272 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

I assume some gay men in Tevinter would marry women and have kids for the sake of mage eugenics, but have lovers on the side. Dorian was just like "to hell with that bullshit" and his father decided to try to use ghastly magic to resolve the issue as you do in Tevinter. Seems pretty consistent to me. 

 

Aye, it seems that it's expected if you're gay in Tevinter that you have to have a Beard that you knock up for the sake of genetics and public appearances, while your male lovers are kept discreetly on the side. Dorian even implies that his father would have no problem with him sleeping with men, as long as he married someone to keep up appearances and ensure the family legacy.

 

Aside from the blood magic to "change" him, the other real problem between them is it'd be obvious to everyone in Tevinter that knows the Pavus family that Dorian pretending to be straight would be a charade, so he doesn't see the point in maintaining a fiction that everyone already knows is a lie?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Please don't accuse other posters of not knowing terminology, when it's obvious that they're right. A word can have more than one common use definition with different implications, and "overused/commonplace" is one of cliche's. 

Except that they still aren't right, since the subject is NOT overused, nor have it lost its impact. So they are NOT using the word correctly.

 

THEY don't like the plotline, sure, fine, whatever. Why again should we care? That doesn't make it a cliché.

[Voragoras]

Except that they still aren't right, since the subject is NOT overused, nor have it lost its impact. So they are NOT using the word correctly.

 

THEY don't like the plotline, sure, fine, whatever. Why again should we care? That doesn't make it a cliché.

 

It is overused, though, regardless of emotional impact. It's the plotline for nearly every gay character in fiction, with very little deviation. You're also ignoring the other definitions, which make no mention of impact at all, and all that something needs to be qualified as cliche is to be overused. Which it is.

 

Emotional impact is also subjective, so it's perfectly right for that poster to say it's cliche, because it has no impact for them. So, it's a correct usage, even assuming you're denial of other definitions is right.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It is overused, though, regardless of emotional impact. It's the plotline for nearly every gay character in fiction, with very little deviation. You're also ignoring the other definitions, which make no mention of impact at all, and all that something needs to be qualified as cliche is to be overused. Which it is.

 

Emotional impact is also subjective, so it's perfectly right for that poster to say it's cliche, because it has no impact for them. So, it's a correct usage, even assuming you're denial of other definitions is right.

You didn't even read the definitions you linked to did you?

 

"anything that has become trite or commonplace through overuse.".... Trite.... TRITE

Trite; adjective "not interesting or effective because of being used too often"

 

It will have to have lost its effectiveness as a trope to be a cliché. This plot device has NOT lost its effectiveness, since it is still very relevant and still hits home. hence, it is NOT a cliché. And people should stop using words they don't know the meaning of.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

You didn't even read the definitions you linked to did you?

 

"anything that has become trite or commonplace through overuse.".... Trite.... TRITE

Trite; adjective "not interesting or effective because of being used too often"

 

It will have to have lost its effectiveness as a trope to be a cliché. This plot device has NOT lost its effectiveness, since it is still very relevant and still hits home. hence, it is NOT a cliché. And people should stop using words they don't know the meaning of.

I don't know why anyone is bothering arguing with him anymore. He just throws out crap (like saying disowning/reparative therapy is the most common story line for queer characters, when coming out stories outnumber those by far) and ignores everything that contradicts what he says.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't know why anyone is bothering arguing with him anymore. He just throws out crap (like saying disowning/reparative therapy is the most common story line for queer characters, when coming out stories outnumber those by far) and ignores everything that contradicts what he says.

I havn't bothered with this thread, since I read the OP and replied. But i take it this guy is kind of a ******?

[Voragoras]

You didn't even read the definitions you linked to did you?

 

"anything that has become trite or commonplace through overuse.".... Trite.... TRITE

Trite; adjective "not interesting or effective because of being used too often"

 

It will have to have lost its effectiveness as a trope to be a cliché. This plot device has NOT lost its effectiveness, since it is still very relevant and still hits home. hence, it is NOT a cliché. And people should stop using words they don't know the meaning of.

 

"a phrase or opinion that is overused and betrays a lack of original thought"

"a hackneyed theme, characterization, or situation"

"something (as a menu item) that has become overly familiar or commonplace "

"(in art, literature, drama, etc.) a trite or hackneyed plot, character development, use of color, musical expression, etc. "

"anything that has become trite or commonplace through overuse"

 

Notice the usage of the word "or", and the word "hackneyed".

 

 

I don't know why anyone is bothering arguing with him anymore. He just throws out crap (like saying disowning/reparative therapy is the most common story line for queer characters, when coming out stories outnumber those by far) and ignores everything that contradicts what he says.

 

Disowning stories are often interlinked with coming out stories, considering that the reaction of the parents is often negative in most drama series. I also said that the blood magic aspect had the potential to be interesting and unique, if they had taken a different approach to it.

 

I'd also appreciate it if people would stop making personal assumptions about me, purely based on the fact that I dislike this one particular aspect of Dorian's personal quest. I've made no comment about who you are as people, only expressed frustration that you seem to not be reading what I'm saying, and I've said on multiple occasions that it's only a personal view of mine that I find this sidequest to be badly-written. I've even said I love Dorian as a character otherwise.

[EmperorSahlertz]

"a phrase or opinion that is overused and betrays a lack of original thought"

"a hackneyed theme, characterization, or situation"

"something (as a menu item) that has become overly familiar or commonplace "

"(in art, literature, drama, etc.) a trite or hackneyed plot, character development, use of color, musical expression, etc. "

"anything that has become trite or commonplace through overuse"

 

Notice the usage of the word "or", and the word "hackneyed".

You understand that hackneyed, is a biword for trite, yes? So all you did, was provide even more proof against your own opinion...

[Voragoras]

You understand that hackneyed, is a biword for trite, yes? So all you did, was provide even more proof against your own opinion...

 

It means "commonplace or trite". And, like I've said, emotional impact is subjective, so if that poster feels the quest is hackneyed, then they're right. To them, it is.

 

You're ignoring the other definitions, as well. "Commonplace" and "overused" appear in 4/5 of them, and hackneyed only 1/5.

[Gorwyn87]

Wow...I don't get. I thought it was fantastic. Even if the argument is that a homosexual character's story arc involving his sexuality has been done to death, this wasn't a typical example of that. I thought it was one of the best personal character stories they've done. 

 

Part of that might be my bias towards Dorian, since he's now my favorite companion of all time...but I don't that's all of it. I thought the whole thing was absurdly touching, especially the post quest conversation with him. 

 

Same for me. This was the first quest for me that had a really personal feel to it, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, it was also mainly about parental control and not meeting expectations, instead of just being about being gay.

[Eivuwan]

Aiya, so much nitpicking over nothing. Bottom-line is that Bioware had good intentions and created a scene that had emotional impact for many players, gay or not.

[DuskWanderer]

Aiya, so much nitpicking over nothing. Bottom-line is that Bioware had good intentions and created a scene that had emotional impact for many players, gay or not.

 

Eh, I wouldn't say so. It was boldly going where every after school special about it went before. Hard to resonate with that.

[Birdy]

*Shoves the gay agenda down his throat*

 

Ok guys, we can move on. He's been Re-educated.

This, Sorry.  XD It's totally true and I'm gay.

Curious, does the game even give you an option to shut him down for being gay? 

[Harlot]

I cba about an "agenda" or whatever. The quest was literally "go and walk into a tavern. The end". Compared to that the DA2 companion quests are huge elaborates on humanoid relations and epic adventures rivaling that of Odyssey. Lazy. So lazy.

[LiaraShepard]

I cba about an "agenda" or whatever. The quest was literally "go and walk into a tavern. The end". Compared to that the DA2 companion quests are huge elaborates on humanoid relations and epic adventures rivaling that of Odyssey. Lazy. So lazy.

 

yes, it was the shortest quest of alle companions. I was really disappointed with that. It's not that I don't like the meeting with his father, but I thought it would be longer...as in DA2, where the quests were portioned into three pieces. I thought it's just the beginning and there's more than that. But that was it. :/

[Bethgael]

After Templar quest line, you have to talk to him in Skyhold (in the library tower). 

Alternatively, if you do the mage quest line instead, he joins you for it, and will join permanently when it's done (in that case, Cole joins at the Haven battle instead).

[Iakus]

If you are refering to the scene in the tavern it was heartbreaking. When he says "You tried to change me" I had to let out some tears. For a scene like that to appear in a game? do you know how valueable that is?. Atleast to me it was important. Thanks to Bioware for creating Dorian!

But Synthesis is the final evolution of life!

 

Oh, wait, wrong game

 

Anyway, I saw a lot more in Dorians quest than his sexuality:  We get a glimpse at the eugenics program in Tevinter, breeding people like livestock.  I mean let's face it, Dorian could have been straight and it would have been a sad story.  Look at how he describes his own parents, after all.

 

That his own father tried to use blood magic on him (And Dorian vehemently opposes blood magic on gneral principle, making that even harder on him) 

 

The importance of bloodlines among Tevinter nobility.  I mean, Dorian's an altus, he traces his family back to the original Tevinter Dreamers. 

 

If there's any criticism about the stroyline it's that it draws upon the "daddy issues" that have become something of a standbye for personal quests.

[Voragoras]

I cba about an "agenda" or whatever. The quest was literally "go and walk into a tavern. The end". Compared to that the DA2 companion quests are huge elaborates on humanoid relations and epic adventures rivaling that of Odyssey. Lazy. So lazy.

 

To be fair, Vivienne's wasn't exactly huge, either. I wasn't a fan of that one as well, mostly because I felt it was a missed opportunity to delve into her ambition and power-hungry personality, but was instead a pretty typical "kill a wyvern so I can fail to revive my lover and then make a sad face".

 

Although it does imply that she's trying to conquer mortality, so it does offer some insight there, I guess. Meh. I still felt it was pretty cheap.

[Iakus]

To be fair, Vivienne's wasn't exactly huge, either. I wasn't a fan of that one as well, mostly because I felt it was a missed opportunity to delve into her ambition and power-hungry personality, but was instead a pretty typical "kill a wyvern so I can fail to revive my lover and then make a sad face".

 

Although it does imply that she's trying to conquer mortality, so it does offer some insight there, I guess. Meh. I still felt it was pretty cheap.

I think that showed a very human side of her.  Her elixer wasn't about power from herself, but trying to save "her Duke".  She clearly saw him as more than a stepping stone to more power.  Vivienne genuinely loved him.

[Voragoras]

I think that showed a very human side of her.  Her elixer wasn't about power from herself, but trying to save "her Duke".  She clearly saw him as more than a stepping stone to more power.  Vivienne genuinely loved him.

 

Oh, I know that, but I just personally liked how she seemed to be a determined politician to the core, so I wanted to see more of that. I appreciated that it showed a weakness of hers in that she wasn't all about grabbing power and calling people "dear/darling" with a smug superiority (which I liked about her, btw, I thought it was great in party banter), but I did want it to be a bit more... expansive. Perhaps him dying as a result of her ambition, so it seems more like a character flaw of hers, while also showing her trying to blast past her grief in an attempt to not be seen upset and "salvage her pride"?

 

I dunno.

[Maiafay]

Please don't accuse other posters of not knowing terminology, when it's obvious that they're right. A word can have more than one common use definition with different implications, and "overused/commonplace" is one of cliche's. 

 

 

 

Invoking an emotional response does not mean it's well-written or internally consistent. To use a common example others will understand, Twilight evoked an emotional response in millions of people, but does that mean Twilight itself is well-written?

I was trying to be nice, because what is one person's "well-written" is another's trash. I think Twilight is crap, yeah, but someone else may think it's the best thing ever. It depends on the resonance of the story, how much it affects the person reading or watching it.

 

YMMV on this one it seems, because we're still wasting time bitching back and forth about this quest. No one is going to convince me that it was crap. That it was cliche. That it was some political agenda. His quest was reconciling (or not) with his father who had betrayed his trust. That's the core of the matter to Dorian. For those who want to see it as some gay agenda, then whatever. See it that way. Nothing I say will convince otherwise. Same goes for those who insist that Dorian's father had a problem with Dorian liking men. It was ONLY a problem because Dorian's preferences meant no baby magelettes running around.

 

So for those who think it was tripe...what do you want? A cookie? A gold star? It's all interpretation. If it worked for you, cool. If it didn't, it didn't. Like Cassandra says, there's some people who stand in the fire and complain that it's hot. Gaider isn't going to add a DLC to change anything about Dorian or his quests. And Gaider has every right to present the character as he sees fit. He's god of this sandbox. If you don't like it, find another to play in, or make your own.

[Voragoras]

I was trying to be nice, because what is one person's "well-written" is another's trash. I think Twilight is crap, yeah, but someone else may think it's the best thing ever. It depends on the resonance of the story, how much it affects the person reading or watching it.

 

YMMV on this one it seems, because we're still wasting time bitching back and forth about this quest. No one is going to convince me that it was crap. That it was cliche. That it was some political agenda. His quest was reconciling (or not) with his father who had betrayed his trust. That's the core of the matter to Dorian. For those who want to see it as some gay agenda, then whatever. See it that way. Nothing I say will convince otherwise. Same goes for those who insist that Dorian's father had a problem with Dorian liking men. It was ONLY a problem because Dorian's preferences meant no baby magelettes running around.

 

So for those who think it was tripe...what do you want? A cookie? A gold star? It's all interpretation. If it worked for you, cool. If it didn't, it didn't. Like Cassandra says, there's some people who stand in the fire and complain that it's hot. Gaider isn't going to add a DLC to change anything about Dorian or his quests. And Gaider has every right to present the character as he sees fit. He's god of this sandbox. If you don't like it, find another to play in, or make your own.

 

Hm. Well, I disagree on your classification of well-written, but I do agree that neither of us is going to convince the other. I said as much on the thread before, but I do think there's value in explaining our positions so that the grounds for our disagreement is at least well-understood.

 

I also don't think it's very fair for you to say "if you don't like it, go away". This is a forum for discussion, and negative discussion has just as much place here as positive discussion. I loved DA2, for example, but I accept that people disliking it and their reasons for disliking it belong here just as much as my reasons for liking it do. It's healthy to discuss your opinions with others, especially with others who don't share those opinions, provided everybody is polite and reasonable about it. Exposing yourself to alternative views and tolerating them is important.

[MadMaximoff]

I thought Dorians side quest was really well done, well voice acted, well animated.

 

It's still a real issue in modern society and the way it was delivered was brilliant.

 

The issue is larger than sexuality that Bioware are trying to point out, there's also such a thing as arranged marriages that are still very much an issue and Bioware points those out in two different storylines.

 

Both are all the better for carrying a real world message behind them.