272 réponses à ce sujet

[Barathos]

I really liked Dorian's personal quest. I felt it had more to do with arranged marriages and domineering parents than Dorian being gay. The story would have worked just as well if Dorian was straight but just preferred non-noble or foreign women. That would have been just as much a scandal as being gay. His fathers problem was that Dorian was not going to continue the carefully planned out family line and thats just unthinkable to a Tevinter noble. Not to mention watching your own father betray every principle he taught you in order to control your life is a horrifying experience.

 

I suppose Asian players would have more of a cultural connection to this type of story than westerners. As I said, it has more to do with excessive parental control and betrayal of trust than Dorian being gay.

 

Agreed.

 

My brother put it nicely: If I can reverse the situation into a straight scenario, then it's not a gay story. It just has the gay element which changes it slightly, it doesn't harm the story, it doesn't add to the story, it's just part of the story. Dorian's quest could easily be done as a straight male "I don't want to marry the girl!" is a common fantasy-noble notion. 

[Lukas Trevelyan]

As he says to Cole, it can be much harder than that. His father did apologize, but sometimes the hurt and pain can make accepting it too hard. You have to remember, his father basically wanted to perform a ritual on his son that could have lobotomized him and broke all the things he had grown up being taught is wrong. That isn't a little thing to forgive, the "You are so wrong I would rather risk destroying you than have you as my son and if you don't accept, you must leave and are no son of mine." Even after that first apology, it is going to take time for someone to forgive that, even their parents. I understand caring for parents is important to you, but repairing a relationship so broken, especially a relationship that was so close, will take time and it is more realistic for it to take time. 

I understand. But life's too short for you to spend too much time not fixing a relationship with your parents, for all he knows his father can die the following day and he'll live with the guilt that he never told him he forgave him, that their final moment was their fight.. I was glad there was a conversation option where I said "Don't leave it like this Dorian, you'll regret it" or something along the lines.

 

 

I also would have liked to be a fly on the wall in that room, but I do understand why they cut away. It was a private moment between them so it was better for the Inquisitor to leave and let them speak. In the end it's up to Dorian to forgive him.

I do understand, still I wanted to know what was said so I can understand his father more. I genuinely dislike only hearing one side of the story. 

[Wanderlust14]

I understand. But life's too short for you to spend too much time not fixing a relationship with your parents, for all he knows his father can die the following day and he'll live with the guilt that he never told him he forgave him, that their final moment was their fight.. I was glad there was a conversation option where I said "Don't leave it like this Dorian, you'll regret it" or something along the lines.
 

He is fixing it, but somethings can't be fix in a day or conversation. Also, some people, even parents, aren't worth forgiving, but I do think this will be a case where the relationship may improve in the future, but time must be allowed. 

[Lukas Trevelyan]

He is fixing it, but somethings can't be fix in a day or conversation. Also, some people, even parents, aren't worth forgiving, but I do think this will be a case where the relationship may improve in the future, but time must be allowed. 

I guess I'm letting my own fears and experiences cloud my judgement as I've never actually been mistreated by my parents. Still.. 

[Vita Brevis]

Personally I didn't like Dorian's side quest as much as I could have. Felt like he took all these things off his chest but never gave his father the chance to apologize. 

Some things cannot be forgiven.

That poor excuse of a father damn lucky that his son loves him that much. Because from my point of view, his "sorry" is nothing but - 

Actions speak louder.

[errantknight]

I'd say the fact that the story is generating discussion shows that it's a good one, because these are ideas that could use discussion, particularly when words like 'pandering' get tossed around.

 

A note to those who thought the disageement should have been about something other than his sexuality...if it had been about slavery or blood magic, the inquisitor wouldn't have been able to help and they wanted a 'solve the problem' choice. Also...Dorian isn't sure slavery is entirely bad when compared to alienages and rampant poverty. He also used what southerners would consider blood magic, so that wouldn't fly.

[Rannik]

Hopefully we'll be able to turn people gay using blood magic in the next game.

 

The trolling is now, time to roll a mage.

[Barathos]

Hopefully we'll be able to turn people gay using blood magic in the next game.

 

The trolling is now, time to roll a mage.

Random Male: Greetings, hero!

Hero: Hello, want to bang?

Male: Umm... No. I like the women.

Hero: WELL EAT MY BLOOD MAGIC!! RAAAAGH!

Male: OH NO! -- Oh you're kinda sexy, hero. Let's bang.

 

Hero: *Rubs hands in an evil fashion* Yeeeees!

... For some reason this scenario just wouldn't play out any other way.

[daveliam]

I didn't really like this because to me it felt more like Bioware was trying to make a political statement than telling a good story. It seems like over the past 10 years or so, they've been progressiveish, but not progressive. They've put in gay or bi characters, but in very unobtrusive and borderline hidden in some cases (Sky, Juhani) ways all the while the debate about gay rights has been raging its hottest. They made a concerted point of not having their gay characters development or character arcs have much of anything to do with RL rights issues faced by LGBT people. Now, only after public sentiment has widely started to swing to support of gay rights (in the United States at least what with openly gay people now able to be in the military, the overturn of DOMA, people's stated opinions in polls, various states banning gay conversion therapy, etc.) do they finally make a character where gay *rights* and not just gay people are a theme. Don't get me wrong, I know LGBT people still have to fight an uphill battle for their rights and thus it's still a relevant message, but all in all, this move felt to me like Bioware didn't make a statement until it was mostly politically and economically safe to do so. Thus it felt more like a PR move than a genuine one on their part. Maybe I am just suffering from US political tunnel vision, but this is how it came off to me.

However, I will admit that despite the political hamfistedness of it, DA's writers are good enough that they manage to get some emotional impact out of it anyway. The part where Dorian is asked if blood magic even *could* change him and responds with something like "I don't know, but I wouldn't have liked that Dorian" sounding almost on the part of tears in particular really got me.

It doesn't bother me because, like you said, this is not the trend. There have been 5 bisexual men and 1 gay man in past games and it's never been part of their stories. If it's a trend that continues, then I'll side-eye them. But having this story, which imo is a very powerful story for many people, told once from the perspective of a gay character? Not a problem. And, to be honest, kind of nice. If it feels ham-fisted and awkward, it's because these situations ARE that way for us. It was actually a fairly accurate presentation from my experience.

[AtreiyaN7]

He is fixing it, but somethings can't be fix in a day or conversation. Also, some people, even parents, aren't worth forgiving, but I do think this will be a case where the relationship may improve in the future, but time must be allowed. 

 

I agree with that - the impression I got was that Dorian and his father were taking the first steps to a real reconciliation and that this whole thing wasn't going to be forgiven and resolved in a single day. I believe that Dorian's father actually sounded sincere about it and that he genuinely meant what he said. I also feel that Dorian's reaction isn't only about the attempt to change his sexual orientation against his will, I think that the other major issue for Dorian is the use of blood magic itself.

 

Dorian seems to feel very strongly about blood magic not exactly being a positive thing and that its usage is part of the problem with the corruption, backstabbing, betrayals, and the political machinations within the Magisterium. I think that there's this obvious level of personal betrayal and there is also the betrayal of ideals that he thought he shared with his father in wanting to change the Magisterium and the Tevinter Imperium for the better.

 

And as for apologies from parents...let's just say that my mom could be a raging b---- (it was just her being your average psychologically/verbally abusive parent who didn't know how to keep her temper under control). I kept hearing sorry/sorry/sorry after major blowups from here and major psychological trauma on  my end, and I didn't particularly believe her after a certain number of years because things inevitably played out the same way every single time.

 

Dorian's father...I kind of believed him - which is ironic, given that he's a fictional character. I get the feeling that it will probably work out better for Dorian and his father, then, say, it did for me and my mother (all I'm going to say is that I at least semi-forgave her before she died - which is probably more than some people might have managed under similar circumstances).

[vertigomez]

But I like to think of how awesome it is for a gay man to be the protag of a fantasy story where he has to save the world and no one gives two craps about his sexuality. Overall, that can be what sets Dragon Age a part from other stories in gay media. Dorian's side quest is a minor thing and in this particular story, at least for my gay inquisitor story, it fit. Besides, I never got the impression that homosexuality was fully accepted in the Dragon Age verse. You had Zev who was forced to be gay(bi) and Anders who felt the need to defend his relationship with Karl before you even say anything. Dorian's side quest is understandable.

I've heard people say this before, and it drives me up the wall.

Zevran says that the Crows seek "a certain open-mindedness" in their recruits... which, to me, says that they prefer their assassins to be bisexual, not that they FORCE (somehow..? lolwut) their assassins to be bisexual. A gay man or a straight woman trying to seduce, have sex with, and kill a female target is gonna have to feign that desire in a way that Zev (or Leliana or whoever) wouldn't, which could easily come off as disingenuous if the assassin isn't a skilled actor, setting off alarm bells and generally scaring the target off...

[droitdivin]

I thought it was pretty accurate. Ok, I did not have that situation with non-acceptance, but I still have had plenty of awkwardness. 

 

Oh, how fondly mom and I remember the porn-incidents 

[Barathos]

I thought it was pretty accurate. Ok, I did not have that situation with non-acceptance, but I still have had plenty of awkwardness. 

 

Oh, how fondly mom and I remember the porn-incidents 

 

I had a similar incident as Dorian's, minus the "Pray the gay away" camp. There was much tension in the household for those couple of months...

[droitdivin]

I had a similar incident as Dorian's, minus the "Pray the gay away" camp. There was much tension in the household for those couple of months...

But the awkwardness passed, I hope? 

[Voragoras]

idk.

 

Personally, I feel annoyed and patronised by the ever-present and tiresome cliche of "gay character has conflict with parent over gayness", as if their sexuality is all a gay character's personal struggles can ever amount to. With Dorian's quest, it was obvious that was the intention, not his refusal to have children. In fact, Dorian himself says that it's the fact that he "prefers men" that's the issue, more than anything else. Like other people have said, why not actually make his refusal to bow down to Tevinter society the focus, instead of rehashing the exact same thing every single other gay stereotype in fiction goes through?

 

I much prefer characters like Traynor and Sera and Cortez and Leliana, where their sexualities were just an aspect of themselves, rather than anything that defined them. With Traynor, she was about being a lab scientist on board a naval vessel. With Sera, she was about fighting against the nobility for the common man she grew up alongside. With Cortez, he was struggling with his grief over his lost spouse and the guilt of having to leave him behind. With Leliana, it was about betrayal and redemption.

 

At no point was their sexuality the focus of their character, and at no point were they reduced to who they wanted to sleep with rather than who they were as people. I like that. I didn't feel quite so pitied or caricatured.

 

I also agree with other posters in that I dislike that most bisexual characters in BioWare games obviously prefer the opposite sex, and seem bisexual mostly for convenience, sort of as a tacked-on eleventh hour choice. I support omnisexuality in games because I prefer options for the player over arbitrary representation, but at least craft the story in a way that supports that narrative. A great example someone else here used was that Iron Bull was supposed to be wanting to sleep with everyone, but only ever expressed a desire to sleep with women, except for one random anecdote of him and Dorian. Bit of gameplay and narrative dissonance there.

[Hazegurl]

I've heard people say this before, and it drives me up the wall.

Zevran says that the Crows seek "a certain open-mindedness" in their recruits... which, to me, says that they prefer their assassins to be bisexual, not that they FORCE (somehow..? lolwut) their assassins to be bisexual. A gay man or a straight woman trying to seduce, have sex with, and kill a female target is gonna have to feign that desire in a way that Zev (or Leliana or whoever) wouldn't, which could easily come off as disingenuous if the assassin isn't a skilled actor, setting off alarm bells and generally scaring the target off...

I'm referring to him saying he was forced to have sex with men. Zev made it obvious that he had to "learn" how to "eventually" enjoy being with a man. I call that being forced.

[Zu Long]

Speaking as a straight person, I really liked Dorian's quest. I always enjoy it when my main character gets to see his companions' emotional vulnerability. Indeed, I often wish the main character would have more opportunities to express vulnerability himself. The scenes where Shepard is allowed to break down a little, and get picked up by her friends, were some of the most powerful in the game for me. There wasn't a real moment like that in DAI for me, which is a shame, because I think they could have done a lot with the emotion wheel.

[Shadow Fox]

Ok, I have to respond.

In Thedas Homosexuality, and Bi-Sexuality are not taboo, and are fully excepted norms in their societies. However, Parents even highly aware and good parents can have a bad reaction to finding out your precious child is Gay. Which is the point of the whole side story. His father is accepting of people and is clearly not a bigot, however he took it badly when he realized he wasn't going to have grand kids.

I think trying to brainwash your child is a bit more than just a "bad reaction".

[Vita Brevis]

Speaking as a straight person, I really liked Dorian's quest. I always enjoy it when my main character gets to see his companions' emotional vulnerability. Indeed, I often wish the main character would have more opportunities to express vulnerability himself. The scenes where Shepard is allowed to break down a little, and get picked up by her friends, were some of the most powerful in the game for me. There wasn't a real moment like that in DAI for me, which is a shame, because I think they could have done a lot with the emotion wheel.

I could've swear that the devs said at some point that there would be a chance for a breakdown... But they've said a lot of things. 

Such an opportunity wasted!

[Geth Supremacy]

*Shoves the gay agenda down his throat*

 

Ok guys, we can move on. He's been Re-educated.

 

awwww aren't you just so original and so funny!!! and all those likes too!

 

I got one for you too cuz I wanna play.....

 

*Puts words in other peoples mouth*

 

Ok guys give me 23 likes even though what I said is bs and NOT how things are, but you feel like I am taking up for you even though its baseless.

[Vikarus]

As a gay person, I'm really disappointed we're mentioning our sexualities at all in this thread as if it invalidates our opinions. I disliked this quest. I would have liked it more if the focus was on Dorian disregarding his duties to his family, shaming them with his political views and his refusal to marry, but it wasn't. It was a bible camp story, done to death in media and real life. If it helped some other gay player find the courage to come out, more power to them, but I'm tired of the same old story. I'd rather someone just happen to be gay for once, without it being a part of their personal quests and what have you. I read somewhere Fenris was written originally as a gay romance, maybe I'm wrong, but I loved his romance because we never had to have "the talk."

[Ianamus]

I must admit that while I really liked Dorian as a character his personal quest really didn't do it for me. 

 

The problem is that writing something like that without the use of the word "gay" is incredibly difficult. And it showed. Going in without knowing that Dorian is gay and knowing that Tevinter has no issue with same sex relations as long as you still have children and actually encourage it with slaves makes it really messy.

 

Dorian says that the problem is that he likes having sex with men, but that's not the problem at all. The problem is that he doesn't like women whatsoever and isn't willing to settle for sleeping with male slaves in private due to his morals. But that isn't explored at all. In fact it never seems to actually address the issue that Dorian could have a false relationship with a woman as a public face and keep as many male lovers as he wanted behind the scenes. Obviously it's clear that it isn't what Dorian wants, but the matter is never discussed at all, and Dorians stance isn't taken any further than "I like men". 

 

Another glaring issue is the lack of the word 'gay' in Thedas's vocabulary. It takes a very specific dialogue option to actually make it clear that Dorian only likes men, when that is the entire crux of the issue. 

[BlueElf2]

His quest doesn't contradict anything as far as I could tell when I did it. HIs sexuality wasn't the problem there.

Spoiler

It was that he wouldn't get married regardless of his sexuality and produce heirs like a good Tevinter mage is expected. His parents had not problem with him being gay; they had a problem with him not obeying them and not carrying on his bloodline to produce more powerful mages. Dorian even says as much.