272 réponses à ce sujet

[Voragoras]

I think people are just blowing it up out of proportion.  Adding in a past lover of his just puts him right into "Steve" (and Carth and Sky and Jaheira) territory.  Where is this past lover of his?  Why isn't he around?  Is he dead?  Is it Carth Syndrome again?  Did they just break up?  Well, how is that any more compelling than "I didn't want my father to try to 'correct' me through blood magic"?

 

It's not the blood magic or the message that's the problem, it's the fact that the quest focuses on a message that ignores the entire lore of all Dragon Age novels and games. The quest says Dorian's sexuality is an issue. Everything else says it shouldn't be. The lovers in Cortez's, Carth's, Sky's, and Jaheira's quests were all irrelevant, because they were used to say something about their personality, or to exemplify an aspect of the main plot to make an emotional point. Dorian's doesn't do either of these things.

 

It literally is just an awkward life lesson, made worse by the fact that it completely disregards everything else that's been said about Dragon Age culture and sexuality. That's why I don't  like it.

 

I think all of this repetition could be avoided if you'd just read what people are saying.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I didn't say his entire personality is based around being gay, I said his companion quest reduced his personal struggles to something stemming purely from his sexuality. I've said before that I don't think he's badly written, but his companion quest certainly is. Just by shifting the focus from his sexuality onto one specific male that he happened to fall in love with and therefore refused the norms of keeping his lover hidden, you've changed Dorian's quest from an awkward real-life Band Camp cliche into a personalised issue relating to Dorian's opposition to Tevinter society.

 

But they didn't do that. They said, "he's gay, therefore it's the problem". When, actually, according to in-game lore, it shouldn't be.

 

 

Yes, it is, but only when it makes sense. Like I've already said - numerous times, in fact - my issue is that they're shoving this in where it doesn't fit. The entirety of Tevinter society is perfectly okay with homosexuality, as long as you have a child, but Dorian's quest completely ignores this in favour of focusing entirely on his sexuality as the problem instead of his reaction to it. Dorian's sexuality is the thing that his father tried to change, and it's Dorian's sexuality that his father had a problem with, and it's Dorian's sexuality that's causing the conflict.

 

You can read between the lines and see that it's probably his refusal to play along that caused the rift, but that's not what his father responded to, and more importantly, that's not what the quest chose to focus on. Instead, they dismissed three games and several novels worth of established lore in favour of giving a short sermon on tolerance that society has heard already from a thousand other voices.

Did you even listen to what was said in the scene, or did you write it off and ignore it because you think it's supposedly badly written? Dorian states multiple times that the problem was that he refused to get married and play pretend for the sake of appearances, which is exactly what you're trying to suggest that they should have done. The problem wasn't that he was gay, it was that he refused to pretend otherwise which is what is accepted in Tevinter.

[errantknight]

I get what people are saying, but I still think think that our culture has enough lack of empathy that it wasn't a bad thing to include, especially given the virulent homophobia that players have posted in forums in past games. I think it functioned on more than one level. It developed Dorian's character AND left no doubt about where Bioware stood as a company. Yes, it was a tad heavy handed, and some of us have already heard it or know it all too well and want to focus elsewhere, but we may not have been who that was intended to affect. There are a number of player dialogues that I think are a result of Bioware being accused of sitting on the fence and wanting to rectify that.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I think people are just blowing it up out of proportion.  Adding in a past lover of his just puts him right into "Steve" (and Carth and Sky and Jaheira) territory.  Where is this past lover of his?  Why isn't he around?  Is he dead?  Is it Carth Syndrome again?  Did they just break up?  Well, how is that any more compelling than "I didn't want my father to try to 'correct' me through blood magic"?  It's strongly implied that the issue is because Dorian wouldn't play the 'marry a lady, have a kid, have sex with male slaves" game.  And then his father tried to use blood magic to change him.  None of that is outside of the existing Tevinter lore.

 

Is it the most well-written companion story?  Nope.  Is it a bit of a tired, played out scenario?  Yep.  But it's not a big deal.  It's certainly not my favorite quest in the game, but I also don't think that it's so awful that it's patronizing either.  Everything you want is right there in the story.  Some of it isn't spelled out in black-and-white for you, but that's good.  Seriously, who wants that to be a requirement?  To have everything spelled out and spoon fed directly to the player. 

 

I can understand why people don't like it.  I can understand why people do like it.  I can't understand why people try to make it out to be this patronizing, ham-fisted, agent of "the agenda".  It's not.  It's a perfectly fine, if not terribly creative, companion arc that hasn't been explored in this setting before. 

The Carth/Thane/Sky/Steve trope of my dead/lost husband/wife/lover is far more of a cliche than what Dorian brought to the table. The fact that people keep suggesting it pretty much invalidates a lot of the supposed literary criticism being thrown around in here. And there is nothing less endearing from a character than hearing them mope about someone you never met for 80% of their scenes.

[Voragoras]

That quest was about his refusal to be breed stock for his father, not about him being gay. Good gods, did we play the same game?

 

Okay, let's look at the video of the quest itself, shall we?

 

"I prefer the company of men. My father disapproves. Every Tevinter family is intermarrying to distill the perfect mage, perfect body, perfect mind. The perfect leader." (This, on its own, would be fine. However, it's immediately followed up by this:) "It means every perceived flaw - every aberration - is deviant and shameful. It must be hidden."

"But what was the first thing you did when your precious heir refused to play pretend for the rest of his life? You tried to change me."

 

Seems pretty clear. Father is trying to make their son straight, only using blood magic instead of bible camp. There's one or two lines thrown in about his legacy, but it's nearly always in reference to his sexuality. And his father doesn't try to change his personality, he tries to change his sexuality. Dorian not wanting to play along doesn't spark the blood magic, but his sexuality does. His choices are fine, but his sexuality is an aberration.

 

Like I said, it's clear if you read between the lines, but the focus of this scene is clearly that Dorian's sexuality is the problem. Not anything else.

[daveliam]

It's not the blood magic or the message that's the problem, it's the fact that the quest focuses on a message that ignores the entire lore of all Dragon Age novels and games. The quest says Dorian's sexuality is an issue. Everything else says it shouldn't be. The lovers in Cortez's, Carth's, Sky's, and Jaheira's quests were all irrelevant, because they were used to say something about their personality, or to exemplify an aspect of the main plot to make an emotional point. Dorian's doesn't do either of these things.

 

It literally is just an awkward life lesson, made worse by the fact that it completely disregards everything else that's been said about Dragon Age culture and sexuality. That's why I don't  like it.

 

I think all of this repetition could be avoided if you'd just read what people are saying.

 

Here.  Read this message from (Disgusted noise), because it's addresses perfectly exactly what you are saying. 

 

Did you even listen to what was said in the scene, or did you write it off and ignore it because you think it's supposedly badly written? Dorian states multiple times that the problem was that he refused to get married and play pretend for the sake of appearances, which is exactly what you're trying to suggest that they should have done. The problem wasn't that he was gay, it was that he refused to pretend otherwise which is what is accepted in Tevinter.

 

You seem to continue to dismiss this.  Nothing in the story "ignores the entire lore of Dragon Age".  It's clear in the lore that nobles in Tevinter are expected to marry and have children.  The only s/s relationships that are accepted are those between master and slave.  Dorian bucked this and refused to play that game.  It forced his father's hand, given the lore-established norms in Tevinter, who needed his line to continue.  He then tried to use blood magic to change Dorian.  Why does it need to be hammered over your head in more than one dialogue line to count?  He says this in the game.  It's clear.

 

I get what people are saying, but I still think think that our culture has enough lack of empathy that it wasn't a bad thing to include, especially given the virulent homophobia that players have posted in forums in past games. I think it functioned on more than one level. It developed Dorian's character AND left no doubt about where Bioware stood as a company. Yes, it was a tad heavy handed, and some of us have already heard it or know it all too well and want to focus elsewhere, but we may not have been who that was intended to affect. There are a number of player dialogues that I think are a result of Bioware being accused of sitting on the fence and wanting to rectify that.

 

I think that this is a great point.  The fact that Dorian's quest is a companion quest and not a romance quest means that all players (regardless of if they were going to romance him or not) were going to experience this quest.  That expands the scope of the audience to a lot of people who have never experienced this plot before.  Or, certainly, much less than the LGBT players.

 

The Carth/Thane/Sky/Steve trope of my dead/lost husband/wife/lover is far more of a cliche than what Dorian brought to the table. The fact that people keep suggesting it pretty much invalidates a lot of the supposed literary criticism being thrown around in here. And there is nothing less endearing from a character than hearing them mope about someone you never met for 80% of their scenes.

 

THANE!  That's who I was forgetting.  I knew someone else had Carth Syndrome, but I couldn't remember who.  I, for one, am thrilled that Dorian didn't have Carth Syndrome.  It dipped dangerously close there when

Spoiler

Felix died

, but thankfully Dorian made it clear that there was nothing between them.

[SardaukarElite]

It's not the blood magic or the message that's the problem, it's the fact that the quest focuses on a message that ignores the entire lore of all Dragon Age novels and games.

 

I haven't played the quest in question yet, but would you think it was better if the lore was different?

[Voragoras]

I haven't played the quest in question yet, but would you think it was better if the lore was different?

 

Yes. If Tevinter was established as a place where homosexuality wasn't tolerated at all, it would fit perfectly. Instead, it's a place where it's pretty much accepted/ignored as long as you have a kid, since that's the only thing that's relevant. iirc, it's encouraged between master and slave, but I may be mixing that up with actual in-game Tevinter and some aspects of Archaic/Ancient Greek society, so take that with a pinch of salt.

[daveliam]

Yes. If Tevinter was established as a place where homosexuality wasn't tolerated at all, it would fit perfectly. Instead, it's a place where it's pretty much accepted/ignored as long as you have a kid, since that's the only thing that's relevant. iirc, it's encouraged between master and slave, but I may be mixing that up with actual in-game Tevinter and some aspects of Archaic/Ancient Greek society, so take that with a pinch of salt.

 

Right and since Dorian flat out says that he's not willing to play along with that, it explains why his father isn't accepting of him.  The aberration is the fact that he's a noble heir and refuses to hide his sexuality or confine it to a slave plaything.  They flat out say this.  Had Dorian sucked it up and married some Tevinter gal, his father wouldn't have 'tried to change him'.  His father isn't anti-gay.  He's anti-refusal to produce offspring. 

 

And it's not encouraged between master and slave.  But that's the one condition where it's considered socially acceptable.  It's not even acceptable between two consenting magisters, if I recall correctly. 

[Chrys]

Okay, let's look at the video of the quest itself, shall we?
 
"I prefer the company of men. My father disapproves. Every Tevinter family is intermarrying to distill the perfect mage, perfect body, perfect mind. The perfect leader." (This, on its own, would be fine. However, it's immediately followed up by this:) "It means every perceived flaw - every aberration - is deviant and shameful. It must be hidden."
"But what was the first thing you did when your precious heir refused to play pretend for the rest of his life? You tried to change me."
 
Seems pretty clear. Father is trying to make their son straight, only using blood magic instead of bible camp. There's one or two lines thrown in about his legacy, but it's nearly always in reference to his sexuality. And his father doesn't try to change his personality, he tries to change his sexuality. Dorian not wanting to play along doesn't spark the blood magic, but his sexuality does. His choices are fine, but his sexuality is an aberration.
 
Like I said, it's clear if you read between the lines, but the focus of this scene is clearly that Dorian's sexuality is the problem. Not anything else.

Uh, what? It's clear in the *very* line you quoted that the major problem are Dorian's choices: he "refused to play pretend". It couldn't be more clear to me that his dad wasn't particularly bothered about who he slept with, but rather that he refused to keep it a secret activity with slaves and perform publicly as was expected of him.

[Chrys]

And in the follow-up scene Dorian reveals his parents' marriage was a facade kept up by two people who hated each other and since his father was willing to do this, he couldn't understand why Dorian wouldn't "play pretend".

[Voragoras]

Uh, what? It's clear in the *very* line you quoted that the major problem are Dorian's choices: he "refused to play pretend". It couldn't be more clear to me that his dad wasn't particularly bothered about who he slept with, but rather that he refused to keep it a secret activity with slaves and perform publicly as was expected of him.

 

Which is also what many people who refuse to play straight for their parents say, and it's a very often repeated line in the very cliche I'm complaining about, so I counted it as a double-sided comment with no heavy inclinations either way. I chose to include most of Dorian's suggestive dialogue in that scene because otherwise I'd be changing it to fit my purpose with obvious bias.

 

I've already said that his conflict with Tevinter society is present there, but it's not the main focus, and it's the fact that it's not the main focus that I'm complaining about. The sexuality part seems arbitrary and tacked on to make a political point.

 

tbh I see no point in pursuing this argument. We all have our opinions on the scene, and I doubt I'll change anyone else's, and I don't particularly want to. I'm expressing why I thought the scene was belittling and patronising to me, but others see it differently. That's fine.

[errantknight]

While it was about breeding, not his sexuality, I think people can be excused over thinking otherwise given the strong parallels to the straight indoctrination practiced by some groups. It wasn't subtle and since Bioware writers *can* be subtle, I don't think it was intended to be. In this game, they cleared up any misconceptions about where they stand as a company. I think we'll see more subtlety in future now that they've done that.

[SardaukarElite]

Yes. If Tevinter was established as a place where homosexuality wasn't tolerated at all, it would fit perfectly.

 

I think maybe they've boxed themselves in making Thedas as accepting as it is, if they want to tell these stories. I won't argue they don't make sense as is - I don't know - but it's clearly getting in the way.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I think maybe they've boxed themselves in making Thedas as accepting as it is, if they want to tell these stories. I won't argue they don't make sense as is - I don't know - but it's clearly getting in the way.

Not all of Thedas is accepting of homosexuality though, especially when you're talking about relationships rather than just sex. As has been pointed out several times, consensual relationships between people of the same sex is a taboo in Tevinter

[Voragoras]

I think maybe they've boxed themselves in making Thedas as accepting as it is, if they want to tell these stories. I won't argue they don't make sense as is - I don't know - but it's clearly getting in the way.

 

I agree. To be honest, I can see where the posters replying to me are coming from in that the quest does also mention Tevinter's society (something which I've never denied, and even outright stated on occasion), but personally, it reads much too similar to a generic bible camp story for me to consider it an original reflection of Dorian's character and his circumstances.

 

I also feel the comparisons to Thane/Sky/Carth/Steve/etc. are a bit disingenuous, as in all of those cases the miscellaneous lover is used to further their personalities or the story itself, more than make any statement or anything else. They might not be the most creative backstories, but I think that they were done well. Thane's love is tragic and upsetting for him, a personal failure that motivates him, whereas Sky's daughter's death makes him angry and inspires him towards vengeance (which Thane's also did, but in a different way). Steve's is a reflection of the Reaper War and gives insight into how personal the conflict can be, and there is a tangible sense of loss amongst the crewmen. The same thing is done with Garrus' family, though they turn out to be alright in the end, and Ashley's sister's husband.

 

The premise might be cliche, but I think the way they approached it was unique enough and applicable enough to justify it.

 

ALSO, on Tevinter's attitude towards sexuality, I just Googled the codex: http://dragonage.wik...r_relationships

You can see here: "In Tevinter, same-sex relationships between nobles are largely hidden. These relationships are encouraged with favored slaves."

 

So I wasn't mixing it up with Ancient Greece, after all. I knew I remembered something like that.

[Chrys]

I think people overplay the acceptance in the south as well. In the city elf origin, you are forced to marry someone of the opposite gender. You are not allowed to refuse for whatever reason and the only way out of it would have been running away. Sure, your cousin has no problem with it if you show up later with a same-sex lover, but that's a different acceptance than being allowed not to play by the marriage rules.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I think people overplay the acceptance in the south as well. In the city elf origin, you are forced to marry someone of the opposite gender. You are not allowed to refuse for whatever reason and the only way out of it would have been running away. Sure, your cousin has no problem with it if you show up later with a same-sex lover, but that's a different acceptance than being allowed not to play by the marriage rules.

Yeah, a lot of people seem to think the fact it's not criminalized anywhere means the it's considered universally socially acceptable. Zevran, Leliana, and Anders all exhibit hesitancy or defensiveness about their sexuality and/or former same-sex lovers. If there was no prejudice, they wouldn't have those reactions.

[Draining Dragon]

That quest was about his refusal to be breed stock for his father, not about him being gay. Good gods, did we play the same game?

Good question, since Dorian explicitly says that he prefers the company of men, and that his father disapproves of that, specifically.

[Voragoras]

I think people overplay the acceptance in the south as well. In the city elf origin, you are forced to marry someone of the opposite gender. You are not allowed to refuse for whatever reason and the only way out of it would have been running away. Sure, your cousin has no problem with it if you show up later with a same-sex lover, but that's a different acceptance than being allowed not to play by the marriage rules.

 

That's more out of practicality than anything else, though, and isn't sexuality-restricted, but that would cause additional conflicts. There was an elven lass that hated you for netting an awesome husband/bride because your father could afford to get one for you, whereas she was stuck with a useless layabout, so I'd assume taking a mistress, male or female, would probably be a pretty common practice, and the marriage is more of a formality. Kind of like Orlais. Maybe even Tevinter, but probably not.

 

I'm not that I'm saying it's always universally approved of, obviously, just that alienages are a special case due to the nature of the elves' oppression.

[Eivuwan]

ALSO, on Tevinter's attitude towards sexuality, I just Googled the codex: http://dragonage.wik...r_relationships

You can see here: "In Tevinter, same-sex relationships between nobles are largely hidden. These relationships are encouraged with favored slaves."

 

So I wasn't mixing it up with Ancient Greece, after all. I knew I remembered something like that.

 

Yeah, so it isn't actually accepted in Tevinter if they have to hide between nobles and only encouraged with slaves.

[Voragoras]

Yeah, so it isn't actually accepted in Tevinter if they have to hide between nobles and only encouraged with slaves.

 

I never said that it was an open thing and everyone is okay with it and all is fine and dandy. My argument was that they don't object to homosexuality as much as they object to refusing to play by their breeding game, so Dorian's father's random disapproval to the extent of trying to change his sexuality with blood magic doesn't make sense, and making Dorian's sexuality the problem that his father is trying to change rather than Dorian's response to his sexuality is what I don't like.

 

Dorian's sexuality is irrelevant. His refusal to play by their rules would still be present, whether he wanted to sleep with a woman or a man, so it's odd that his father chose to change the one thing that isn't actually a proper issue in Tevinter.

[Chrys]

Good question, since Dorian explicitly says that he prefers the company of men, and that his father disapproves of that, specifically.

 

He says after that that it's an aberration that must be hidden. He refused to hide it, that is, getting married, having kids and having sex with slaves.

 

That's more out of practicality than anything else, though, and isn't sexuality-restricted, but that would cause additional conflicts. There was an elven lass that hated you for netting an awesome husband/bride because your father could afford to get one for you, whereas she was stuck with a useless layabout, so I'd assume taking a mistress, male or female, would probably be a pretty common practice, and the marriage is more of a formality. Kind of like Orlais. Maybe even Tevinter, but probably not.
 
I'm not that I'm saying it's always universally approved of, obviously, just that alienages are a special case due to the nature of the elves' oppression.

What I meant is that in that case "acceptance" didn't mean no one cared and you could live as you wished, but only that you could have same-sex lovers while having a pretend marriage. Which means Dorian would also have been a pariah if he were an elf in a Fereldan alienage.

[Chrys]

 Dorian's sexuality is irrelevant. His refusal to play by their rules would still be present, whether he wanted to sleep with a woman or a man, so it's odd that his father chose to change the one thing that isn't actually a proper issue in Tevinter.

We're not clear on how much of his personality the ritual would have changed, though. Dorian does say that it could have turned him into a drooling vegetable so I doubt it would surgically alter just one thing instead of a more general rewrite/mind control. Even if it only changed his sexuality, though, it makes sense that his father would assume that if only Dorian liked women, he could find one woman in all of Tevinter that Dorian would agree to marry.

[Voragoras]

 What I meant is that in that case "acceptance" didn't mean no one cared and you could live as you wished, but only that you could have same-sex lovers while having a pretend marriage. Which means Dorian would also have been a pariah if he were an elf in a Fereldan alienage.

 

True, but there a marriage feels less like a political game and more like a necessity of life that everyone finds unpleasant but has to deal with anyway. Alienages are struggling under poverty and systematic oppression that's both dogged and tyrannical. An arl's son and his friends can waltz in there and take 4 to 5 women on a wedding day, in front of a Chantry sister, and go ahead and rape them for his birthday, without a thing anybody can do. I doubt that's indicative of Fereldan's general attitude towards rape or women, which seems fairly progressive in either case.

 

Alienages are extraneous circumstances, imo.