth about this all is, but there is a lot going on. My feelings are something like this is going on.

There is a connection between the bight and the old gods. Why else would blighted creatures hear the old gods. Perhaps the old gods created the blight to create minions. Corruption of the old gods by the blight itself may have been unintended. Normally they wouldn't have any actual contact with blighted creatures, until someone (Fen'Harel) locked them away under the ground. I think that the blight originated on Thedas and someone (elves?) managed to contain it in one city and then shifted that city into the fade making the black city. Dumat tricked Cory and the magisters into entering the fade to bring back the blight back to Thedas. Blights start and the old gods get revenge on the mortals.

As for lyrium... no real clue... could see an inversion like this being true. Red lyrium is how the blight was first made and blue is red that was been cleansed of the blight making it 'safe'. The red stuff seems to growing everywhere by itself after only a very short amount of time. Can see us having to attempt to stop the threat in a dlc or future game.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Isn't it possible the idol was made with normal lyrium and then blight-infected? We don't know how it gets infected. Nothing indicates there needed to be people for that to happen here.

Indeed it is, but that throws a wench in the entire theory.

[Dean_the_Young]

Indeed it is, but that throws a wench in the entire theory.

 

More to the point, though, there's no indication that the Darkspawn ever broke in to allow the Blight to contaminate it. The Blight needs proximity and contact to infect people and things, but the Primevial Thaig lacks the indicators or evidene of Darkspawn infestation that we see almost everywhere else in the Deep Roads.

[Br3admax]

The big relevation from Biana is that lyrium is infectable. Up until then, there was no real proof that lyrium was 'alive' in a meaningful sense. Lyrium 'sang', but that could have been a metaphor for other mind-altering properties- LCD might 'take you places,' but that doesn't mean there's some guiding power or organism driving trip outs. There was also a lack of infected lyrium to our knowledge... which, if it were just general corruption, we'd expect the self-spreading lyrium to already be a well documented fact.

 

Bianca moved 'lyrium is alive' from a possibly religious metaphor to a categorical fact.
 

Bianca did that for you. However, again, even in Therinfal, the Inquisitor calls the normal lyrium, "The untainted lyrium." I'm guessing this is why Varric doesn't freak out when Bianc makes her "revelation," because everyone else just assumed. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

More to the point, though, there's no indication that the Darkspawn ever broke in to allow the Blight to contaminate it. The Blight needs proximity and contact to infect people and things, but the Primevial Thaig lacks the indicators or evidene of Darkspawn infestation that we see almost everywhere else in the Deep Roads.

Nor would Darkspawn have to. Red Lyrium is infected too remember? It could have grown its way inside, and spread the infection on its own. It would have had around 1000 years to do it.

[Hellion Rex]

Nor would Darkspawn have to. Red Lyrium is infected too remember? It could have grown its way inside, and spread the infection on its own. It would have had around 1000 years to do it.

Probably even longer than that.

 

I too have to wonder if the dwarves once held magic and the red lyrium took it away?

[myahele]

The idol kinda look like elven design to me