272 réponses à ce sujet

[gothicshark]

So freakin cliche, and contradicts texts of 'sexuality in thedas'.  Makes no sense.  Sigh, pushing agendas again instead of telling a creative story.

Ok, I have to respond.

In Thedas Homosexuality, and Bi-Sexuality are not taboo, and are fully excepted norms in their societies. However, Parents even highly aware and good parents can have a bad reaction to finding out your precious child is Gay. Which is the point of the whole side story. His father is accepting of people and is clearly not a bigot, however he took it badly when he realized he wasn't going to have grand kids.

[InstantNoodlez]

Ok, I have to respond.

In Thedas Homosexuality, and Bi-Sexuality are not taboo, and are fully excepted norms in their societies. However, Parents even highly aware and good parents can have a bad reaction to finding out your precious child is Gay. Which is the point of the whole side story. His father is accepting of people and is clearly not a bigot, however he took it badly when he realized he wasn't going to have grand kids.

 

I wish they made that more evident. It is exactly like homosexuality and bisexuality in a lot of cultures before Abrahamic religions took over.

It is ok until you are not making alliances and/or outputting offspring.

 

Too bad most gamers are so conditioned by current society's various views and arguments on gays, that they see that and only that in this game.

[SadisticChunkyDwarf]

lol Who cares? Everyone disappoints their parents in some way, and it's only human of them to want you to make decisions that fit their world view. The child is also correct that they should be allowed to make decisions for themselves, but you can't really fault either side. So yes it's a very cliche storyline, regardless of the reason why the estrangement took place to begin with.

 

That's what I chose to focus on rather than the aspect that "Dorian is gay". I honestly don't give a rats ass. So if that was the intention, it failed horribly.

[carlo angelo]

We're going to be walking a fine line here, but sexuality in storytelling can't exist without context.

 

I liked how Dorian's personal quest was handled well enough. I thought it was nice. And I liked how it was connected to his choice to be true to himself because I feel that's something that resonates with a lot of us- it's just that in this case, sexuality plays a part in it.

 

"I just want him to acknowledge that he's just gay and that's it."

 

But... in terms of storytelling and character development, where's the fun in that? I get there's a difference between a "gay story" and a story that so happens to have a gay protagonist in it, but I feel this is "normalising" (for lack of a better word) his experience to an audience so it's not this big, scary "OHOHO, I'm gonna make you gay if you choose to indulge in this aspect of the story".

 

I suppose I'll take the family issues over a dead, gay lover for context and backstory...

[Br3admax]

We're going to be walking a fine line here, but sexuality in storytelling can't exist without context.

I'm just going to go ahead and stop you right there, and ask, "What?"

 

Every other sexuality seems to do it just fine. I don't think it's "cliche" but it certainly didn't need to be as big a deal as it was. I don't care that it is, it just didn't necessarily have to be.

[Barathos]

We're going to be walking a fine line here, but sexuality in storytelling can't exist without context.

 

I liked how Dorian's personal quest was handled well enough. I thought it was nice. And I liked how it was connected to his choice to be true to himself because I feel that's something that resonates with a lot of us- it's just that in this case, sexuality plays a part in it.

 

"I just want him to acknowledge that he's just gay and that's it."

 

But... in terms of storytelling and character development, where's the fun in that? I get there's a difference between a "gay story" and a story that so happens to have a gay protagonist in it, but I feel this is "normalising" (for lack of a better word) his experience to an audience so it's not this big, scary "OHOHO, I'm gonna make you gay if you choose to indulge in this aspect of the story".

 

I suppose I'll take the family issues over a dead, gay lover for context and backstory...

ME3's gay romance with the pilot was incredibly, and ethically, wrong imo.

 

Because I am lame and have no clue how to do spoilers, I'll refrain from saying why, but YEESH it was bad.

 

 

 

[/spoiler]

Hmm maybe it's this?

[TEWR]

ME3's gay romance with the pilot was incredibly, and ethically, wrong imo.

 

Because I am lame and have no clue how to do spoilers, I'll refrain from saying why, but YEESH it was bad.

 

 

 

[/spoiler]

Hmm maybe it's this?

 

It's [ spoiler] what you wanna type [ /spoiler]

 

But no spaces between the brackets.

[CreepingShadow]

The whole gay kid with disapproving parents has been done to death in fiction yeah, but it's somewhat subverted here the father isn't upset that his son is gay, he's upset that his son won't enter into a political union and produce an heir to the family.

[Battlebloodmage]

Not about making the straight audience feels comfortable (they have already done that what with all their bi males characters who prefer females over males but that's another issue for another topic) but more like treating the every sexuality the same. Bioware seems to have failed on that front since the only 2 gay characters they have are revolved around their sexuality. There are ways to let people know that a particular character is gay like commenting on other males' attractiveness or talk about their past lovers, you know? Like with other straight or supposed bi characters they have.

[CreepingShadow]

Not about making the straight audience feels comfortable (they have already done with with all their bi males characters which prefer females over males but that's another issue for another topic) but more like treating the every sexuality the same. Bioware seems to have failed on that front since the only 2 gay characters they have are revolved around their sexuality. There are ways to let people know that a particular character is gay like commenting on other males' attractiveness or talk about their past lovers, you know? Like with other straight or supposed bi characters they have.

Won't disagree with you here, and it's moreso a problem with the guys than the girls. Dorian's entire character is centred around his sexuality, with Sera it's just a few comments and unlocks her as a romance option for females. Dorian's a better character than Cortez but they still made a lot of the same mistakes.

[Bladenite1481]

I didn't see it as interesting.  I skipped the scene, read the dialogue and moved on. If you make every single thing a spectacle when dealing with homosexuality then people begin to become desensitized towards it. This game does a lot of that, of making certain issues extremely visible and forced in my opinion. 

 

I prefer stories where sexual preference does not make the person..its just part of who they are. Like..I dont know if any of you watch Flash the new show, but there was a very low key delivery of a gruff gravely toned detective admitting he was gay, he just nonchalantly says "My boyfriend is forcing me to eat healthy at home so work is the only place I can eat something I like" and I loved that. I would like more deliveries like that. I'd rather the story be something more than a fantasized version of a hallmark movie about a teen dealing with his Father not approving of his life choices. I mean being the magical equivalent of the Spartan troops wasn't enough, we had to add that he was gay and put in a whole scene about just that, I just found it a bit..contrived. Felt like the whole Meredith thing to me, I was stoked that we didnt need a mcguffin for her to be just an outright unruly creature of hatred. That she was simply biased and hardwired to hate mages...then the red lyrium sword popped up and I was like.."Oh, lame." 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Won't disagree with you here, and it's moreso a problem with the guys than the girls. Dorian's entire character is centred around his sexuality, with Sera it's just a few comments and unlocks her as a romance option for females. Dorian's a better character than Cortez but they still made a lot of the same mistakes.

That's a ridiculous statement. He spends much more time talking about Tevinter, among other things, than he does about his sexuality. In fact, unless you're romancing him, his sexuality doesn't come up outside of the personal quest and the aftermath scene. Saying that it's his "entire" character is just categorically false.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I didn't see it as interesting.  I skipped the scene, read the dialogue and moved on. If you make every single thing a spectacle when dealing with homosexuality then people begin to become desensitized towards it. This game does a lot of that, of making certain issues extremely visible and forced in my opinion. 

 

I prefer stories where sexual preference does not make the person..its just part of who they are. Like..I dont know if any of you watch Flash the new show, but there was a very low key delivery of a gruff gravely toned detective admitting he was gay, he just nonchalantly says "My boyfriend is forcing me to eat healthy at home so work is the only place I can eat something I like" and I loved that. I would like more deliveries like that. I'd rather the story be something more than a fantasized version of a hallmark movie about a teen dealing with his Father not approving of his life choices. I mean being the magical equivalent of the Spartan troops wasn't enough, we had to add that he was gay and put in a whole scene about just that, I just found it a bit..contrived. Felt like the whole Meredith thing to me, I was stoked that we didnt need a mcguffin for her to be just an outright unruly creature of hatred. That she was simply biased and hardwired to hate mages...then the red lyrium sword popped up and I was like.."Oh, lame." 

And that's how the other nine queer character handle it. Dorian actually discussing his sexuality in more than just passing is the exception rather than the rule.

[ZipZap2000]

I'm just trying to figure out how you use blood magic to make someone straight? 

 

That moment when Dorian says "He tried to change me." though very well presented by the team 8/10.

[Hazegurl]

I do agree that the whole disapproving parent is pretty much a staple of gay TV. I would have liked something that didn't tie into his sexuality but I still enjoyed it and it helped flesh out his character.

[Chrys]

I'm just trying to figure out how you use blood magic to make someone straight? 

 

That moment when Dorian says "He tried to change me." though very well presented by the team 8/10.

 

Well, blood magic can be used to mind control people, so this ritual was probably a variation on that. That said, if you ask Dorian if it would even work, he says he doesn't know and that he might have turned into a drooling vegetable instead.

[SadisticChunkyDwarf]

As a straight person, I'm fine with Dorian as a character. As others have mentioned, he has a lot to talk about and a lot of insight to offer beyond "hey, I'm gay". That's all that I expect out of people. I get equally annoyed with straight guys who feel the need to talk about sex with women 24/7 as I do people who talk too much about being gay, in both cases it just shows insecurity that one has something to offer beyond that. Plus it's just tacky and pretentious. If Dorian was the type to speak at length about his "lovers" and his homosexual escapades, during party banter or other instances where it makes no sense, he'd likely find a swift permanent boot from my party, and that would be that.

 

Dorian as it stands is interesting enough on his own merits, and doesn't require corrective measures.

[Killdren88]

Felt like I was watching a PSA honestly. Just replace Bible camp with Blood Magic and you have a dead on match. I by no means have a problem with Dorian's sexuality, but when it is presented in such a way it feels preachy. Just like the stuff with Krem. If Bioware wants to have gay or Trans characters fine, but make it feel organic instead of filling all the quotas of pandering to all the groups who play these games.

[Sabreenei]

The quest wasn't solely about his sexuality. It was also the fact that he'd looked up to his father, and that his father had always proclaimed to be against blood magic. Yet, when it came down to it, he chose to try blood magic (and perhaps turn his son into a vegetable), rather than lose the family dynasty he wanted to create. So it wasn't just a case of an unaccepting parent, it was a parent you felt cared for you and stood for ideals that you do, betraying all of that and not caring if they erased your personality.

[Battlebloodmage]

And that's how the other nine queer character handle it. Dorian actually discussing his sexuality in more than just passing is the exception rather than the rule.

Actually, it feels more like making the straight audience comfortable because the other bi characters prefer the opposite sex rather than the same sex in all cases. I would tend to agree with you if they actually make some of them express interests in both sexes or homosexuality rather than all of them lean heavily toward heterosexual. 

[Chernaya]

You know what's also cliche? Hero stories with dragons and white knights and bad guys. Doesn't make those things bad. If 10,000 other games can have straight guys showing us how much they love women, but you're complaining about one gay character openly discussing his sexuality which happens almost never, I dunno what to say. 

[SadisticChunkyDwarf]

Actually, it feels more like making the straight audience comfortable because the other bi characters prefer the opposite sex rather than the same sex in all cases. I would tend to agree with you if they actually make some of them express interests in both sexes or homosexuality rather than all of them lean heavily toward heterosexual. 

 

You keep saying that. I fail to see what is wrong with making the straight audience comfortable. It's certainly not done so at the expense of adding gay and bisexual characters, so not seeing the problem. They've done enough pandering to the minority who actually think romancing and this contrived crap is the point of the game. I spent all of 15 minutes with the intent to romance someone, I did, and there surprisingly is still 100+ hours of the game left that in no way involves anyone's sexuality.

 

Thank ****** christ.

[Ailith Tycane]

I don't think it was cliche. I can't think of any games before this one that tackles such a subject, so how is it possible to be cliche when it's never been done in a game before? 

[Bladenite1481]

Because we're not limiting it to games. Its most commonly accepted popular media of today including television, theater, literature and video games. It would have been more interesting if his father disapproved of his mustache, I like Dorian. Usually always have him in the group, but the quest was crap and the scene though well done felt like walking outside Thedas through the fade into the Hallmark made for Television channel world. 

[Hazegurl]

@Ailith, I think they mean cliche in the media overall, not just in gaming.  If you look up gay movies right now I bet you will see hundreds of "coming out" movies. I guess if you haven't watched many gay movies then it's no big deal, but to some who have seen quite a few, it can probably get annoying when the same subject matter is done over and over again.

 

But I like to think of how awesome it is for a gay man to be the protag of a fantasy story where he has to save the world and no one gives two craps about his sexuality. Overall, that can be what sets Dragon Age a part from other stories in gay media. Dorian's side quest is a minor thing and in this particular story, at least for my gay inquisitor story, it fit. Besides, I never got the impression that homosexuality was fully accepted in the Dragon Age verse. You had Zev who was forced to be gay(bi) and Anders who felt the need to defend his relationship with Karl before you even say anything. Dorian's side quest is understandable.