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[EmperorSahlertz]

Probably even longer than that.

 

I too have to wonder if the dwarves once held magic and the red lyrium took it away?

The idol kinda look like elven design to me

I always figured that the Primevial isn't Dwarven at all, but Elven. It just makes sense that way to me. it would explain the different architecture, and the fact that an Elven staff was found in the treasure.

 

It could also explain why Tamlen saw a city under ground through the Eluvian, if it connected to an Eluvian in the Primevial Thaig, and it would explain how he could contract the taint through it.

[Jaison1986]

What if that's it? Did we just figured it out? What if... what if the black city is Arlathan? The elves created the taint. It was an weapon they created when they warred against each other. But then it got out of control. And their city fell to corruption. And before the taint could destroy the world, they created the veil. Sealed an entire city into the fade in the hopes it would stay there forever?

[Tookah45]

What if that's it? Did we just figured it out? What if... what if the black city is Arlathan? The elves created the taint. It was an weapon they created when they warred against each other. But then it got out of control. And their city fell to corruption. And before the taint could destroy the world, they created the veil. Sealed an entire city into the fade in the hopes it would stay there forever?

And then destroyed all record of it happening and the means to do so, "losing" their culture to tie off any loose ends and prevent a recurrence. Not the craziest theory!

[Br3admax]

The Black City can't be Arlathan if it was able to be found in the Fade long before the elves sank it. 

[Jaison1986]

The Black City can't be Arlathan if it was able to be found in the Fade long before the elves sank it. 

 

Is it? I don't remember the ancient elves recording about an city in the fade before the humans of the imperium came.

[Br3admax]

Considering Arlathan wasn't destroyed until the Imperium was near its height, there's really no point there. 

[Jypsi]

What if the red lyrium wasn’t a side effect of the blight but maybe the cause. We know it causes madness and song ringing in the ears of the infected, songs that tell them to do things.  

One thing that I remember about Awakenings was that both the Mother and the Architect speaking of the song that whispered to them. It also was a song that led him to the Archdemon. He said that all the darkspawn can think about is finding the origin of the music. He had been working on blocking the song from his kind so if your warden let him live it might explain why the darkspawn don’t seem to notice the red lyrium at all. 

The blight lives in the deep road with the darkspawn. It could be that the red lyrium was trapped with the old god and the blight let it spread to the surface. Which would explain why we first see it in DA2. The red templars prove just how fast it grows, I think it could’ve made it to the primeval thiag (which was also very deep in the deep roads) within a year for Hawke and Varric to find. If you remember the Idol called to Bartrand and had driven him completely mad by the time he found it. Also the idol wasn't the first time we see the red lyrium it was surrounding the thiag as Hawke first stumbles upon it . 

[myahele]

In the final scene when Cory lifted up remnants of Haven and tore open the veil made me think of the Black City for a reason.

What if that's how the Golden/black city came to be? A remnant of the real world plunged into the Fade and being kept there via elven magic? If the Orb can keep one safe in the fade then perhaps something similar is in the Black City?

[Aimi]

Nor would Darkspawn have to. Red Lyrium is infected too remember? It could have grown its way inside, and spread the infection on its own. It would have had around 1000 years to do it.

I posted something like this in the original thread, but it's entirely possible for the idol to have been left there by a subsequent visitor to the thaig, darkspawn or otherwise.

For instance, we know that golems were invented by Caridin in -225 Ancient, during the First Blight; therefore, they postdated the abandonment/death of the primeval thaig. But there is a golem in the thaig itself: it's in that first fight you have after leaving the expedition's encampment. That golem may have reached the thaig after the thaig was lost...or it may have been moved there by someone or something.

I think it's very unlikely that the dwarves got the date of golems' invention wrong, mostly because unlike the idol, Caridin is a figure of well-recorded history. The only reason we have to believe that the idol predates the First Blight is conjecture. I don't remember if it's Varric or Hawke who says it, but one of the expedition members guesses that the thaig's temple was built to house the idol. There's no particular reason we should assume this to be true.

Despite all this, I don't actually believe that the idol was left in the thaig by a later visitor. I simply want to point out the possibility: it means that we can't be sure that red lyrium predates the First Blight. It's certainly a tantalizing hint, but not conclusive evidence.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I posted something like this in the original thread, but it's entirely possible for the idol to have been left there by a subsequent visitor to the thaig, darkspawn or otherwise.

For instance, we know that golems were invented by Caridin in -225 Ancient, during the First Blight; therefore, they postdated the abandonment/death of the primeval thaig. But there is a golem in the thaig itself: it's in that first fight you have after leaving the expedition's encampment. That golem may have reached the thaig after the thaig was lost...or it may have been moved there by someone or something.

I think it's very unlikely that the dwarves got the date of golems' invention wrong, mostly because unlike the idol, Caridin is a figure of well-recorded history. The only reason we have to believe that the idol predates the First Blight is conjecture. I don't remember if it's Varric or Hawke who says it, but one of the expedition members guesses that the thaig's temple was built to house the idol. There's no particular reason we should assume this to be true.

Despite all this, I don't actually believe that the idol was left in the thaig by a later visitor. I simply want to point out the possibility: it means that we can't be sure that red lyrium predates the First Blight. It's certainly a tantalizing hint, but not conclusive evidence.

Caridin based his invention of Golems off of ancient Dwarven tales about warriors of stone. I always just assumed that the Golems we encounter in the Primevial Thaig are these creature warriors of legend.

[Aimi]

Caridin based his invention of Golems off of ancient Dwarven tales about warriors of stone. I always just assumed that the Golems we encounter in the Primevial Thaig are these creature warriors of legend.

That's stretching things further; one might as well think that the ancient Greeks had robots because automata and "attendants" appear in their myths. Caridin's journal entry implies that "statues animated by the dead" are legendary. That's a long way from something that looks exactly like all other Anvil golems showing up in the primeval thaig.

Either way, though, the golem example was just designed to illustrate the point that it's entirely possible that the primeval thaig saw more visitors than just the expedition. It's not proof, it's a thought experiment, and the point survives on its own.

[EmperorSahlertz]

That's stretching things further; one might as well think that the ancient Greeks had robots because automata and "attendants" appear in their myths. Caridin's journal entry implies that "statues animated by the dead" are legendary. That's a long way from something that looks exactly like all other Anvil golems showing up in the primeval thaig.

Either way, though, the golem example was just designed to illustrate the point that it's entirely possible that the primeval thaig saw more visitors than just the expedition. It's not proof, it's a thought experiment, and the point survives on its own.

well, yes. But magic and Dwarves don't really exist in our world though. In Thedas however, it is not really a stretch to imagine that the golems of old were actually real. As to why they look the same: BioWare probably just didn't want to cough up the money and animation time needed to make unique models to be used once in passing.

 

And yeah, there is no reason to think that Hawke and co. were the only ones to visit the place in over 1000 years.

[myahele]

There was a discussion about red lyrium in the Elder One thread. From what we know it predates the 1st blight. It "wants to be worshipped" also Kirkwall was built/settled because of something that interested the Ancient Magisters.

Could it be possibility that red lyrium idol was a joint project by both Elves and Dwarves? Dwarves did coexist with elves, so whose to say some factions didn't interact and traded with each other...maybe even built weapons.

[UFOKaraage]

I always figured that the Primevial isn't Dwarven at all, but Elven. It just makes sense that way to me. it would explain the different architecture, and the fact that an Elven staff was found in the treasure.

 

It could also explain why Tamlen saw a city under ground through the Eluvian, if it connected to an Eluvian in the Primevial Thaig, and it would explain how he could contract the taint through it.

 

I think this is completely possible. I think Tamlen and the Warden in the Dalish Elf Origin in DAO discovered another underground thaig/ruins/temple, which led to Tamlen suggesting ancient elves lived underground at some point in history. It certainly does explain how the Eluvians between these two underground areas were connected.

[errantknight]

What if that's it? Did we just figured it out? What if... what if the black city is Arlathan? The elves created the taint. It was an weapon they created when they warred against each other. But then it got out of control. And their city fell to corruption. And before the taint could destroy the world, they created the veil. Sealed an entire city into the fade in the hopes it would stay there forever?

I've been wondering this myself. Solas says that the elves worked vast complicated magics that took years and affected other magic in a big, multilevelled ways. Something like that could go awry pretty easily. He also mentions cities not being in the trees but floating above them, and that they didn't draw a line between magic and blood magic. I think that the elves may actually have destroyed themselves with a big spell gone awry and either affecting something it shouldn't have or been something that unfolded over years and the negative effect wasn't noticed until it was too late. Perhaps they moved the hopelessly infected city to the fade to protect the world and doing so wealened them, costing them their immortality.