272 réponses à ce sujet

[ComedicSociopathy]

I agree with you here. It may not be the "perfect" representation, but it is damn sight better than anything else I have seen in video game. Bioware has gone above and beyond with representing characters from all walks of life.

 

And didn't you hear? They banned DAI in India over the gay sex.

 

Yes, I knew about that and I was severely disappointed and surprised. India has the option for people to have a third gender on their ID and yet a video game that has some LGBT content gets banned. That just bizarre. 

 

Come on India you had a chance to prove to the world your not some stereotypical backwater country and instead you blow it.

 

What a shame.

[daveliam]

I'm a straight female, so I don't know how much value my opinion has.

 

I feel like Dorian's story is the only LGBT story I get to see in mainstream media. So at this point, his personal quest feels like an after school special in fantasy trappings. Surely there are other stories to tell besides this one?

 

I'll be honest, I think the reason why you probably see this story being told alot is because it's:

 

(a) incredibly common - most LGBT players will instantly recognize this story from first hand experience and it evoke feelings; and I'm sure many non-LGBT players as well;

(b.) emotional - there's a level of drama that comes with it that just fits in with this kind of storytelling;

and

(c.) the lowest hanging fruit - it's an easy story to tell that's efficient at telling a story; is it the most compelling or interesting?  Nope, but it's the quick and dirty one that gets the job done

 

The way that I look at it, it's kind of the equivalent of setting up a young character from a religious family as a rebel.  The easiest way to do it is to tell a story where they act out and do drugs and have sex and what-not as a way to get some freedom.  It's a story we've seen a million times; the "rebellious Catholic school girl" type.  But it will continue to be told because it's effective and relatable.  That's how I view the "my parents don't accept me because of my sexuality" story. 

[Vikarus]

But he isn't defined by that characteristic. It's part of his character, but not the entire thing. That's how it should be. His entire recruitment quest is not about that. In fact, if you imply that he's had a relationship with Felix, he gets annoyed that you would assume that. Most of his banter has nothing to do with that. Hi dialogue in plot-related cut-scenes has nothing to do with that. There is one questline that deals with that. That's it. And it makes perfect sense in the lore given what we know about Tevinter. He's a fully realized, well-written, and well-acted character.

We've had five gay and lesbian companions ever in Bioware games. All of them were romance options and only one of them had a questline that was about his family's views on his sexuality. The other 4 did not. That's a pretty damned good track record and sounds like it's in line with what you want to see.

The problem is that you are asking for a pendulum swing completely in the other direction. Never having that story being told is not any better than only having that story being told. Fortunately, that latter isn't happening. But, it sounds like you want to swing to the former, which I think does a huge disservice to gay players of the game.

See, the thing is, I know it was in line with his culture, but I don't think that was played up enough. I would have liked more talk about how he needed to marry, and that was the issue his father had with him, as opposed to Dorian saying it was about him being gay, since we know that's okay in Tevinter behind closed doors. Then again, that was Dorian's opinion, and we didn't really get to hear his father's.

Also, I know none of the other Bioware characters have a quest like this, but Anders and Zevran both give you the "okay to be gay" talk. And while Bioware may have done this for the first time in a quest, it has been overdone in mainstream media. I personally feel the attention is what does us a disservice, but again, it's just my opinion, I respect why other people feel differently.

For me, I'm so tired of hearing it addressed like it's special. I know Bioware hasn't done it before, and they probably won't do this same quest again, but I've seen that exact story so many times I was tired of it before his quest even started. Again, that's just me. I love Dorian, don't get me wrong, it's his quest I disliked.

(Perhaps to help get where I'm coming from: I also disliked Isabela because her primary character point was her sexuality. I have no idea if she was a popular character, please don't eat me.)

[Chrys]

Similar experience here and it's unfortunately much, much more common than it seems most people who don't have to deal with potential rejection realize. I was never threatened with disowning or repairative "therapy" but I did finally have to tell my mother that I couldn't subject myself to her negativity about it anymore and I've only spoken to her a handful of times in several years because of it.

 

Yes. Many people seem to think it's not a thing anymore unless your parents are very conservative or something but it's still very much a thing and that's why it's such a relatable, powerful story. I thought telling my mom would be a walk in the park given that I wasn't living with her anymore and she even handles adoptions by gay couples in her work. Turns out I was very, very wrong about her reaction. It was one of the worst conversations I ever had and at that time I just wished the floor would open up and take me. Also, my oldest friend thoroughly shocked me when she told me her mom - who was by far the most progressive parent out of all my school friends and who had close gay friends that I always met at her house - reacted badly to her coming out as a lesbian.

 

That doesn't mean it has to be the only story they tell, obviously, but that is the first and only case to date.

[Xilizhra]

Yes. Many people seem to think it's not a thing anymore unless your parents are very conservative or something but it's still very much a thing and that's why it's such a relatable, powerful story. I thought telling my mom would be a walk in the park given that I wasn't living with her anymore and she even handles adoptions by gay couples in her work. Turns out I was very, very wrong about her reaction. It was one of the worst conversations I ever had and at that time I just wished the floor would open up and take me. Also, my oldest friend thoroughly shocked me when she told me her mom - who was by far the most progressive parent out of all my school friends and who had close gay friends that I always met at her house - reacted badly to her coming out as a lesbian.

 

That doesn't mean it has to be the only story they tell, obviously, but that is the first and only case to date.

I must admit, I didn't know that so many parents were blind idiots. My parents, I suppose, were more concerned about other things at the time, so the story doesn't resonate with me like it would other people.

[vertigomez]

I'm referring to him saying he was forced to have sex with men. Zev made it obvious that he had to "learn" how to "eventually" enjoy being with a man. I call that being forced.

Err, forgive me if I'm just remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure he never said that. The only conversation I can imagine you're referring to is the one where he says,

I have had to do many things in my work as an assassin, some pleasant and many not so. The Crows recruit elven assassins because we are considered beautiful by humans... I am sure you can imagine the rest.

Zevran was forced to have sex with men AND women. It's horrible, but I don't see where you're getting that it was ONLY men, and that this somehow "made" him bi..?

[Credit2team]

The only problem I had with this quest was that the awkwardness was tangible.   

its supposed to be awkward though, situations like that in real life usually are

[Bethgael]

The quest wasn't solely about his sexuality. It was also the fact that he'd looked up to his father, and that his father had always proclaimed to be against blood magic. Yet, when it came down to it, he chose to try blood magic (and perhaps turn his son into a vegetable), rather than lose the family dynasty he wanted to create. So it wasn't just a case of an unaccepting parent, it was a parent you felt cared for you and stood for ideals that you do, betraying all of that and not caring if they erased your personality.

This.

 

It wasn't just the sexuality angle, it was that his father could get so desperate he'd change his stated opinion to divert to selfish behaviour to get something he wanted, but that his son wouldn't accept.

Worked in perfectly with the fact that Dorian's other "father figure" did exactly the same thing--his mentor (Alexius) went against everything he had previously stood for in order to "save" his son Felix. Same motivation, same result (betrayal of stated beliefs). The difference is, in Alexius' case, it would doom Thedas--and wouldn't save Felix anyhow.

For Dorian, it was more personal.

In both cases, it was fathers desperately trying not to end their line, and going against their principles to do it--and both sons being betrayed by that.

I'd suggest that if people believe it really was only about a preachy sexuality angle, that they might need to look a bit deeper.

[Eivuwan]

Regardless of whether it is mainly about the gay issue or not, there is nothing wrong with it being told the way it was told. Sure, some of you might see this story many times in mainstream media (I haven't), but we are no where close to eliminating homophobia. Besides, Bioware might be reaching out to a part of the population that isn't reached by the mainstream media. So I believe that Dorian story does more good than harm (if it even does any harm). I'm sorry that some of you are bothered by the quest-line, but if it benefits even one gay person who feels ashamed of his/her sexuality, it's worth it. Also, this is the first time that Bioware addressed the issue directly. I don't see what the problem is.

[_Aine_]

I feel like I played a different game than some people.  My story had Dorian not buying into his families breeding program.  He talks about couples basically force wed to breed the ultimate line of mages, and he didn't want any part of that because it just wasn't who he was.  I also saw a story about parents trying to conform a child into their own ideals to propagate their own high status, and a child wanting to be seen as a person with their own identity, wants, needs and desires.     His being gay was a big part of who he was,sure, but it wasn't the entirety of the issue or who he was.   Dorian was ruining the family legacy, the dynasty.  In well-to-do circles, that would be an embarrassment and an outrage in Tevinter, I gather.   

 

People try to do the exact same thing to in life though, even video games: conform it to what they think "should" be for all the "right" reasons.     Which is maybe more relate-able to the father than to Dorian.     

[Eivuwan]

I feel like I played a different game than some people.  My story had Dorian not buying into his families breeding program.  He talks about couples basically force wed to breed the ultimate line of mages, and he didn't want any part of that because it just wasn't who he was.  I also saw a story about parents trying to conform a child into their own ideals to propagate their own high status, and a child wanting to be seen as a person with their own identity, wants, needs and desires.     His being gay was a big part of who he was,sure, but it wasn't the entirety of the issue or who he was.   Dorian was ruining the family legacy, the dynasty.  In well-to-do circles, that would be an embarrassment and an outrage in Tevinter, I gather.   

 

People try to do the exact same thing to in life though, even video games: conform it to what they think "should" be for all the "right" reasons.     Which is maybe more relate-able to the father than to Dorian.     

 

Exactly, the gay part wasn't even what I paid attention to the most.

[Shadow Fox]

This.

 

It wasn't just the sexuality angle, it was that his father could get so desperate he'd change his stated opinion to divert to selfish behaviour to get something he wanted, but that his son wouldn't accept.

Worked in perfectly with the fact that Dorian's other "father figure" did exactly the same thing--his mentor (Alexius) went against everything he had previously stood for in order to "save" his son Felix. Same motivation, same result (betrayal of stated beliefs). The difference is, in Alexius' case, it would doom Thedas--and wouldn't save Felix anyhow.

For Dorian, it was more personal.

In both cases, it was fathers desperately trying not to end their line, and going against their principles to do it--and both sons being betrayed by that.

I'd suggest that if people believe it really was only about a preachy sexuality angle, that they might need to look a bit deeper.

Actually I believe Alexius only wanted to save his son from dying it had nothing to do with his line ending doesn't excuse what he did but still looks better then Dorian's dad to me.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Actually I believe Alexius only wanted to save his son from dying it had nothing to do with his line ending doesn't excuse what he did but still looks better then Dorian's dad to me.

Halward thought he was saving Dorian as well. You're looking at it too literally. Bethgael meant that both Alexius and Halward were willing to betray every principle they had in order to get what they thought was necessary, irrevocably disappointing their sons in the process.

[Shadow Fox]

Halward thought he was saving Dorian as well. You're looking at it too literally. Bethgael meant that both Alexius and Halward were willing to betray every principle they had in order to get what they thought was necessary, irrevocably disappointing their sons in the process.

Ah.

[celestialfury]

You know what's also cliche? Hero stories with dragons and white knights and bad guys. Doesn't make those things bad. If 10,000 other games can have straight guys showing us how much they love women, but you're complaining about one gay character openly discussing his sexuality which happens almost never, I dunno what to say. 

 

lol exactly. Lots of thinly veiled homophobia in this thread, but shh.

[Hazegurl]

Err, forgive me if I'm just remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure he never said that. The only conversation I can imagine you're referring to is the one where he says,

I have had to do many things in my work as an assassin, some pleasant and many not so. The Crows recruit elven assassins because we are considered beautiful by humans... I am sure you can imagine the rest.

Zevran was forced to have sex with men AND women. It's horrible, but I don't see where you're getting that it was ONLY men, and that this somehow "made" him bi..?

I wish I had the full dialogue. From what I remember, it's during the conversation where he talks of how the Crows trained him. Zev admits to preferring women over men and that to become capable of seducing men he had to sleep with them until he got used to it. I don't think he was forced to have sex with women though.

[Hazegurl]

I feel like I played a different game than some people.  My story had Dorian not buying into his families breeding program.  He talks about couples basically force wed to breed the ultimate line of mages, and he didn't want any part of that because it just wasn't who he was.  I also saw a story about parents trying to conform a child into their own ideals to propagate their own high status, and a child wanting to be seen as a person with their own identity, wants, needs and desires.     His being gay was a big part of who he was,sure, but it wasn't the entirety of the issue or who he was.   Dorian was ruining the family legacy, the dynasty.  In well-to-do circles, that would be an embarrassment and an outrage in Tevinter, I gather.   

 

People try to do the exact same thing to in life though, even video games: conform it to what they think "should" be for all the "right" reasons.     Which is maybe more relate-able to the father than to Dorian.     

Don't forget the part about looking up to his father who told him Blood magic was wrong yet he did what most Mages in Tevinter seem to do when the need is great enough...he turned to blood magic. And used it to violate his son's trust.

[Sjofn]

If you are refering to the scene in the tavern it was heartbreaking. When he says "You tried to change me" I had to let out some tears. For a scene like that to appear in a game? do you know how valueable that is?. Atleast to me it was important. Thanks to Bioware for creating Dorian!

 

When jogging to the inn to do that step, I was a little iffy on what I was going to see, because "parents can't deal with gay kid" does seem a little After School Special to me. But between the writing, visuals and the voice acting (god, the voice acting for that line alone, even), it was still really powerful to see play out, and I'm really glad it was done.

[InstantNoodlez]

Reading through this thread, I am somewhat envious of many commenters here who don't seem to have very controlling parents.

 

While gamers are talking about how Dorian's story reminds them of when they came out to their parents, or how Bioware is pandering to the PC crowd and spread social agenda, all I can see are my parents who have planned pretty much every. single. step. of my siblings and mine lives out for us, for our own good. And then for every single expectation we didn't fulfil, their puzzled and angry faces, lamenting where did they go wrong. Why are their children such failures. All this led to pretty awkward family dinners, and almost nil inter-generational communication. We'd still drop everything to help our parents when they need it, but phoning home to say hi is just nope.

 

I'd say Dorian is an extremely forgiving sort, after blood magic and arranged marriage and threat of lobotomy, to still actually go meet his dad.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Dorian's sidequest resonated with me rather well.

 

Its not because of the gay part though, its the arranged relationship part and the shitestorm that resulted from that...

 

Most of you here are Westerners who do not deal with that crap anymore...

 

I am an Indian from Southeast Asia and we deal with this arranged marriage, arranged relationship nonsense even until today...My parents now know me enough that they won't dare pull that on me but there are plenty of people here who get into arranged nonsense...Because of family honor and bloodline and caste...Whatever those things mean...

[InstantNoodlez]

Dorian's sidequest resonated with me rather well.

 

Its not because of the gay part though, its the arranged relationship part and the shitestorm that resulted from that...

 

Most of you here are Westerners who do not deal with that crap anymore...

 

I am an Indian from Southeast Asia and we deal with this arranged marriage, arranged relationship nonsense even until today...My parents now know me enough that they won't dare pull that on me but there are plenty of people here who get into arranged nonsense...Because of family honor and bloodline and caste...Whatever those things mean...

Precisely. 

[nightscrawl]

The part where Dorian is asked if blood magic even *could* change him and responds with something like "I don't know, but I wouldn't have liked that Dorian" sounding almost on the part of tears in particular really got me.

I typically choose all of the investigate options but didn't pick that one because I was afraid of how he might react. Going to pick it this time around, thanks!

[Shadow Fox]

Reading through this thread, I am somewhat envious of many commenters here who don't seem to have very controlling parents.

 

While gamers are talking about how Dorian's story reminds them of when they came out to their parents, or how Bioware is pandering to the PC crowd and spread social agenda, all I can see are my parents who have planned pretty much every. single. step. of my siblings and mine lives out for us, for our own good. And then for every single expectation we didn't fulfil, their puzzled and angry faces, lamenting where did they go wrong. Why are their children such failures. All this led to pretty awkward family dinners, and almost nil inter-generational communication. We'd still drop everything to help our parents when they need it, but phoning home to say hi is just nope.

 

I'd say Dorian is an extremely forgiving sort, after blood magic and arranged marriage and threat of lobotomy, to still actually go meet his dad.

 

 

Dorian's sidequest resonated with me rather well.

 

Its not because of the gay part though, its the arranged relationship part and the shitestorm that resulted from that...

 

Most of you here are Westerners who do not deal with that crap anymore...

 

I am an Indian from Southeast Asia and we deal with this arranged marriage, arranged relationship nonsense even until today...My parents now know me enough that they won't dare pull that on me but there are plenty of people here who get into arranged nonsense...Because of family honor and bloodline and caste...Whatever those things mean...

*hugs through internet*

[Bethgael]

Halward thought he was saving Dorian as well. You're looking at it too literally. Bethgael meant that both Alexius and Halward were willing to betray every principle they had in order to get what they thought was necessary, irrevocably disappointing their sons in the process.

Yes, exactly. And the (possibly) different outcome between the 2 (if you make certain choices) that show that Dorian's father was prepared to admit he was wrong, while Alexius continued to push for his desired result no matter what Felix said--and the catharsis involved in both tales for Dorian after Felix's death eventually happens offstage.

I felt the parallels were beautiful storytelling, ultimately.

[Deanna]

I just did this quest for the first time and I'm on my 3rd play thru. At first I had no idea what the issue was and wanted to try to reconcile them, even when Dorian told her the problem. But once I learned what his father tried to do I was like "aw hell no, that is so effed up on so many levels, Dorian forget him, lets go." I admit it was strange to have the sexuality issue come up considering there's always been same sex relationships all through out DA but I thought it was a good look at who Dorian is and all.