272 réponses à ce sujet

[Voragoras]

And yet there are so many straight male characters whose backstory revolves around a woman they loved. No one complains that Bioware is forcing heterosexuality.

But a subplot about homosexuality? Oh god, the horror.

 

The woman they loved is an individual. Cortez's backstory is about the husband he loved, and I thought that was a very poignant and emotional addition to the story. It really personalised the fact that everyone is out to lose something, and my FemShep helping him through the difficulty posed by his grief was a touching moment, imo, especially when he put up the memorial.

 

But Dorian's is based on a general "I am gay therefore that is why I am having problems". It's not about his personality, or his history, or his actions. It's about who he's born as. The quest completely focuses on his gayness and his father trying to make him straight, instead of focusing on Dorian's refusal to bow down to Tevinter norms. Which would be more interesting, and less of a tiresome repetition of something I've seen hundreds of times before.

[Barathos]

The woman they loved is an individual. Cortez's backstory is about the husband he loved, and I thought that was a very poignant and emotional addition to the story. It really personalised the fact that everyone is out to lose something, and my FemShep helping him through the difficulty posed by his grief was a touching moment, imo, especially when he put up the memorial.

 

But Dorian's is based on a general "I am gay therefore that is why I am having problems". It's not about his personality, or his history, or his actions. It's about who he's born as. The quest completely focuses on his gayness and his father trying to make him staight, instead of focusing on Dorian's refusal to bow down to Tevinter norms. Which would be more interesting, and less of a tiresome repetition of something I've seen hundreds of times before.

 

But you do realize that parents chastizing / disowning their children because of their orientation is a thing, right? It's not some made-up social justice example of worst case scenario that's really rare, it actually happens far more regularly and it creates a lot of drama. And what makes good stories? Drama, emotion, passion, love, hate, hardcore emotions that coming-out sometimes brings.

 

Stories are based off real situations, and what Dorian went through is, in fact, very very real to some people.

[Voragoras]

But you do realize that parents chastizing / disowning their children because of their orientation is a thing, right? It's not some made-up social justice example of worst case scenario that's really rare, it actually happens far more regularly and it creates a lot of drama. And what makes good stories? Drama, emotion, passion, love, hate, hardcore emotions that coming-out sometimes brings.

 

Stories are based off real situations, and what Dorian went through is, in fact, very very real to some people.

 

I know it's a thing, and it's especially a thing in fiction. I'm just saying that I feel annoyed and patronised by it, because it's often all that a gay character amounts to, and I don't like that they are often soapboxes instead of potential characters in their own right. I'm sick of the cliche because it perpetuates the idea that the biggest problem a gay character can have is their sexuality, and that's where their problems begin and end. It's all that defines them.

 

Like I said, I know it's a thing, but that doesn't mean I can't hate it as a literary device. You feel represented, and that's fine. I don't, and I feel insulted that a gay character's personal struggles can often never be anything more than a preachy Bible Camp archetype.

[Draining Dragon]

 
I mean, seriously, Fox News is going to have a bloody meltdown when they find out about our sweet Dorian and his even sweeter ass shots.

That poor dead horse.

[jtav]

As long as we're throwing out alternatives...

 

What if the person Dorian met was a slave he grew up with. Someone he considered a friend and lover? A person he could be himself with. Only to be informed that the slave, while he loved Dorian, did not and does not like being a slave. Give Dorian something to chew on about the interconnected nature of oppression.

[Voragoras]

As long as we're throwing out alternatives...

 

What if the person Dorian met was a slave he grew up with. Someone he considered a friend and lover? A person he could be himself with. Only to be informed that the slave, while he loved Dorian, did not and does not like being a slave. Give Dorian something to chew on about the interconnected nature of oppression.

 

I like this. Give his quest something that actually develops him further than "I'm gay", and instead makes it about how he fell in love, but the restrictions of Tevinter could never allow him to fulfill that love, and his father used blood magic to try and make Dorian not love whomever he did anymore, or to make Dorian want to sleep with a specific woman from a high standing. There, the focus is on Tevinter and his personal conflict with its society, rather than the typical "Bible Camp" I keep referring to. He's automatically more than who he coincidentally would prefer to sleep with.

[Barathos]

I know it's a thing, and it's especially a thing in fiction. I'm just saying that I feel annoyed and patronised by it, because it's often all that a gay character amounts to, and I don't like that they're are often soapboxes instead of potential characters in their own right. I'm sick of the cliche because it perpetuates the idea that the biggest problem a gay character can have is their sexuality, and that's where their problems begin and end. It's all that defines them.

 

Like I said, I know it's a thing, but that doesn't mean I can't hate it as a literary device. You feel represented, and that's fine. I don't, and I feel insulted that a gay character's personal struggles can often never be anything more than a preachy Bible Camp archetype.

It's still only one factor that he won't even bring up again. His sole purpose is to change Tevinter, not to accept gay relationships (oh that would be a terrible ending) but to end the corruption, etc. etc.

[Voragoras]

It's still only one factor that he won't even bring up again. His sole purpose is to change Tevinter, not to accept gay relationships (oh that would be a terrible ending) but to end the corruption, etc. etc.

 

I'm not saying he's a badly written character, I'm saying his companion quest was badly written. Everybody else's was about a genuine personal struggle they had, either between morals and pragmatism or finding something out that shook their entire worldview. Dorian's wasn't. It was a really hamfisted attempt at an IRL political commentary.

[InstantNoodlez]

*hugs through internet*

 

aww thanks.

*receives hug*

[Jester]

I'm not saying he's a badly written character, I'm saying his companion quest was badly written. Everybody else's was about a genuine personal struggle they had, either between morals and pragmatism or finding something out that shook their entire worldview. Dorian's wasn't. It was a really hamfisted attempt at an IRL political commentary.

I didn't see it like that, despite the fact that I'm pretty sensitive about putting gay agenda in media.

 

Everything else Dorian says, is about him disagreeing with most of what Tevinter stood for in the past, and stands for now. I think it was bast shown in the conversation taking place after his personal quest - when my Inquisitor told him he was brave - because he stood against tradition to find his own path (funnily enough, despite the fact that my Inquisitor is a pretty manipulative guy, this compliment was sincere - in his own way he chose his own path by severing his Dalish ties and dedicating life to make the Inquisition the leading power in Thedas, with himself on top of it - so he could actually respect what Dorian did). 

I think the conflict with his father was not based on his sexuality - rather was catalysed by it. Dorian is against the whole idea standing behind the problem.

[Voragoras]

I didn't see it like that, despite the fact that I'm pretty sensitive about putting gay agenda in media.

 

Everything else Dorian says, is about him disagreeing with most of what Tevinter stood for in the past, and stands for now. I think it was bast shown in the conversation taking place after his personal quest - when my Inquisitor told him he was brave - because he stood against tradition to find his own path (funnily enough, despite the fact that my Inquisitor is a pretty manipulative guy, this compliment was sincere - in his own way he chose his own path by severing his Dalish ties and dedicating life to make the Inquisition the leading power in Thedas, with himself on top of it - so he could actually respect what Dorian did). 

I think the conflict with his father was not based on his sexuality - rather was catalysed by it. Dorian is against the whole idea standing behind the problem.

 

I know that, but that isn't how the companion quest put it forward. They focused entirely on his homosexuality instead of his response to it, and it was his homosexuality that his father tried to change, not his behaviour. This is despite the fact that Tevinter has no problems at all with homosexuality, as long as you have a child, and yet it was homosexuality that sparked the problem. No discussion of anything else other than homosexuality.

 

If it had been written the way you said, I wouldn't have had a problem with it, because it reflects Dorian's choice to be a pariah rather than submit to the traditional norm, but it was all about his sexuality, even to the point of flying in the face of actual in-game lore.

[Shadow Fox]

I'm not saying he's a badly written character, I'm saying his companion quest was badly written. Everybody else's was about a genuine personal struggle they had, either between morals and pragmatism or finding something out that shook their entire worldview. Dorian's wasn't. It was a really hamfisted attempt at an IRL political commentary.

Except Dorian's was a genuine personal struggle that both he and many gay men and women have had to deal with.

 

 

Sometimes "cliches" are true.

[Voragoras]

Except Dorian's was a genuine personal struggle that both he and many gay men and women have had to deal with.

 

 

Sometimes "cliches" are true.

 

As I've said before, I know it happens in real life. That doesn't mean I can't hate it in fiction, either because of how tiresome the cliche is or because of how patronised I feel by it. In this case, it's both of the above, and the fact that it directly contradicts what has already been said about the universe.

 

It's good that the gay people this happens to get represented, but nearly every single gay character in all of fiction gets treated this way. I'd like for once to have a gay character that isn't made into their sexuality, and to have a gay character where their gayness doesn't define their major characterisation. I celebrated Sera, Traynor, Cortez, and Leliana for this. Dorian is a step backward, considering they dismissed everything about Tevinter lore and twisted the rest of his personality just to fit in this one political point that countless people have already made.

 

I'd also appreciate it if people would stop assuming I don't know what it's like to face rejection because of my sexuality because I think this one particular companion quest was badly implemented. I can be gay without having to like a 10 minute sidequest, thanks.

[Vikarus]

As I've said before, I know it happens in real life. That doesn't mean I can't hate it in fiction, either because of how tiresome the cliche is or because of how patronised I feel by it. In this case, it's both of the above, and the fact that it directly contradicts what has already been said about the universe.

 

It's good that the gay people this happens to get represented, but nearly every single gay character in all of fiction gets treated this way. I'd like for once to have a gay character that isn't made into their sexuality, and to have a gay character where their gayness doesn't define their major characterisation. I celebrated Sera, Traynor, Cortez, and Leliana for this. Dorian is a step backward, considering they dismissed everything about Tevinter lore and twisted the rest of his personality just to fit in this one political point that countless people have already made.

 

I'd also appreciate it if people would stop assuming I don't know what it's like to face rejection because of my sexuality because I think this one particular companion quest was badly implemented. I can be gay without having to like a 10 minute sidequest, thanks.

*Quietly goes through entire thread and likes everything you've posted because I can't say it better*

[Cainhurst Crow]

I will admit, I rolled my eyes at first when I heard the "I like the company of men" line, because I remembered reading about how sexuality was viewed in thedas and I thought this was going to be just a soapbox for some good ol' fashion social condemnation.

 

Then I got to the heart of the problem, that dorians father was going to use blood magic on him and that it was that, the betrayal that his father would consider resorting to that when he'd pounded it in his head at a young age that blood magic was not the way to go, that made me go "Oh...this is where they went."

 

I pressured for the two to at least settle their differences, not favoring one or the other in the convo, and IMO it lead to the best result. I have to say, even if the plots structure itself has been used before, that it did serve as a very effective way to frame the confrontation.

 

Hell, personally I'm just glad this wasn't a fenris 2.0 situation where his dad comes in like Danarius going "Oh you have my property, I'll be taking him now" BS and it all resolves with a tavern fight and a dead magister, and then the inevitable spew of "All the ebal tevintar cept dorian". Instead, its a normal conflict between a father and son, with some extraordinary circumstances thrown in the mix, which is a hell of a lot better.

[daveliam]

As I've said before, I know it happens in real life. That doesn't mean I can't hate it in fiction, either because of how tiresome the cliche is or because of how patronised I feel by it. In this case, it's both of the above, and the fact that it directly contradicts what has already been said about the universe.

 

It's good that the gay people this happens to get represented, but nearly every single gay character in all of fiction gets treated this way. I'd like for once to have a gay character that isn't made into their sexuality, and to have a gay character where their gayness doesn't define their major characterisation. I celebrated Sera, Traynor, Cortez, and Leliana for this. Dorian is a step backward, considering they dismissed everything about Tevinter lore and twisted the rest of his personality just to fit in this one political point that countless people have already made.

 

I'd also appreciate it if people would stop assuming I don't know what it's like to face rejection because of my sexuality because I think this one particular companion quest was badly implemented. I can be gay without having to like a 10 minute sidequest, thanks.

 

But you have this.  You mention it yourself.  You've had it with Sera.  You've had it with Traynor.  You've had it with Cortez.  You've had it with Juhani.  In fact, you've had it 80% of the time with gay characters.  Dorian is the only one in a Bioware game that has this story. 

 

I totally agree with you that I'd hate to see this be the go-to 'gay character arc', but the evidence is overwhelmingly against this being the likelihood.  I don't see what the big deal is that they chose to explore this one, played out, overrepresented story through their own lens in their own setting.

 

And it's completely disingenuous to say that Dorian's entire personality is around being gay.  If you played through this game and you can make that statement seriously ("the rest of his personality" is related to this one plot point), then you didn't pay attention to the game.

[Eivuwan]

As I've said before, I know it happens in real life. That doesn't mean I can't hate it in fiction, either because of how tiresome the cliche is or because of how patronised I feel by it. In this case, it's both of the above, and the fact that it directly contradicts what has already been said about the universe.

 

It's good that the gay people this happens to get represented, but nearly every single gay character in all of fiction gets treated this way. I'd like for once to have a gay character that isn't made into their sexuality, and to have a gay character where their gayness doesn't define their major characterisation. I celebrated Sera, Traynor, Cortez, and Leliana for this. Dorian is a step backward, considering they dismissed everything about Tevinter lore and twisted the rest of his personality just to fit in this one political point that countless people have already made.

 

I'd also appreciate it if people would stop assuming I don't know what it's like to face rejection because of my sexuality because I think this one particular companion quest was badly implemented. I can be gay without having to like a 10 minute sidequest, thanks.

 

Ok, but Bioware has already addressed homosexuality the way you like it with other characters. What's so bad about one character who experiences his homosexuality in a different manner. It's good to have diversity.

[Barathos]

As I've said before, I know it happens in real life. That doesn't mean I can't hate it in fiction, either because of how tiresome the cliche is or because of how patronised I feel by it. In this case, it's both of the above, and the fact that it directly contradicts what has already been said about the universe.

 

It's good that the gay people this happens to get represented, but nearly every single gay character in all of fiction gets treated this way. I'd like for once to have a gay character that isn't made into their sexuality, and to have a gay character where their gayness doesn't define their major characterisation. I celebrated Sera, Traynor, Cortez, and Leliana for this. Dorian is a step backward, considering they dismissed everything about Tevinter lore and twisted the rest of his personality just to fit in this one political point that countless people have already made.

 

I'd also appreciate it if people would stop assuming I don't know what it's like to face rejection because of my sexuality because I think this one particular companion quest was badly implemented. I can be gay without having to like a 10 minute sidequest, thanks.

 

See, in my experience, I havn't met a gay man who hasn't been a stereotype. Loves theater/musicals, fashion, talks with the girls with absolutely not problem, etc. etc. It's a common thing in my world and seeing a character that just doesn't mention it, to me, is odd. (Note, I live in the South US area)

And this is, actually, Bioware's first time they actually tell the gay story in a dramatic fashion. Zevran and Anders hit on you (anders does funny after you decline him, but his character was just poorly written, imo.), Cortez just mentions he had a husband who dies, etc. Yeah, the gay thing pops up a lot in TV shows and the cliche is everywhere, but this is Bioware's first time doing it.

As for twisting the lore: It actually makes sense in the lore. Tevinter is very, very magic based and creating a powerful mage through bloodlines, to me, makes complete sense. I don't believe there was any warping of lore for one character. New lore has always been introduced with characters because those characters see the world and experience it differently.

[Voragoras]

But you have this.  You mention it yourself.  You've had it with Sera.  You've had it with Traynor.  You've had it with Cortez.  You've had it with Juhani.  In fact, you've had it 80% of the time with gay characters.  Dorian is the only one in a DA game that has this story. 

 

I totally agree with you that I'd hate to see this be the go-to 'gay character arc', but the evidence is overwhelmingly against this being the likelihood.  I don't see what the big deal is that they chose to explore this one, played out, overrepresented story through their own lens in their own setting.

 

And it's completely disingenuous to say that Dorian's entire personality is around being gay.  If you played through this game and you can make that statement seriously ("the rest of his personality" is related to this one plot point), then you didn't pay attention to the game.

 

I didn't say his entire personality is based around being gay, I said his companion quest reduced his personal struggles to something stemming purely from his sexuality. I've said before that I don't think he's badly written, but his companion quest certainly is. Just by shifting the focus from his sexuality onto one specific male that he happened to fall in love with and therefore refused the norms of keeping his lover hidden, you've changed Dorian's quest from an awkward real-life Band Camp cliche into a personalised issue relating to Dorian's opposition to Tevinter society.

 

But they didn't do that. They said, "he's gay, therefore it's the problem". When, actually, according to in-game lore, it shouldn't be.

 

Ok, but Bioware has already addressed homosexuality the way you like it with other characters. What's so bad about one character who experiences his homosexuality in a different manner. It's good to have diversity.

 

Yes, it is, but only when it makes sense. Like I've already said - numerous times, in fact - my issue is that they're shoving this in where it doesn't fit. The entirety of Tevinter society is perfectly okay with homosexuality, as long as you have a child, but Dorian's quest completely ignores this in favour of focusing entirely on his sexuality as the problem instead of his reaction to it. Dorian's sexuality is the thing that his father tried to change, and it's Dorian's sexuality that his father had a problem with, and it's Dorian's sexuality that's causing the conflict.

 

You can read between the lines and see that it's probably his refusal to play along that caused the rift, but that's not what his father responded to, and more importantly, that's not what the quest chose to focus on. Instead, they dismissed three games and several novels worth of established lore in favour of giving a short sermon on tolerance that society has heard already from a thousand other voices.

[Vikarus]

I didn't say his entire personality is based around being gay, I said his companion quest reduced his personal struggles to as stemming purely from his sexuality. I've said before that I don't think he's badly written, but his companion quest certainly is. Just by shifting the focus from his sexuality onto one specific male that he happened to fall in love with and therefore refused the norms of keeping his lover hidden, you've changed Dorian's quest from an awkward real-life Band Camp cliche into a personalised issue relating to Dorian's opposition to Tevinter society.

 

But they didn't do that. They said, "he's gay, therefore it's the problem". When, actually, according to in-game lore, it shouldn't be.

 

 

Yes, it is, but only when it makes sense. Like I've already said - numerous times, in fact - my issue is that they're shoving this in where it doesn't fit. The entirety of Tevinter society is perfectly okay with homosexuality, as long as you have a child, but Dorian's quest completely ignores this in favour of focusing entirely on his sexuality as the problem instead of his reaction to it. Dorian's sexuality is the thing that his father tried to change, and it's Dorian's sexuality that his father had a problem with, and it's Dorian's sexuality that's causing the conflict.

 

You can read between the lines and see that it's probably his refusal to play along that caused the rift, but that's not what his father responded to, and more important, that's not what the quest chose to focus on. Instead, they dismissed three games and several novels worth of established lore in favour of giving a short sermon on tolerance that society has heard already from a thousand other voices.

I love you. I mean. Uh.

I couldn't agree more with this. This quest is poorly written, plain and simple. If it was about anything other than homosexuality, I bet almost everyone would agree, but it's about a controversial subject so everyone feels honor-bound to defend it. There's absolutely no focus on Tevinter culture in this quest. Dorian spends a good several minutes literally shouting that his father's problem with him is that he has sex with men, but that's not what the codex teaches us. If he had just said, "I refused to marry a woman," instead, it would have been handled better. Sure, the lines are in there, once, briefly, before they're brushed under a rug in favor of making a statement that doesn't make sense in this context.

[Draining Dragon]

I love you. I mean. Uh.
I couldn't agree more with this. This quest is poorly written, plain and simple. If it was about anything other than homosexuality, I bet almost everyone would agree, but it's about a controversial subject so everyone feels honor-bound to defend it. There's absolutely no focus on Tevinter culture in this quest. Dorian spends a good several minutes literally shouting that his father's problem with him is that he has sex with men, but that's not what the codex teaches us. If he had just said, "I refused to marry a woman," instead, it would have been handled better. Sure, the lines are in there, once, briefly, before they're brushed under a rug in favor of making a statement that doesn't make sense in this context.

This. So much this.

[Barathos]

I love you. I mean. Uh.

I couldn't agree more with this. This quest is poorly written, plain and simple. If it was about anything other than homosexuality, I bet almost everyone would agree, but it's about a controversial subject so everyone feels honor-bound to defend it. There's absolutely no focus on Tevinter culture in this quest. Dorian spends a good several minutes literally shouting that his father's problem with him is that he has sex with men, but that's not what the codex teaches us. If he had just said, "I refused to marry a woman," instead, it would have been handled better. Sure, the lines are in there, once, briefly, before they're brushed under a rug in favor of making a statement that doesn't make sense in this context.

Or I could just like the quest and how it was presented. The voice acting was incredible here, the setup was well done "Oh shoot, it's the dad not a representative..."

And the whole "I don't want to marry a woman" line wouldn't work, because he was going to be mind controlled into marry the woman. So there's that.

[Voragoras]

I love you. I mean. Uh.

I couldn't agree more with this. This quest is poorly written, plain and simple. If it was about anything other than homosexuality, I bet almost everyone would agree, but it's about a controversial subject so everyone feels honor-bound to defend it. There's absolutely no focus on Tevinter culture in this quest. Dorian spends a good several minutes literally shouting that his father's problem with him is that he has sex with men, but that's not what the codex teaches us. If he had just said, "I refused to marry a woman," instead, it would have been handled better. Sure, the lines are in there, once, briefly, before they're brushed under a rug in favor of making a statement that doesn't make sense in this context.

 

(oh man oh man brush it off no problem be suave) I love you too. (damnit)

 

I think people relate to the message behind it so much that the actual writing is somewhat irrelevant. His story is one that many people will connect to, but it's just not one that was told well.

[daveliam]

I think people are just blowing it up out of proportion.  Adding in a past lover of his just puts him right into "Steve" (and Carth and Sky and Jaheira) territory.  Where is this past lover of his?  Why isn't he around?  Is he dead?  Is it Carth Syndrome again?  Did they just break up?  Well, how is that any more compelling than "I didn't want my father to try to 'correct' me through blood magic"?  It's strongly implied that the issue is because Dorian wouldn't play the 'marry a lady, have a kid, have sex with male slaves" game.  And then his father tried to use blood magic to change him.  None of that is outside of the existing Tevinter lore.

 

Is it the most well-written companion story?  Nope.  Is it a bit of a tired, played out scenario?  Yep.  But it's not a big deal.  It's certainly not my favorite quest in the game, but I also don't think that it's so awful that it's patronizing either.  Everything you want is right there in the story.  Some of it isn't spelled out in black-and-white for you, but that's good.  Seriously, who wants that to be a requirement?  To have everything spelled out and spoon fed directly to the player. 

 

I can understand why people don't like it.  I can understand why people do like it.  I can't understand why people try to make it out to be this patronizing, ham-fisted, agent of "the agenda".  It's not.  It's a perfectly fine, if not terribly creative, companion arc that hasn't been explored in this setting before. 

[d4eaming]

That quest was about his refusal to be breed stock for his father, not about him being gay. Good gods, did we play the same game?