So let
usme slow down, back up, and go through what we really are trying to say here.
That's exactly what you need to do. You quoted my post, I don't see why you had such a huge issue reading it. Also the definition of pandering that I linked is highly highly recommended light reading, since the word seems to be causing you so much distress.
So it was a different user who said "They've done enough pandering to the minority who actually think romancing and this contrived crap is the point of the game"?
Bravo, that's exactly what I said. Though what it has to do with "minorities and females" I can't see. Are you suggesting only females like the romance option? So you're a sexist then.
And you have the audacity to critique the way other people act on forums, when you can't tolerate another persons opinion (and one that for all appearances is shared by those who actually make this game) about the attention a game mechanic deserves without going into a foaming nerd rage?
Right, you set a mighty example for us all to follow. LOL
I really liked Dorian's personal quest. I felt it had more to do with arranged marriages and domineering parents than Dorian being gay. The story would have worked just as well if Dorian was straight but just preferred non-noble or foreign women. That would have been just as much a scandal as being gay. His fathers problem was that Dorian was not going to continue the carefully planned out family line and thats just unthinkable to a Tevinter noble. Not to mention watching your own father betray every principle he taught you in order to control your life is a horrifying experience.
I suppose Asian players would have more of a cultural connection to this type of story than westerners. As I said, it has more to do with excessive parental control and betrayal of trust than Dorian being gay.
and one that for all appearances is shared by those who actually make this game
Oh that is a dev quote I wouldn't mind reading. Do you have a link handy?
I really liked Dorian's personal quest. I felt it had more to do with arranged marriages and domineering parents than Dorian being gay. The story would have worked just as well if Dorian was straight but just preferred non-noble or foreign women. That would have been just as much a scandal as being gay. His fathers problem was that Dorian was not going to continue the carefully planned out family line and thats just unthinkable to a Tevinter noble. Not to mention watching your own father betray every principle he taught you in order to control your life is a horrifying experience.
I suppose Asian players would have more of a cultural connection to this type of story than westerners. As I said, it has more to do with excessive parental control and betrayal of trust than Dorian being gay.
That is what I felt about his personal quest as well. It is about excessive parental control more than anything. Too bad the point was lost on so many players.
I really liked Dorian's personal quest. I felt it had more to do with arranged marriages and domineering parents than Dorian being gay. The story would have worked just as well if Dorian was straight but just preferred non-noble or foreign women. That would have been just as much a scandal as being gay. His fathers problem was that Dorian was not going to continue the carefully planned out family line and thats just unthinkable to a Tevinter noble. Not to mention watching your own father betray every principle he taught you in order to control your life is a horrifying experience.
I suppose Asian players would have more of a cultural connection to this type of story than westerners. As I said, it has more to do with excessive parental control and betrayal of trust than Dorian being gay.
I'm just sayin'. Not all arranged marriages are bad. In Dorian's case I guess, but when a kid trusts their parents to choose a partner for them it doesn't really go badly. Traditionally parents co-ordinate with parents of a boy/girl who have good personalities, and since most of the time parents know their sons/daughters well enough they pick a good partner. And by all means the son/daughter is allowed to turn down the marriage should he/she not find his/her partner attractive. Sadly the appearance of over-dominance by parents, especially those in higher places, turned it into an issue.
I really liked Dorian's personal quest. I felt it had more to do with arranged marriages and domineering parents than Dorian being gay. The story would have worked just as well if Dorian was straight but just preferred non-noble or foreign women. That would have been just as much a scandal as being gay. His fathers problem was that Dorian was not going to continue the carefully planned out family line and thats just unthinkable to a Tevinter noble. Not to mention watching your own father betray every principle he taught you in order to control your life is a horrifying experience.
I suppose Asian players would have more of a cultural connection to this type of story than westerners. As I said, it has more to do with excessive parental control and betrayal of trust than Dorian being gay.
This is what I got as well (hi, I'm another one of those lgbt minorities being pandered to- thanks Bioware!).
What I like here, what I find to be a reversal of expectation is- Dorian's father came to apologize and make up with him! And admit he broke his son's trust! How many lgbt people get to experience that? I only told my mother I was trans, and she's in denial about it, and went through a phase of referring to me way more than normal using female pronouns. It was noticeable. I wasn't rejected, thankfully, but it was still the hardest thing I could have done. We don't talk about it, but boy would I be grateful to hear "I understand now and I'm sorry." We're on good terms, I love my mom and I "get" her reaction to me telling her I'm not right being female, but it's still hard to have that person tell you to your face that you're wrong.
Dorian's father sought him out to make amends. My Dalish Inq urged Dorian to talk to him. The end result was positive, and I get the impression they came to an agreeable understanding with each other.
That was far above what I was expecting in that scene, and I love Bioware for it. Is it perfect? No. But it was still something I could identify with on a very primal level.
Personally I didn't like Dorian's side quest as much as I could have. Felt like he took all these things off his chest but never gave his father the chance to apologize. Plus even when he was going to the scene just cut off, I wanted to know what he was going to say so I can decide whether his father's worth forgiving or not. AND since Dorian speaks so highly of his father, perhaps he should've found it in his heart to forgive him, he saw the error in his ways and saw how much he hurt his son when in the end the parent probably just wants his son to have a better life; at least in his eyes. I just truly believe that looking after your parents, caring, even if they hurt is so important.
I'm just sayin'. Not all arranged marriages are bad. In Dorian's case I guess, but when a kid trusts their parents to choose a partner for them it doesn't really go badly. Traditionally parents co-ordinate with parents of a boy/girl who have good personalities, and since most of the time parents know their sons/daughters well enough they pick a good partner. And by all means the son/daughter is allowed to turn down the marriage should he/she not find his/her partner attractive. Sadly the appearance of over-dominance by parents, especially those in higher places, turned it into an issue.
I always thought parents should have some say in their children's personal lives, if only because they themselves have been through life longer, felt passion and all the disappointments, had practicality override idealism. But the final decision should always rest with the child. Sadly that is not always the case. Parental approval can push people into doing very stupid things.
I've seen arranged marriages work, free marriages fail, and vice versa. It really comes down to the families and individuals.
In Dorian's case, his father has issues. Such issues.
So now you can read the minds of the devs? What you read out of playing the game is now what the devs are thinking?
And there I was thinking some dev made a huge PR blunder.
I can not read the mind of the devs. I can however play their latest title, in which the romance option plays as much a part of the game as in the previous iterations of it. If they felt it was a huge part of the appeal, logic dictates it would consume a comparable amount of development resources, which it doesn't.
Right now it seems about right. One can only assume it "seems about right" to those who developed the game.
But no matter, I don't really need to debate this with witless company.
I can not read the mind of the devs. I can however play their latest title, in which the romance option plays as much a part of the game as in the previous iterations of it. If they felt it was a huge part of the appeal, logic dictates it would consume a comparable amount of development resources, which it doesn't.
Right now it seems about right. One can only assume it "seems about right" to those who developed the game.
But no matter, I don't really need to debate this with witless company.
So going by your logic a working tactical view is not very important to the devs either...
Your whole argument on what the devs feel is all assumption, you realize.
So going by your logic a working tactical view is not very important to the devs either...
Your whole argument on what the devs feel is all assumption, you realize.
Well going by your logic only females and minorities like the romance stuff.
Maybe only big hairy fat dudes living in their moms basement care about tactical cam.
Makes about as much sense as anything you've really said about it thus far lol.
Well going by your logic only females and minorities like the romance stuff.
Maybe only big hairy fat dudes living in their moms basement care about tactical cam.
Makes about as much sense as anything you've really said about it thus far lol.
Ah you do change topics often. (Why would boomerang children live in the basement? Why not their old rooms?)
So what is your point about this game again? That romance for you personally doesn't matter that much? So what about the story line and characters? Do they also not matter as much compared to game play?
Personally I've never found the pure combat/crafting aspect of any Bioware game all that thrilling. Story has always been the most defining feature. Maybe that is why I do tend to get jumpy on story and character related topics.
Slightly sorry that I have vexed you. But these boards do tend to bring out the worst in me. I've been more polite on 4chan.
Ah you do change topics often. (Why would boomerang children live in the basement? Why not their old rooms?)
So what is your point about this game again? That romance for you personally doesn't matter that much? So what about the story line and characters? Do they also not matter as much compared to game play?
Personally I've never found the pure combat/crafting aspect of any Bioware game all that thrilling. Story has always been the most defining feature. Maybe that is why I do tend to get jumpy on story and character related topics.
Slightly sorry that I have vexed you. But these boards do tend to bring out the worst in me. I've been more polite on 4chan.
I'm not changing topics at all. My replies to you have addressed what was there to address.
Most people do play Bioware games for the story. It's a fallacy that stories should have some manner of sexual love interest to be successful. Tolkien and McCarthy come to mind as two writers that have been very successful without paying it much attention. Why should it be shocking that I view it as a small part of the game? For all intents and purposes, it is. That's all I really should need to say about it.
I'm not vexed in the slightest. I knew what I was doing and what I was saying, and I would no doubt offend someone with my views of the game and the story. Most people would rather bicker about current events than be immersed in a world that is relatively devoid of them. That's why the first thing a number of people do when they read a story is to pigeon hole it into some allegorical context, regardless of the authors intentions. So I have to question any notion of respect for the story coming from that crowd.
That's why these threads exist, people can't get away from it. Usually I leave it to the cattle, sometimes I can't help but comment. We're all human.
So freakin cliche, and contradicts texts of 'sexuality in thedas'. Makes no sense. Sigh, pushing agendas again instead of telling a creative story.
I wouldn't say it contradicts that codex. It doesn't seem like his parents disowned him for actually being gay. Dorian refused to marry and breed with the woman his parents had found for him because he knew he'd be miserable. Dorian's father tried to change him so he would marry this woman, but it just so happens the only way to do this would be to change his sexuality, so that's what he set out to do.
Personally I didn't like Dorian's side quest as much as I could have. Felt like he took all these things off his chest but never gave his father the chance to apologize. Plus even when he was going to the scene just cut off, I wanted to know what he was going to say so I can decide whether his father's worth forgiving or not. AND since Dorian speaks so highly of his father, perhaps he should've found it in his heart to forgive him, he saw the error in his ways and saw how much he hurt his son when in the end the parent probably just wants his son to have a better life; at least in his eyes. I just truly believe that looking after your parents, caring, even if they hurt is so important.
As he says to Cole, it can be much harder than that. His father did apologize, but sometimes the hurt and pain can make accepting it too hard. You have to remember, his father basically wanted to perform a ritual on his son that could have lobotomized him and broke all the things he had grown up being taught is wrong. That isn't a little thing to forgive, the "You are so wrong I would rather risk destroying you than have you as my son and if you don't accept, you must leave and are no son of mine." Even after that first apology, it is going to take time for someone to forgive that, even their parents. I understand caring for parents is important to you, but repairing a relationship so broken, especially a relationship that was so close, will take time and it is more realistic for it to take time.
I liked the quest, because it talks of what people in our world who are gay experience. Their relatives will try to "fix" them. Blood magic was a good way to explore that mentality.
To me, this was the focus of the whole scene. When Dorian said that his father wanted "to change" him; the tone of his voice and the look on his face was very powerful. I too thought that the blood magic angle was interesting. We know what blood magic is capable of and we know of its prevalence in Tevinter; all of this was pre-established in the lore, so it's not like it was something made up just for the scene. I thought it worked out very well.
I don't normally have strong reactions to scenes and characters in games. I'll like some of them, I'll dislike some of them, I'll even argue for or against them on the forums, but I don't get emotionally invested in them like some other players. The Dragon Age Confessions tumblr is full of people who confess to sobbing over this or that event, but that has never applied to me. Dorian threw all of that out the window, and it was amazing. In fact, it was the most emotionally powerful scene I have ever experienced across all three Dragon Age games.
Also somewhat related, this was the first scene (there are a few) in DAI where I saw the use of "the F word." At the time I was so impacted by the entire scene that I didn't really consider the ramifications. DAI is the first time it has been used in the DA series (of games), and I felt that it was really well placed and appropriate in this particular scene. I don't need to have "f this" and "f that" thrown around willy nilly. But a well placed swear word can say a lot.
I think for Dorian's case, it is also finding out that his father, whom he had once thought as a virtuous man (He must have been, most of the time, or Dorian would not have turned out the way he did), would do something so against everything he once preached and practiced.
That for anyone would be hard to swallow. I mean imagine a parental figure you looked up to all your life, who taught you about morality and rights from wrong, suddenly commit a crime the very same figure once denounced. (ala Surprise! Your dad, who is a pillar of the community, beat up your step sister when she was in elementary school.)
Even if you forgive that person, the relationship will be awkward for a long time to come, maybe forever. For Dorian, it is even worse. First his father, then his mentor. Each falling to Tevinter's worst vices which they both used to despise. Perhaps Dorian sees the possibility of himself in his elders, and wondered more than once if that too is where he would one day fall.
I think for Dorian's case, it is also finding out that his father, whom he had once thought as a virtuous man (He must have been, most of the time, or Dorian would not have turned out the way he did), would do something so against everything he once preached and practiced.
That for anyone would be hard to swallow. I mean imagine a parental figure you looked up to all your life, who taught you about morality and rights from wrong, suddenly commit a crime the very same figure once denounced. (ala Surprise! Your dad, who is a pillar of the community, beat up your step sister when she was in elementary school.)
Even if you forgive that person, the relationship will be awkward for a long time to come, maybe forever. For Dorian, it is even worse. First his father, then his mentor. Each falling to Tevinter's worst vices which they both used to despise. Perhaps Dorian sees the possibility of himself in his elders, and wondered more than once if that too is where he would one day fall.
Spoiler
I was thinking that too.
I don't know why some people thinks that this is Bioware "shoving agenda down people's throats." I really enjoyed the side quest and felt emotional because I can relate to Dorian in the sense that my parents have also tried to persuade me away from my dreams and goals. I didn't even pay that much attention to the gay aspect. There are actually a lot of things going on with Dorian as a character and for the gay aspect to stick out so strongly that you feel like you need to complain about it says more about you than Bioware's intentions.
I don't know why some people thinks that this is Bioware "shoving agenda down people's throats." I really enjoyed the side quest and felt emotional because I can relate to Dorian in the sense that my parents have also tried to persuade me away from my dreams and goals. I didn't even pay that much attention to the gay aspect. There are actually a lot of things going on with Dorian as a character and for the gay aspect to stick out so strongly that you feel like you need to complain about it says more about you than Bioware's intentions.
Because people think that any gay character who acknowledges that they are gay is "shoving an agenda down people's throats". Damned if they do and damned if they don't. If a gay character has any plot revolving around their sexuality, it's an agenda. If a gay character doesn't have any plot revolving around their sexuality, then they should be bisexual (and thus available to o/s romance) because 'being gay doesn't even fit their character'. Yay, BSN!
Personally I didn't like Dorian's side quest as much as I could have. Felt like he took all these things off his chest but never gave his father the chance to apologize. Plus even when he was going to the scene just cut off, I wanted to know what he was going to say so I can decide whether his father's worth forgiving or not. AND since Dorian speaks so highly of his father, perhaps he should've found it in his heart to forgive him, he saw the error in his ways and saw how much he hurt his son when in the end the parent probably just wants his son to have a better life; at least in his eyes. I just truly believe that looking after your parents, caring, even if they hurt is so important.
I also would have liked to be a fly on the wall in that room, but I do understand why they cut away. It was a private moment between them so it was better for the Inquisitor to leave and let them speak. In the end it's up to Dorian to forgive him.
I actually cracked up when they mentioned the blood magic ritual. Seriously?
"Oh hay gaiz, in case you didn't know, Tevinter is supposed to be evil! You might not have gotten that from the fact that they practice slavery, human sacrifice, and demonic rituals!"
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