80 réponses à ce sujet

[Matth85]

Longevity does not equate profits

 

False.

Longeveity makes for good marketing. Good makreting makes for good goodwill and hype. That ends in more sales. 

Take bethesda.

 

Morrowind was not highly hyped. Only real RPG fans and Daggerfall fans knew of it at release. It bought a modding culture with it.

Oblivion was hyped because of it, and became a best seller from the get go.

Skyrim was so unbelievable hyped because of both, and reached incredible sales. The game was half-broken on release, but guess what? Modder fix bugs -- for free.

 

Modding is all positive and no negative. It would not be hard to make a system to prevent modding for MP, while having it for SP. The tool would also not need to be detailed -- just a simple tool is enough.

 

Modding means a few things:

- It's the perfect marketing tactic. Want to know what people want? Check the mods.

- It's the perfect way to increase popularity. 

- It's the perfect way to get bugs fixed, or release a half-finished games. Modder will fix it.

- It inspire a community. The modding community behind Skyrim is insane. They/we don't mod because it's skyrim, we mod because we can mod it, regardless of game.

- It inspires. Wonder what addition to add to a new game? Check the mods! 

 

And for the players who doesn't mod you get:

 

- More things! Armor, weapons, horses, etc!

- Rebalance and overhauls! 

- Fix bugs!

- Fix models! (Too humanoid Qunari face, elf body looks too tiny, etc)

- Advance Tactics? No problems!

- New magic spells? No problems!

- New quests and areas? No problems!

- New perks? No problems!

- New talent trees? no problems!

etc

 

And as modders we get:

 

- Experience with different engines. The engine of Skyrim, Gambryo/Creation engine, is so outdated. 

- Experience modding next-gen games. Skyrim is 2011, uses 1k textures and medium polygon models. Good for 2011, not for 2014.

- Make what we feel needed! I made this for Skyrim. I would love giving it to Cassandra as well!

- Fix what bothers us! Damn elf body. Damn clipping. Annoying elevation bugs. etc. etc.

- Become better modders! Potential applying for jobs at Bioware!(not really.. but.. you know.. maybe)

[Travie]

I would think that supporting the mod community would be a no brainer at this point. I guess Dragon Age doesn't want to sell 10 million copies like Skyrim. Their loss. 

[Frozenkex]

I would think that supporting the mod community would be a no brainer at this point. I guess Dragon Age doesn't want to sell 10 million copies like Skyrim. Their loss. 

knowing ea they'll try to make up the 'loss' through micro transactions and expensive marketing. Or I mean that's exactly where they have already put their efforts before game launched.

[robertthebard]

False.
Longeveity makes for good marketing. Good makreting makes for good goodwill and hype. That ends in more sales. 
Take bethesda.
 
Morrowind was not highly hyped. Only real RPG fans and Daggerfall fans knew of it at release. It bought a modding culture with it.
Oblivion was hyped because of it, and became a best seller from the get go.
Skyrim was so unbelievable hyped because of both, and reached incredible sales. The game was half-broken on release, but guess what? Modder fix bugs -- for free.
 
Modding is all positive and no negative. It would not be hard to make a system to prevent modding for MP, while having it for SP. The tool would also not need to be detailed -- just a simple tool is enough.
 
Modding means a few things:
- It's the perfect marketing tactic. Want to know what people want? Check the mods.
- It's the perfect way to increase popularity. 
- It's the perfect way to get bugs fixed, or release a half-finished games. Modder will fix it.
- It inspire a community. The modding community behind Skyrim is insane. They/we don't mod because it's skyrim, we mod because we can mod it, regardless of game.
- It inspires. Wonder what addition to add to a new game? Check the mods! 
 
And for the players who doesn't mod you get:
 
- More things! Armor, weapons, horses, etc!
- Rebalance and overhauls! 
- Fix bugs!
- Fix models! (Too humanoid Qunari face, elf body looks too tiny, etc)
- Advance Tactics? No problems!
- New magic spells? No problems!
- New quests and areas? No problems!
- New perks? No problems!
- New talent trees? no problems!
etc
 
And as modders we get:
 
- Experience with different engines. The engine of Skyrim, Gambryo/Creation engine, is so outdated. 
- Experience modding next-gen games. Skyrim is 2011, uses 1k textures and medium polygon models. Good for 2011, not for 2014.
- Make what we feel needed! I made this for Skyrim. I would love giving it to Cassandra as well!
- Fix what bothers us! Damn elf body. Damn clipping. Annoying elevation bugs. etc. etc.
- Become better modders! Potential applying for jobs at Bioware!(not really.. but.. you know.. maybe)

How many copies of Origins have sold in the last three days? This is what profit is, games selling long after they're done with their development cycles. People still playing, not so much. People are still playing NWNs, how much money is BioWare, or Atari making? Not enough to keep the old servers they used to use up and running. Both examples of longevity that aren't turning a profit. W/out a profit, there's not much point to supporting something, from a business state.

As an aside, I'm not anti-modding, just anti BioWare taking the time to support it, instead of providing us with new content. With DAMP running as well, that means they're going to need new maps, new enemies, etc etc, and they've already stated that, as with ME 3, that content will be free. So the less stuff they're doing for free, the better the odds of us getting something for the SP aspects of the game, where my interest lies.

As an interesting aside, I think there was a guy in the NWN community that did go to work for BioWare, but I could be mistaken, or misremembering.

[TsaiMeLemoni]

That would be your opinion when in fact mods turned skyrim into a work of art. Sure there are some mods that are trash but by far and large many were focused on new quests, improving combat, new locations, and of course there is a massive section dedicated to appearances which allowed for some of the single most popular mods on skyrim nexus. Tens of thousands of people downloaded mods to upgrade the appearance of so many things so they could have a nicer looking more immersive game. If you think mods ruined skyrim you are clearly lacking any kind of knowledge of the actual facts which is that from a business standpoint, it actually generated them far more business which means more money. It created excellent word of mouth. I know several people who actually purchased gaming rigs to play it on PC because of these mods. This means it also helped the economy beyond itself by allowing and encouraging mods.

 

Mods did not ruin skyrim by any stretch of the imagination unless you happen to be focused on a very few mods that were more sexual in nature and statistically speaking that was probably less than 2% of the actual mods available. Clearly you do not know of what you speak. Mods did anything BUT ruin skyrim. They extended its life years beyond what it would have been without it. Even now, three years later, mods are still being released and people are still playing skyrim to try them. Name me any game that doesn't have mods that has that kind of lifespan where thousands of people still play it years later.

 

Edited to add that people are even still playing Oblivion and Fallout 3 because of the mods.

 

You may want to recalibrate your sarcasm-meter.

[robertthebard]

I would think that supporting the mod community would be a no brainer at this point. I guess Dragon Age doesn't want to sell 10 million copies like Skyrim. Their loss.

So do you have actual sales numbers that state they sold that many copies due to modding, or are we just going to have to accept your hyperbole as evidence? Frankly, I'd much prefer the former, because the latter is, you know hyperbolic.

[AzureAardvark]

Let's break that down into consequences: Instead of working on new content, they are constantly working to make sure that Harry's "everyone is naked all the time" mod works well with Sally's "Cassandra has bigger breasts" mod, and that both work well with Derp's "I press one button, and everything on the map dies"(which, when running with Harry's mod above includes the PC and their party, and that has to be fixed, since we're "Officially Supporting" mods now), instead of working on the next DLC, or patches and bug fixes for the code they actually wrote. All of this for free, of course, since it's 3rd party code, and not the property of BioWare. So no, I don't think they should officially support mods. Apply your self professed level of higher education to that concept, and tell me it's a solid business model.

 

You're going to need more than "..because I said so." in here.  Mods are officially supported in DA:O (what else do you call making the hook points public?), but I'm not aware of BW spending any cycles whatever in making sure 3rd party mods are compatible.  Because they haven't, and many aren't.

 

Mods keep old games running and interesting in the time between releases; if I didn't have good mods for DA:O, I'd likely have drifted off to some other franchise by now (particularly after DA2). That's moneyz BW would not have made.

 

As I mentioned before, you've got some good points against modding, but the way you run around and fight each and every possible point without exception weakens, not strengthens, your arguments. You come across as a dishonest debater.

[Frybread76]

EA is well known for being anti-mods.  It's pretty easy to see why, too.  Remember those "item packs" for DA2?  They gave us a bunch of stuff whose main attraction was power.  The accessories from an item pack mod that you got straight out of Gamlen's House in Act I often (if not always) put high dragon drops to shame.  They were selling power.  If anyone can go make an axe that hits for 9999 every hit, then EA can't sell power.  And that means EA makes less money.

 

Importance of customer satisfaction in EA's eyes: 20

Importance of money in EA's eyes: ∞

 

This is my theory with the anti-modding stance of some game developers and publishers to date - competition.  Modders usually can't compete with a full DLC or expansion (it usually takes years after the game has sold), but modders can make content just as good or better that companies sell as microtransactions (like weapons, skins, armors, new abilities, etc.).

 

It's a shame, really, as modding has greatly extended the life of many games for me - Skyrim being an example.  The vanilla Skyrim is OK but the mods make it great.  I also own all the DLC to that game, BTW.

[AzureAardvark]

I also own all the DLC to that game, BTW.

 

As do I ... because many of the mods I wanted required the complete (all DLC at the time) game.

I've never actually played any of them, come to think of it, heh ... I just needed them to make various mods work. 

[lady8jane]

DA:O release without EA: Tons of Mods

DA 2 release with EA: Very few mods, mostly of cosmetical nature.

DA:I release with EA: Most likely little to no mods to come.

 

Purely coincidentally.

 

I think someone else already pointed out that DA:O was also released with EA (it even shows EA when you open the game for crying out loud!) ...

 

Then there is this EA studio that explicitly supports modders: http://www.thesims.c...s/mod-mod-world

 

It's just that Frostbite is not that easy to mod, there are no mod kits, and they only use the engine in-house. Having such a sophisticated engine exclusively for your games is a massive advantage for any game developer. Developing and maintaining a game engine is really, really expensive.

[Vasudeva]

How many copies of Origins have sold in the last three days? This is what profit is, games selling long after they're done with their development cycles. People still playing, not so much. People are still playing NWNs, how much money is BioWare, or Atari making? Not enough to keep the old servers they used to use up and running. Both examples of longevity that aren't turning a profit. W/out a profit, there's not much point to supporting something, from a business state.

As an aside, I'm not anti-modding, just anti BioWare taking the time to support it, instead of providing us with new content. With DAMP running as well, that means they're going to need new maps, new enemies, etc etc, and they've already stated that, as with ME 3, that content will be free. So the less stuff they're doing for free, the better the odds of us getting something for the SP aspects of the game, where my interest lies.

As an interesting aside, I think there was a guy in the NWN community that did go to work for BioWare, but I could be mistaken, or misremembering.

No there was a guy wrote a series of mods about a paladin, supposed to be a three part one but before he released the third part, he got hired away Paladin: Twilight and Midnight by Richard Burton, they were awesome awesome games, so many games came out of the Neverwinter Nights game, if anyone ever has a mind, picking up the NWN releases and pay NWN Vault a visit to download and play some of the best games bar none.  

Fact is many modders use mods as a stepping stone to working in the business.  Might say it's their portfolio 

[Potatoespotate]

"Should Bioware pay more attention to modders and their creations?"

 

They don't owe the modders anything. Nothing. That might an unpopular opinion, but it's true. They create the game to the best of their ability and the time frame. The reason that modders can make things such as long hairstyles etc is because they don't have to pass the high requirements that the developers have, it also doesn't have to go through QA or anything like that. Basically as long as it doesn't crash the game they're like ALL GOOD. Frostbite may be EA's engine but they use plenty of middleware which has licensing costs, among other things. They told people ages ago that they wouldn't have a mod toolkit, and if they did, it wouldn't be till far after release.

 

Also, Bioware has always had a positive stance on modders. Just because they don't release a toolkit doesn't mean they automatically hate everyone and don't want people to mod their games. Toolkits cost money, creating a modding toolkit for Frostbite would cost even more money since it doesn't even exist. It's likely they wouldn't make a profit from it. It's also likely that their publisher doesn't want to put money into something like that.

[Potatoespotate]

 

Edited to add that people are even still playing Oblivion and Fallout 3 because of the mods.

 

I play those games without mods for the most part, I continue playing them because I like killing everybody in the whole world. I've also played DA:O and DA2 plenty of times without mods. Great games make people play them over and over, not just because of mods.

[Vasudeva]

I play those games without mods for the most part, I continue playing them because I like killing everybody in the whole world. I've also played DA:O and DA2 plenty of times without mods. Great games make people play them over and over, not just because of mods.

BUTTTT when you really want to change it up and add in things, it's great to have those mods.  I still play all of the above plus the Baldur Gate series, but with mods.  I have three desktops heeh.  My older games on older systems mods and all.  I always do recommend playing them unmodded in first or second even third play throughs before modding. Seeing the game as intended is always great. Unless of course, they are so darn buggy on the pc that it's a total shock the game doesn't grow legs and walk off, ie Skyrim was a great example. To this day I won't even consider a console, pc's and ability to mod my games on them, has me spoiled rotten.   But it's like watching re runs of The Walking Dead, you can only do it just so much before, you're done.

[Matth85]

How many copies of Origins have sold in the last three days? This is what profit is, games selling long after they're done with their development cycles. People still playing, not so much. People are still playing NWNs, how much money is BioWare, or Atari making? Not enough to keep the old servers they used to use up and running. Both examples of longevity that aren't turning a profit. W/out a profit, there's not much point to supporting something, from a business state.

 

You are looking at this in a closed-off perspective! That won't do.

You are right - they don't get money from me playing an old game now. However, if a game is being played long after its "death" (TES games, Fallout games, etc), it's popularity grows, its community grows and the hype grows. 

For example:

 

If Bethesda announces a new TES 6 tomorrow. What would happen? 

If Bioware announced a new DA tomorrow. What would happen?

 

Bioware isn't worse than Bethesda as a game studio, just different. TES games build on modding, and they have made million profit off of it. Even if Bethesda released a game worth 4/10, it would get a 8/10 simply thanks to modders patching it up.

 

There is also no need to spend time and money supporting modding. Do you think Bethesda spends resources on it? No. They editted their editor, by taking out licensed parts, and gave it to us. Everything else is us, not them. It costs them nothing, and it gains them a lot. It's a perfect example of somebody doing philanthropy. They get goodwill in the market by giving us a modding tool. We love them for it, it costs them nothing. Win - win. 

 

So the less stuff they're doing for free, the better the odds of us getting something for the SP aspects of the game, where my interest lies.

 

Given history of DA games: What do you really expect to get? 

Modders give better content, for free. This is for obvious reasons. Though I guess this is one reason they don't want us to mod.

[Patchwork]

It's great when companies put out a toolset but I'm happy enough when the company isn't actively working against modders. 

 

IMO when starting a new project whether it's for the current release or something new the smart thing is to look at what's out there and popular mod wise for your games. It's a clue about what's important to the people whose money you want. 

[Wildspirit]

"Should Bioware pay more attention to modders and their creations?"

 

They don't owe the modders anything. Nothing. That might an unpopular opinion, but it's true. They create the game to the best of their ability and the time frame. The reason that modders can make things such as long hairstyles etc is because they don't have to pass the high requirements that the developers have, it also doesn't have to go through QA or anything like that. Basically as long as it doesn't crash the game they're like ALL GOOD. Frostbite may be EA's engine but they use plenty of middleware which has licensing costs, among other things. They told people ages ago that they wouldn't have a mod toolkit, and if they did, it wouldn't be till far after release.

 

Also, Bioware has always had a positive stance on modders. Just because they don't release a toolkit doesn't mean they automatically hate everyone and don't want people to mod their games. Toolkits cost money, creating a modding toolkit for Frostbite would cost even more money since it doesn't even exist. It's likely they wouldn't make a profit from it. It's also likely that their publisher doesn't want to put money into something like that.

 

the sad truth is that modd would impact future DLC sales and make consoles sales less likely as player would opt for PC version just to be able to use mods. 

 

Many people who bought Skyrim on console bought it later on PC to use mods. I know at least 5 people who did that in my friends and family circle, and a lot more I've seen on forums and such.

 

Bioware fears modders like hell, cause they know modders will likely do a better job than they did and that will impact negatively on them. 

 

You can say whatever you want, but nowadays, not allowing mods on games is pure bullshit.

 

As a future producer / publisher, I would love to see players mod my games and I'll hapily try every mods and see what's working for the community to improve next game. 

 

I guess we have different vision on how to keep communities alive and happy

[Bluto Blutarskyx]

Yes,

While dai is a vast improvement and biowares best game since dao, they are still leagues behind fallout new Vegas and a decent amount behind skyrim.

One of the things that makes Bethseda so far ahead is the working with modders and even attempts to bring a modder community and ability to share mods on consoles.

Bioware needs to step it up in a big big way if they want to run with the big dogs again.

[Bluto Blutarskyx]

Modders also add to the life and future sales of a game. Which means longer periods for dlc. You act like modders skip dlc entirely. Nothing could be further front he truth and the vast majority of mods are overhauls or re touches or well "modifications" not additional world missions that expand the story.

[Giantdeathrobot]

There really is no argument against mods if you ask me (from a consumer perspective).

 

People make bad/sexist/racist mods? Don't download them. 

 

Multiplayer doesn't allow mods? Please. Know what the most modded game out there is, going by downloads on the main website? World of Warcraft. Sure, the vast majority are just add-ons, but it's still modding, in an MMO. World of Tanks also has lots of mods, and is only multiplayer. Total War games have a pretty big mod support, as well as a multiplayer component, so do Relic games and the Civilization series. It's very doable.

 

Modding affects the game in unexpected ways? That's half the fun of it erm I mean, it's not supposed to happen unless the modder or the devs do their job badly. 

 

There are two reasons we have no mod support I think; first, because Frostbite is notoriously hard to mod (exactly how hard I don't know), and second because EA is trying to distance itself from mods as much as they can. I imagine because it runs in opposition to selling minor DLC, which is the kind of things that modders do, and sometimes better than the devs.

 

[Linkenski]

The first thing that comes to mind is MEHEM, so God no, never ever do that Bioware. ME3's ending might be atrocious, but MEHEM is just as terrible in its own way.

[Vandicus]

Most of Skyrim's sales weren't on PC, so nothing to do with mods. Sure it probably had something to do with PC sales figures, but its disingenuous to attribute sales on platforms that can't use mods to the success of modding. 

[DarkSpiral]

I find that game mods tend to just fill in some sort of deficiency in a game. Skyrim is a good example of this. Does Origins have a mod that isn't about appearance?

 

Not counting the many overhauls to the combat system, and additions to the classes?

 

The only one I can think of that I tried and then kept was a small series of missions in the evlen Alienage that had to be completed before the Landsmeet, or it disappeared.  It filled in a serious gap of time, especially when you're playing a city elf.  However, its the only content mod I can think of that I truly applauded as adding to the experience, and not feeling genuinely out of place in the lore and setting.

 

Wait!  The Winter Forge.  It added crafting of weapons and armor.  That mod was open for powergaming abuse, but it also allowed gear customization.  The responsibility of use was left up to the player.

[Silent Fear]

Most of Skyrim's sales weren't on PC, so nothing to do with mods. Sure it probably had something to do with PC sales figures, but its disingenuous to attribute sales on platforms that can't use mods to the success of modding. 

 

Sorry where exactly are you getting this solid info ? All i could find is as follows

 

"Total number of sold copies on the PC platform is difficult to confirm because Steam doesn't publicly publish digital sales.[121] During this time, Skyrim was the most-played game on Steam by a huge margin, with double the number of players as Team Fortress 2, the second-placed game.[122] In the United Kingdom, Skyrim was the 9th best selling title of 2012.[123] In June 2013, Bethesda announced that over 20 million copies of the game had been sold.[124] In regards to sales on the PC, Todd Howard stated in an interview with Rock, Paper, Shotgun that “Skyrim did better than we’ve ever done on PC by a large, large number. And that’s where the mods are. That feeds the game for a long time."[125]"

 

Soo mind sharing your link ?