272 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

As a gay person, I'm really disappointed we're mentioning our sexualities at all in this thread as if it invalidates our opinions. I disliked this quest. I would have liked it more if the focus was on Dorian disregarding his duties to his family, shaming them with his political views and his refusal to marry, but it wasn't. It was a bible camp story, done to death in media and real life. If it helped some other gay player find the courage to come out, more power to them, but I'm tired of the same old story. I'd rather someone just happen to be gay for once, without it being a part of their personal quests and what have you. I read somewhere Fenris was written originally as a gay romance, maybe I'm wrong, but I loved his romance because we never had to have "the talk."

 

This just goes to show that there's no way to please everyone.  I was positively bored with Fenris' romance.  I thought it was terribly dull and generic.   But I loved Dorian's.  It's interesting and unique.  I guess what's important in the long run is that there was a romance that you've liked and one that I've liked and, over time, hopefully more and more people will get romances that they enjoy.  We just can't expect to like all of the romances, all of the time.

[Barathos]

But the awkwardness passed, I hope? 

Hardly. Tucking it under a carpet is best, but it's slowly, very very slowly, becoming an ok thing.

 

As a gay person, I'm really disappointed we're mentioning our sexualities at all in this thread as if it invalidates our opinions. I disliked this quest. I would have liked it more if the focus was on Dorian disregarding his duties to his family, shaming them with his political views and his refusal to marry, but it wasn't. It was a bible camp story, done to death in media and real life. If it helped some other gay player find the courage to come out, more power to them, but I'm tired of the same old story. I'd rather someone just happen to be gay for once, without it being a part of their personal quests and what have you. I read somewhere Fenris was written originally as a gay romance, maybe I'm wrong, but I loved his romance because we never had to have "the talk."

 

Make Dorian a straight male, now make him in love with the non-prearrange marriage girl and VOILA same story.

 

Being gay is a part of us, it's what defines some of us. Not saying "BE PROUD TO BE GAY! YA!" but it's a common story plot that is used. Ignoring it can be a terrible plot point as much as magnifying it can be. *Looks at the Bi-Cast of DA:2 with scorn*

[Ianamus]

As a gay person, I'm really disappointed we're mentioning our sexualities at all in this thread as if it invalidates our opinions. I disliked this quest. I would have liked it more if the focus was on Dorian disregarding his duties to his family, shaming them with his political views and his refusal to marry, but it wasn't. It was a bible camp story, done to death in media and real life. If it helped some other gay player find the courage to come out, more power to them, but I'm tired of the same old story. I'd rather someone just happen to be gay for once, without it being a part of their personal quests and what have you. I read somewhere Fenris was written originally as a gay romance, maybe I'm wrong, but I loved his romance because we never had to have "the talk."

 

Fenris's romance is the only m/m Bioware romance I have ever really liked. More so than any of the female ones in the game. In fact, it's one of my favorite Bioware romances ever. I don't think a "talk" is ever needed, but I did wish that DA2's LI's expressed their sexuality more. Dorian's personal quest went too far for me though.

 

I think Sera is the perfect example of how to have a character who expresses their sexuality and makes it clear what they are but without it becoming their sole defining characteristic or giving it too much weight. I'd like to see future homosexual and bisexual companions follow that example. 

 

It pains me to say it, since Dorian was a very well written character otherwise, but I think that David may have been a bit too personally invested when it came to writing his companion quest.

[Vikarus]

Make Dorian a straight male, now make him in love with the non-prearrange marriage girl and VOILA same story.

Being gay is a part of us, it's what defines some of us. Not saying "BE PROUD TO BE GAY! YA!" but it's a common story plot that is used. Ignoring it can be a terrible plot point as much as magnifying it can be. *Looks at the Bi-Cast of DA:2 with scorn*

I disagree. If Dorian's quest had him with a specific love interest his family disapproved of, that would have been different. If it had been unique to romancing him, I would have adored it, but it was just about him being gay. Other posters have said it better, but Tevinter culture was severely underplayed in favor of him liking men.

Also, I've never seen a heterosexual person claim their sexuality defines them. Why can't we ignore it? We didn't see any quests about Blackwall or Cassandra being straight, why one with Dorian being gay?

(Oh man I totally agree with the DA:2 thing though, but Bioware has said they won't do that again, so yay!)

[RicochetHawke]

Saw it many times on TV. Would have prefer something unique and separate from his sexuality. 

 

It's less about his sexuality and more about the family's breeding program. 

[Battlebloodmage]

It's less about his sexuality and more about the family's breeding program.

so the story is about parents wanting grandchild but the son is gay so they try to make him straight?

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I disagree. If Dorian's quest had him with a specific love interest his family disapproved of, that would have been different. If it had been unique to romancing him, I would have adored it, but it was just about him being gay. Other posters have said it better, but Tevinter culture was severely underplayed in favor of him liking men.

Also, I've never seen a heterosexual person claim their sexuality defines them. Why can't we ignore it? We didn't see any quests about Blackwall or Cassandra being straight, why one with Dorian being gay?

(Oh man I totally agree with the DA:2 thing though, but Bioware has said they won't do that again, so yay!)

It's called heteronormativity. Your heterosexuality doesn't define you because everyone already assumes you're heterosexual until you inform them otherwise. You also don't face prejudice and shaming because of your sexuality, either.

[Vikarus]

It's called heteronormativity. Your heterosexuality doesn't define you because everyone already assumes you're heterosexual until you inform them otherwise. You also don't face prejudice and shaming because of your sexuality, either.

I'm gay, and my family would disown me if they knew. Trust me, I understand heteronormativity. I still dislike this quest, and I still don't think our sexualities define us. My family thinks I'm straight, and I don't mind at all because there's more to me than who I want to bang, just like there's more to Dorian, and other characters who happen to be gay.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I'm gay, and my family would disown me if they knew. Trust me, I understand heteronormativity. I still dislike this quest, and I still don't think our sexualities define us. My family thinks I'm straight, and I don't mind at all because there's more to me than who I want to bang, just like there's more to Dorian, and other characters who happen to be gay.

It was a general you, not an accusatory you. And being gay is more about then "you bang." It's also about who you love. And that's not something that's going to be as easy to ignore your parent's opinions about.

[daveliam]

I'm gay, and my family would disown me if they knew. Trust me, I understand heteronormativity. I still dislike this quest, and I still don't think our sexualities define us. My family thinks I'm straight, and I don't mind at all because there's more to me than who I want to bang, just like there's more to Dorian, and other characters who happen to be gay.

 

It's not my place to dig into your personal life, but I will tell with confidence that as you get older, your tolerance for this kind of stuff will decrease.  My sexuality doesn't define me, but it is part of me.  An important part.  I'm married to a man.  My family consists of a gay marriage.  Not just a marriage, because that's not how the world sees us.  I'm proud of my sexuality and refuse to hide it or ignore it.  It's important to me.  It doesn't mean that I go out of my way to highlight it, but it also means that I will be unapologetic about who I am.  If they were going to make a story of my life, it would be "gay" story because that's part of who I am and it's important to my story. 

[Barathos]

I disagree. If Dorian's quest had him with a specific love interest his family disapproved of, that would have been different. If it had been unique to romancing him, I would have adored it, but it was just about him being gay. Other posters have said it better, but Tevinter culture was severely underplayed in favor of him liking men.

Also, I've never seen a heterosexual person claim their sexuality defines them. Why can't we ignore it? We didn't see any quests about Blackwall or Cassandra being straight, why one with Dorian being gay?

(Oh man I totally agree with the DA:2 thing though, but Bioware has said they won't do that again, so yay!)

It's not a definition insomuch as "You are gay. Now you shalt love musicals, fashion, and talk with a lisp" but more along the lines of what we do like. If a guy says he likes a girl, nobody bats an eye, but for SOME reason as soon as a guy says he likes a guy the shizzle hits the fan.

It's an exact comparison to a guy wanting to marry a peasent girl or any variation thereof. Father doesn't approve, wants to change/kick son out of family, and then ends in forgiveness.

[jtav]

I'm a straight female, so I don't know how much value my opinion has.

 

I feel like Dorian's story is the only LGBT story I get to see in mainstream media. So at this point, his personal quest feels like an after school special in fantasy trappings. Surely there are other stories to tell besides this one?

[Hellion Rex]

Ok, might as well add my thoughts to this (instead of doing my HW).

 

I will say that I agree that it is a trope to have this kind of story come into action with gay characters. That said, it sure as hell has not ever been done, in my memory, within the context of a video game. That alone catches my attention. And I'm glad David tackled it, because it's something we have not seen within Thedas until now. And in some respects, Dorian's sexuality has defined his experiences and his life within Tevinter. It has shaped some of the views he holds about the world at large. It added perhaps a layer of depth that I would have maybe found lacking otherwise. Yes, it has been beaten to death, I get it. But I still found the scene incredibly powerful and moving.

 

And holy fudgeballs, Ramon Tikaram absolutely killed those lines. I could even hear David's own experiences and pain within Dorian's voice. Hell, it struck a chord with my own remembered pain.

[ComedicSociopathy]

May I just say that Bioware is one of the only triple AAA developers that will even take about LGBT characters or social issues in their games.You may disagree with their implementation but you have to at least give them credit for acknowledging such a heated topic.

 

I mean, seriously, Fox News is going to have a bloody meltdown when they find out about our sweet Dorian and his even sweeter ass shots. 

[Vikarus]

It's not my place to dig into your personal life, but I will tell with confidence that as you get older, your tolerance for this kind of stuff will decrease. My sexuality doesn't define me, but it is part of me. An important part. I'm married to a man. My family consists of a gay marriage. Not just a marriage, because that's not how the world sees us. I'm proud of my sexuality and refuse to hide it or ignore it. It's important to me. It doesn't mean that I go out of my way to highlight it, but it also means that I will be unapologetic about who I am. If they were going to make a story of my life, it would be "gay" story because that's part of who I am and it's important to my story.

First, congratulations! I'm happy marriage is legal in your state for you! Anyway, I'm actually an adult (I guess family disowning me implied otherwise) and I can honestly my tolerance for this sort of thing will not change. It doesn't bother me because I don't think it's anyone's business but me and my partner. I definitely agree with being unapologetic about it, and I understand needing to be accepted, but I still don't like when gay sexuality is used to define a character because for me, that sets us back.

I hate the idea of "the gay friend" and other things that imply our sexuality is anything special. It's not. We're people. We like other people. I want to see more portrayals of people who happen to be gay, as opposed to more gay people.

That's just my two cents. I know we're not there yet as a society, and I respect what Bioware was trying to do with this quest, but it didn't reach me. If it reached you, good. I'm glad. I'm sure it reached a lot of people, judging by the responses it's getting, and I think that's what Bioware was hoping for one way or the other.

[Hellion Rex]

 

, but Tevinter culture was severely underplayed in favor of him liking men.

How so?

[Hazegurl]

I disagree. If Dorian's quest had him with a specific love interest his family disapproved of, that would have been different. If it had been unique to romancing him, I would have adored it, but it was just about him being gay. Other posters have said it better, but Tevinter culture was severely underplayed in favor of him liking men.

The most interesting part about Dorian's side quest IMO comes up  if you explore the "Company of men" question. It makes the gay Inquisitor sound stupid but it does open the door for the father to mention the Inquisitor. Possibly to relate Dorian's joining the Inquisition to him falling for the Inquisitor or something? I can only speculate that part because Dorian cuts his father off and doesn't give him a chance to say anything. It would have been really interesting for Dorian's father to express that there are two issues for him. One that his son is possibility shacking up with the "Dread Inquisitor" and two that doing so would ruin all hope of them continuing their family bloodline.

[Who Knows]

And yet there are so many straight male characters whose backstory revolves around a woman they loved. No one complains that Bioware is forcing heterosexuality.

But a subplot about homosexuality? Oh god, the horror.

[Hellion Rex]

May I just say that Bioware is one of the only triple AAA developers that will even take about LGBT characters or social issues in their games.You may disagree with their implementation but you have to at least give them credit for acknowledging such a heated topic.

 

I mean, seriously, Fox News is going to have a bloody meltdown when they find out about our sweet Dorian and his even sweeter ass shots. 

I agree with you here. It may not be the "perfect" representation, but it is a damn sight better than anything else I have seen in video games. Bioware has gone above and beyond with representing characters from all walks of life.

 

And didn't you hear? They banned DAI in India over the gay sex.

[Barathos]

Ok, might as well add my thoughts to this (instead of doing my HW).

 

I will say that I agree that it is a trope to have this kind of story come into action with gay characters. That said, it sure as hell has not ever been done, in my memory, within the context of a video game. That alone catches my attention. And I'm glad David tackled it, because it's something we have not seen within Thedas until now. And in some respects, Dorian's sexuality has defined his experiences and his life within Tevinter. It has shaped some of the views he holds about the world at large. It added perhaps a layer of depth that I would have maybe found lacking otherwise. Yes, it has been beaten to death, I get it. But I still found the scene incredibly powerful and moving.

 

And holy fudgeballs, Ramon Tikaram absolutely killed those lines. I could even hear David's own experiences and pain within Dorian's voice. Hell, it struck a chord with my own remembered pain.

 

His voice acting is honestly top notch. Rarely have I been moved by people's acting capabilities. I think the last time might've been the Bioshock series. But just how he delivers the lines, the anger, the love, everything just flows so nicely.

[Moondoggie]

I'm a straight female, so I don't know how much value my opinion has.

 

I feel like Dorian's story is the only LGBT story I get to see in mainstream media. So at this point, his personal quest feels like an after school special in fantasy trappings. Surely there are other stories to tell besides this one?

You see it a lot in mainstream media because well...It happens quite a lot to people. Coming out to your family is one of the most difficult things for gay people because you don't know how your family will react and for some people they really do get shunned or have parents with delusions of "fixing" them. Dorian's personal quest sort of seemed familiar ground in many ways. For me i came out and ran away to University and it took two years before i actually managed to sit down with my parents and talk things over. They could have glossed over it and told a happy story sure but it's something that explains why he is who he is. He's over the top and stubborn because of the lack of acceptance he's had to deal with. He is who he is and if people don't like it tough.

[sandalisthemaker]

 

And holy fudgeballs, Ramon Tikaram absolutely killed those lines. I could even hear David's own experiences and pain within Dorian's voice. Hell, it struck a chord with my own remembered pain.

 

Dat f-bomb. 

 

What I liked was that the Inquisitor not only had the option to be supportive, but also had the option to encourage Dorian to talk it out.

 

"Don't leave it like this. You'll never forgive yourself."  That really hit home for me.

[daveliam]

First, congratulations! I'm happy marriage is legal in your state for you! Anyway, I'm actually an adult (I guess family disowning me implied otherwise) and I can honestly my tolerance for this sort of thing will not change. It doesn't bother me because I don't think it's anyone's business but me and my partner. I definitely agree with being unapologetic about it, and I understand needing to be accepted, but I still don't like when gay sexuality is used to define a character because for me, that sets us back.

I hate the idea of "the gay friend" and other things that imply our sexuality is anything special. It's not. We're people. We like other people. I want to see more portrayals of people who happen to be gay, as opposed to more gay people.

That's just my two cents. I know we're not there yet as a society, and I respect what Bioware was trying to do with this quest, but it didn't reach me. If it reached you, good. I'm glad. I'm sure it reached a lot of people, judging by the responses it's getting, and I think that's what Bioware was hoping for one way or the other.

 

But he isn't defined by that characteristic.  It's part of his character, but not the entire thing.  That's how it should be.  His entire recruitment quest is not about that.  In fact, if you imply that he's had a relationship with Felix, he gets annoyed that you would assume that.  Most of his banter has nothing to do with that.  Hi dialogue in plot-related cut-scenes has nothing to do with that.  There is one questline that deals with that.  That's it.  And it makes perfect sense in the lore given what we know about Tevinter.  He's a fully realized, well-written, and well-acted character. 

 

We've had five gay and lesbian companions ever in Bioware games.  All of them were romance options and only one of them had a questline that was about his family's views on his sexuality.  The other 4 did not.  That's a pretty damned good track record and sounds like it's in line with what you want to see.

 

The problem is that you are asking for a pendulum swing completely in the other direction.  Never having that story being told is not any better than only having that story being told.  Fortunately, that latter isn't happening.  But, it sounds like you want to swing to the former, which I think does a huge disservice to gay players of the game. 

[Hellion Rex]

I'm a straight female, so I don't know how much value my opinion has.

 

Let me tell you right now, your voice and opinion has just as much value as anyone else's on here.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

You see it a lot in mainstream media because well...It happens quite a lot to people. Coming out to your family is one of the most difficult things for gay people because you don't know how your family will react and for some people they really do get shunned or have parents with delusions of "fixing" them. Dorian's personal quest sort of seemed familiar ground in many ways. For me i came out and ran away to University and it took two years before i actually managed to sit down with my parents and talk things over. They could have glossed over it and told a happy story sure but it's something that explains why he is who he is. He's over the top and stubborn because of the lack of acceptance he's had to deal with. He is who he is and if people don't like it tough.

Similar experience here and it's unfortunately much, much more common than it seems most people who don't have to deal with potential rejection realize. I was never threatened with disowning or repairative "therapy" but I did finally have to tell my mother that I couldn't subject myself to her negativity about it anymore and I've only spoken to her a handful of times in several years because of it.