272 réponses à ce sujet

[errantknight]

Any time part of the population isn't seen as 'people', you're going to have abuse and that can mean different things in different cultures.

[d4eaming]

Good question, since Dorian explicitly says that he prefers the company of men, and that his father disapproves of that, specifically.

...because he doesn't want to **** a woman. Which is the issue. Since in order to produce heirs, that's what he's required to do. And THAT is what he's bucking. The fact he's gay is tangential. It could have been because he loves someone else, or that he's asexual, and the outcome would have been the same.

 

He never says his father wanted to un-gay-ify him. He says his father wants to change him. Changing him could have meant anything. It could have meant making him susceptible to suggestion, it could have meant making him completely obedient and taking away his free will, it could have meant forcing him to like women, it could have meant a whole lot of things. "Change" is very ambiguous.

 

He doesn't want to live a lie. The reason he doesn't want to live a lie is irrelevant, because that reason could have been any number of things. He explicitly states that marriage in Tevinter has nothing to do with love, and that it'd mean living a life with someone he potentially despised, and that that was unacceptable to him.

 

You are so hung up on the gay issue you cannot possibly even conceive of any other reasoning. And that is seriously a you issue, not a writing issue.

[Quaddis]

Is anyone here unable to recruit Dorian?

[pengwin21]

I never said that it was an open thing and everyone is okay with it and all is fine and dandy. My argument was that they don't object to homosexuality as much as they object to refusing to play by their breeding game, so Dorian's father's random disapproval to the extent of trying to change his sexuality with blood magic doesn't make sense, and making Dorian's sexuality the problem that his father is trying to change rather than Dorian's response to his sexuality is what I don't like.

 

Dorian's sexuality is irrelevant. His refusal to play by their rules would still be present, whether he wanted to sleep with a woman or a man, so it's odd that his father chose to change the one thing that isn't actually a proper issue in Tevinter.

 

Except it wasn't stated that the blood magic would only change his orientation, it could have been to alter his free will completely. His father wanted to alter Dorian's wish not to marry a Tevinter noblewoman. How exactly this would be accomplished isn't clear to Dorian and his father doesn't elaborate- you're making the assumption that only the orientation would be changed when the dialogue does not support this.

[Lady Artifice]

Wow...I don't get. I thought it was fantastic. Even if the argument is that a homosexual character's story arc involving his sexuality has been done to death, this wasn't a typical example of that. I thought it was one of the best personal character stories they've done. 

 

Part of that might be my bias towards Dorian, since he's now my favorite companion of all time...but I don't that's all of it. I thought the whole thing was absurdly touching, especially the post quest conversation with him. 

[Bethgael]

I'm not saying he's a badly written character, I'm saying his companion quest was badly written. Everybody else's was about a genuine personal struggle they had, either between morals and pragmatism or finding something out that shook their entire worldview. Dorian's wasn't. It was a really hamfisted attempt at an IRL political commentary.

 

Except it is about a genuine personal struggle. He loves Tevinter, yet self-exiled because the father he loved, who had been supportive of him until Dorian refused to marry a woman to carry on the family line, then went against everything he'd told Dorian he believed in to try and "fix" his son--including blood magic, etc., to control Dorian's mind--because he could not accept Dorian for who he was. Until that point, Dorian had trusted his father; they'd been on the same page. Then Alexius, his mentor, does the same thing--albeit for different reasons.

 

After that, his world shattered to the point he left his own homeland, that, I reiterate, he loved and wanted to change.

If something like that didn't shake his worldview, I don't know what would.

[Akkos]

But why join the Inquisition? To kill Venetori or to change what really?

[Bethgael]

But why join the Inquisition? To kill Venetori or to change what really?

He starts out just wanting to sort out--stop--Alexius' time magic, which will "rip apart the fabric of the world." But... If you choose

Spoiler

the mages, he is the only person, besides the Inquisitor, who sees, remembers, and understands exactly where Corypheus is taking Thedas. Including Tevinter. He's thoroughly invested in preventing that Very Bad outcome--the future he sees when Alexius sends him and the Inquisitor into the future. As he says to his father, later, "I didn't join the Inquisition because of you. I joined because it is the right thing to do."

[Wanderlust14]

But why join the Inquisition? To kill Venetori or to change what really?

 

He joins the Inquisition because he knows the Venatori are involved with the Elder One and he wants to stop him and the Venatori. His personal reasoning seems to be the idea that he knows the Venatori are bad for Tevinter and he wants to stop them before they set Tevinter back and the Elder One is bad for Thedas (since he put a giant hole in the sky and someone who does that is worth stopping)

[Goldarmy]

Except Dorian's was a genuine personal struggle that both he and many gay men and women have had to deal with.

 

Except Dorian is not a homosexual person living in a very advanced industrial country. He is living in a feudal fantasy world. Their struggles aren't exactly same.

Even the struggles of homosexual people in a very advanced industrial world where there are no technological advance to change orientation and the struggles of homosexual people in a very advanced industrial world where there are working technological advances to change orientation cannot be same.

It is why the story doesn't fit.

[droitdivin]

Is anyone here unable to recruit Dorian?

After Templar quest line, you have to talk to him in Skyhold (in the library tower). 

[Wulfram]

I liked the quest.

 

Didn't really like adding another Gratuitously Crappy thing to Tevinter, though.

[Fishy]

Dorian tell the inquisitor that sex with the same sex is not a problem in tevinter. It's just for ''pleasure''. But a noble like him has to ''marry' and have kids with a woman. But he don't want that. He want to be happy.

 

He even told you that they could ''rewrite'' him with some blood magic ritual. That prob why he just keep bragging about how awesome he is. It's just a way for him to cope with this,

[Voragoras]

Except it is about a genuine personal struggle. He loves Tevinter, yet self-exiled because the father he loved, who had been supportive of him until Dorian refused to marry a woman to carry on the family line, then went against everything he'd told Dorian he believed in to try and "fix" his son--including blood magic, etc., to control Dorian's mind--because he could not accept Dorian for who he was. Until that point, Dorian had trusted his father; they'd been on the same page. Then Alexius, his mentor, does the same thing--albeit for different reasons.

 

After that, his world shattered to the point he left his own homeland, that, I reiterate, he loved and wanted to change.

If something like that didn't shake his worldview, I don't know what would.

 

Oh, I agree with that, and I agree that the rejection with blood magic could be compelling, but my point was that his personal struggle was defined by his sexuality, rather than his actual personality. Another poster pointed out that it wasn't clear what the blood magic would actually do to him, but from the conversation, it's clear that it was his sexuality that sparked the conversion, not his behaviour. If it had been the latter, it would've been a decent quest, but that's not what I saw.

 

Like I said, I feel like it sacrificed a great opportunity to delve into Dorian's actual history and actions in favour of political commentary. Which, I feel like I should add, I don't oppose, but I do want it handled well when it happens. I don't feel like it was here.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Even the struggles of homosexual people in a very advanced industrial world where there are no technological advance to change orientation and the struggles of homosexual people in a very advanced industrial world where there are working technological advances to change orientation cannot be same.

 

Um, what? In what society, advanced and industrial or otherwise, are there 'technological advances' that change sexual orientation? All evidence suggests that this is not possible. (Or necessary. But leaving that aside for one moment ...)

[nightscrawl]

... but my point was that his personal struggle was defined by his sexuality, rather than his actual personality.

Dorian is a non-conformist regarding many things, not just his sexuality and unwillingness to be in an unhappy marriage. He goes on about the various things he wants to change in Tevinter and how he doesn't agree with how they look at the outside world and so forth.

 

His personal struggle was not defined by his sexuality, it was a part of it, just as it (his sexuality) is a part of him, but not the sole defining factor. If Dorian wasn't such a non-conformist he would have gotten married and we never would have met him in the first place. He wants to be himself, and be liked for himself, all facets of that. You can see that in the various banter or other dialog where people make negative comments about mages or Tevinter and throw those things at Dorian like he is to blame or like he is representative of the "bad," when that's not the case.

 

To me, his deep patriotism for Tevinter is a major aspect of his personality. I was rather torn at the end of my first play when he said he was staying. On the one hand we have the game mechanic issue of the post-campaign play so they all (mostly...) need to give some reason for hanging around for that. It was also super nice when he called me a friend and stated that that is why he was staying. BUT, I also kind of wanted him to go back to Tevinter and affect the change and reforms that are so meaningful to him and others.

[Sifr]

 

He never says his father wanted to un-gay-ify him. He says his father wants to change him. Changing him could have meant anything. It could have meant making him susceptible to suggestion, it could have meant making him completely obedient and taking away his free will, it could have meant forcing him to like women, it could have meant a whole lot of things. "Change" is very ambiguous.

 

Uh, I'm pretty sure that the use of blood magic to change Dorian in a way that would make him "acceptable" to Tevinter society is exactly that.

 

We know that blood magic is able to influence and manipulated someone's mind, desires and bend their will to the person using it, but most of the time the blood magic we see tends to be short term. This was apparently meant to be a permanent spell and Dorian mentions that it could have left him a complete vegetable, suggesting that rather than simply manipulate him into producing an heir with a woman and release control once that was done, Dorian's father wanted to permanently alter his son's sexual orientation via magic.

 

I don't really see anything ambiguous about it, it seemed pretty obvious to me that it was exactly how Dorian made it sound?

 

As for the scene itself, I thought it was brilliant. I don't know why some people have a problem with it?

[Voragoras]

Dorian is a non-conformist regarding many things, not just his sexuality and unwillingness to be in an unhappy marriage. He goes on about the various things he wants to change in Tevinter and how he doesn't agree with how they look at the outside world and so forth.

 

His personal struggle was not defined by his sexuality, it was a part of it, just as it (his sexuality) is a part of him, but not the sole defining factor. If Dorian wasn't such a non-conformist he would have gotten married and we never would have met him in the first place. He wants to be himself, and be liked for himself, all facets of that. You can see that in the various banter or other dialog where people make negative comments about mages or Tevinter and throw those things at Dorian like he is to blame or like he is representative of the "bad," when that's not the case.

 

I know, and I think that aspect of him was well-written outside of his personal quest, as I've said. My issue was that this part of him wasn't what the quest focused on, it was his sexuality, and I think that did him a disservice.

 

I love Dorian as a character, but I just don't think his personal quest was well-written. That's all.

[Maiafay]

His personal quest was well written enough to invoke an emotional reaction in many people, hence the amount of responses on the thread. The VA was some of the best I've experienced in any video game. That alone makes Dorian's personal quest memorable regardless of so-called trite or tired context. His sexuality is tied to his behavior only because he refuses to conform to his Father's expectations. If I hated to draw and my father wanted me to be an artist, the fact I don't like drawing would be the obstacle.

Dorian isn't attracted to women, hence no rug rats for the Pavus family. His sexuality is only a factor because it ruins the Pavus legacy, not because of any moral issue. I think it's all about interpretation here, and some people will cry political agenda because that is all they see.

[JimBlandings]

Cliche would imply that a story or event has lost its impact. In this case, that is not so. Learn the goddamn terminology...

 

Dude the "my parents tried to turn me straight!" crap was cliche in 90s made for Lifetime TV movies.

[MPSai]

I assume some gay men in Tevinter would marry women and have kids for the sake of mage eugenics, but have lovers on the side. Dorian was just like "to hell with that bullshit" and his father decided to try to use ghastly magic to resolve the issue as you do in Tevinter. Seems pretty consistent to me. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Dude the "my parents tried to turn me straight!" crap was cliche in 90s made for Lifetime TV movies.

That is not what Dorian's quest is about though, and even if it were it would still not be cliché... You don't know what cliché means evidently.

[Voragoras]

That is not what Dorian's quest is about though, and even if it were it would still not be cliché... You don't know what cliché means evidently.

 

Please don't accuse other posters of not knowing terminology, when it's obvious that they're right. A word can have more than one common use definition with different implications, and "overused/commonplace" is one of cliche's. 

 

 

His personal quest was well written enough to invoke an emotional reaction in many people, hence the amount of responses on the thread. The VA was some of the best I've experienced in any video game. That alone makes Dorian's personal quest memorable regardless of so-called trite or tired context. His sexuality is tied to his behavior only because he refuses to conform to his Father's expectations. If I hated to draw and my father wanted me to be an artist, the fact I don't like drawing would be the obstacle.

Dorian isn't attracted to women, hence no rug rats for the Pavus family. His sexuality is only a factor because it ruins the Pavus legacy, not because of any moral issue. I think it's all about interpretation here, and some people will cry political agenda because that is all they see.

 

Invoking an emotional response does not mean it's well-written or internally consistent. To use a common example others will understand, Twilight evoked an emotional response in millions of people, but does that mean Twilight itself is well-written?