519 réponses à ce sujet

[keyip]

I can't. You aren't even twisting my words. You're misunderstanding them so horribly that there is simply no discussing it with you.

 

Me - "The problem is not that there is lot's of extra content I feel compelled to do"

 

You've highlighted this, despite the fact that I've literally just said that that ISN'T the problem.

 

You - "Claiming that they are boring as a fact and that they have no purpose is simply wrong."

 

Me - "it's that (in my opinion) the content is mostly shallow and not fun."

 

You're compulsion to do quests you find boring is LITERALLY the problem. If you don't understand that, you're being deliberately obtuse.

[Tsunami Chef]

I agree DA:I is a horrible fetch questing nightmare. Why don't we all get off these forums and go play a non fetch quest game that we enjoy and leave the people who enjoy this pile of feces without one redeeming aspect to their horrible game, so they can mingle with their dumb selves. I mean really, is this fetch quest nightmare even worth the effort? Let's leave it to the losers who enjoy that kind of stuff.

[Lebanese Dude]

I can't. You aren't even twisting my words. You're misunderstanding them so horribly that there is simply no discussing it with you.

 

Me - "The problem is not that there is lot's of extra content I feel compelled to do"

 

You've highlighted this, despite the fact that I've literally just said that that ISN'T the problem.

 

You - "Claiming that they are boring as a fact and that they have no purpose is simply wrong."

 

Me - "it's that (in my opinion) the content is mostly shallow and not fun."

 

IN MY OPINION. IT'S RIGHT THERE.

 

I know it's the default on the internet to be hostile and rude to anyone who doesn't share your opinion but I still, ridiculously optimistically, expect people to rise above that urge somehow. Your responses are hostile, condescending and bitchy and they completely obliterate any chance of constructive dialogue. You claim that I'm demanding to have the game as I want (despite the fact that I made it very clear I'm expressing a personal opinion) and yet are stomping all over anyone with a clashing opinion.

 

 

May I point out that it was you who turned hostile when I offered a potential solution, by immediately going on the defensive?

 

All I said is that perhaps you can try to ration the zone exploration across playthroughs to enjoy it as it was delivered in DAO.

 

Should I insert more smilies or something to make you feel at ease? Is any discussion related to what you "feel" immediately off limits?

 

I also get that it's the default to be easily offended on the internet, so don't worry.

 

I'm still waiting for you to actually say something in response to the relevant parts of my "hostile" posts, seeing as I never claimed that your opinions are  without merit while you are consistently saying that I am.

[Fandango]

So wait what do those posts have to do with our current subject of discourse? Strawman much?
You can clearly see that I discussed the subject with you and even agreed to some of your points.
Now how about return to the actual subject at hand?

Sure, we can talk a little more about your own peculiar brand of blatant, bullish cheerleading Lebanese Dude? You first.

[Lebanese Dude]

Sure, we can talk a little more about your own peculiar brand of blatant, bullish cheerleading dude? You first.

 

More name-calling? Can you at least try to be polite? Grow up boy.

---

 

KillTheLastRomantic said that a self-inflicted drive to complete optional content factors into the game's quality and then used the statement: Quality over Quantity when describing DAI quest design.

 

Give me a counterargument to the reply below: (I'm going to bed but I'll read it in the morning)

 

A lot of people don't like romances. Does their inclusion reduce the game's quality somehow, especially when it can be avoided?

You use DAO as an example, when that only proves my point. There is an equivalent amount of major story content, if not more, and there are some power requirements that ask you to do some exploration and the occasional side quest, in the same vein as DAO.

 

You say that you can only play the game as a completionist, then say that BioWare isn't catering to your taste in gameplay and is therefore doing a bad job, then throwing out the useless "Quality over Quantity" as if that makes any sense.

 

A simple analogy:

 

You have 20 cheeseburgers and 20 stalks of asparagus for 20 people.

Now you have 25 cheeseburgers and 100 stalks of asparagus for 20 people.

 

You imply that the quality of the buffet was reduced, when you enjoy the same amount of food with extra stalks of asparagus.

[Maverick827]

More name-calling? Can you at least try to be polite? Grow up boy.

---

 

KillTheLastRomantic said that a self-inflicted drive to complete optional content factors into the game's quality and then used the statement: Quality over Quantity when describing DAI quest design.

 

Give me a counterargument to the reply below: (I'm going to bed but I'll read it in the morning)

 

A lot of people don't like romances. Does their inclusion reduce the game's quality somehow, especially when it can be avoided?

You use DAO as an example, when that only proves my point. There is an equivalent amount of major story content, if not more, and there are some power requirements that ask you to do some exploration and the occasional side quest, in the same vein as DAO.

 

You say that you can only play the game as a completionist, then say that BioWare isn't catering to your taste in gameplay and is therefore doing a bad job, then throwing out the useless "Quality over Quantity" as if that makes any sense.

 

A simple analogy:

 

You have 20 cheeseburgers and 20 stalks of asparagus for 20 people.

Now you have 25 cheeseburgers and 100 stalks of asparagus for 20 people.

 

You imply that the quality of the buffet was reduced, when you enjoy the same amount of food with extra stalks of asparagus.

 

Many would argue that there are not 25 cheeseburgers.  Many would argue that there are not even 20 cheeseburgers.

 

And that's why I hate analogies, because that sentence was insane.

[Zorlagius]

A whole lot of leveling comes from story quests and rifts (the latter of which can be selected to follow the main quest path). You may have to explore a bit to level comfortably in nightmare, but for normal or even hard (and certainly casual) the xp will be enough to get through the game just fine with minimal roaming.

Only thing you need is gear, really. I completed Emprise de Lyon main branch (taking out the big bad demon) with level 12 characters in Nightmare, and it wasn`t hard at all. I played like crap too, no pausing and very little though put on resistances or anything. Gear can be had by dipping in Emprise or Hissing Wastes as soon as you can and farming chests for a bit for blueprints and easy to get tier 3 mats. You can basically ignore mid tier zones entirely, besides fulfilling the main quest requirements (in Crestwood and Western Approach).

[Natureguy85]

 

Give me a counterargument to the reply below: (I'm going to bed but I'll read it in the morning)

 

A lot of people don't like romances. Does their inclusion reduce the game's quality somehow, especially when it can be avoided?

You use DAO as an example, when that only proves my point. There is an equivalent amount of major story content, if not more, and there are some power requirements that ask you to do some exploration and the occasional side quest, in the same vein as DAO.

 

You say that you can only play the game as a completionist, then say that BioWare isn't catering to your taste in gameplay and is therefore doing a bad job, then throwing out the useless "Quality over Quantity" as if that makes any sense.

 

A simple analogy:

 

You have 20 cheeseburgers and 20 stalks of asparagus for 20 people.

Now you have 25 cheeseburgers and 100 stalks of asparagus for 20 people.

 

You imply that the quality of the buffet was reduced, when you enjoy the same amount of food with extra stalks of asparagus.

 

Instead of buying more asparagus, why not get a higher quality beef? Or get bacon and cheese. Or get steak instead of burgers. All of these things improve the quality of the main meal rather than multiply the side dishes. Even in your example you glorify quantity. You just get more of the same asparagus.

 

 

On a different note, you took issue with this comment:

 

 

The only games I really play are RPG's and that is how I play them. I USUALLY enjoy that method. The problem is not that there is lot's of extra content I feel compelled to do, it's that (in my opinion) the content is mostly shallow and not fun. I should WANT to do it.

 

What is wrong with wanting a compelling reason to do quests? It's nice to have more than "That guy has an exclamation point over his head".

[Natureguy85]

I don't have Inquisition so I have a question about Power. Can it be spent or used to influence anything, or is it just a score that unlocks things once you get high enough?

[SirJoeofthePub]

Unlocks missions and end game.

[keyip]

What is wrong with wanting a compelling reason to do quests? It's nice to have more than "That guy has an exclamation point over his head".

 

Because when you want a great deal more of everything (which is what people wanted after DA:2) then tech limitations and budget demands will demand less depth to compensate. Show me an open-world game (which is what the fanbase wanted) with mostly compelling quests and I'll show you a one-eyed fanboy.

[In Exile]

DAI has a big map filled with boring HP piñata fights and DAO had a big map filled with boring trash mob fights. Most fights in DAO were designed to add XP to your part not to kill it. Same thing wi DAI. In DAO the was a boss fight that might result in death if you were not careful, in DAI the dragon fills that role along wi whatever the "final" boss is in the map "story".

The fact that the map in DAO was "a" place as opposed to a region doesn't change the inherent nature of what you are experiencing. It is as if the game would be different if there was a roof over the entire Emerald Graves map so it would be a dungeon.

The fact we spend a lot less time in graves and tombs and underground (comparatively) to DAO is one of the few very good things to be said for DAIs open world IMO.

[Realmzmaster]

What does one mean by a compelling reason? That differs depending on the gamer. For some gamers the fact that the quest exists is compelling enough. It was like asking George Mallory why he climbed Mount Everest. He replied "Because it's there". That is enough for some gamers. For some gamers the fact that the quest leads them to further explore an area is compelling enough. I want to see what is out there.

 

For some gamers the quest must open up other story possibilities. I think that reason is good, but so are the other reasons.

 

So compelling reason depends on the gamers.

[In Exile]

I totally forgot those Mage Collective stuff. How awesome it was to play a postman in Origins delivering notice of termination. I feel cheated. No cinematic dialogue appeared

Not just any postman. A postman who fired people!

[In Exile]

A "fetch quest" is a term that refers to a quest that either has little-to-no significance to the main plot or doesn't hold up on it's own as a compelling story, that requires you to go and get something for an NPC. This "something" is typically mundane and boring and this NPC is typically a nobody. A fetch quest could have you go get something exciting and could be given by an important NPC, but if the game does nothing with the item, the NPC, or your actions after you have completed the quest, then it's still a fetch quest.

For instance, it doesn't matter if the king sends you on a quest to retrieve the royal family's lost legendary sword from a thief, if, upon your return, the king says "oh great thanks here's some gold" and that's the end. It was as much of a fetch quest as the no-name healer NPC who asked you to go get three common herbs to heal the sick because it didn't affect the main plot and wasn't a very compelling story on its own.

Some people try to abstract any quest that requires you to go and get something as a "fetch quest," but the term really only applies to low-significance quests as described above. If we take the same quest outline (king sends player to get sword), we can easily turn the quest into a non-fetch quest.

So the king sends you to find the royal family's lost legendary sword from a thief, as was the case last time. Only this time, instead of simply finding an enemy NPC with the name "Thief," killing them, looting the [Royal Family Sword], and returning it to the king, instead you find a named NPC that you can interact with.

Upon speaking with her, you learn that she is a descendant from the family that the current royal family kicked out of power centuries ago, and the sword is actually her family's sword, which is why she took it back. The game gives you three choices: kill her and take the sword, offer to buy the sword from her (her family has fallen on hard times, surely gold is more valuable than sentiment), or let her go.

But wait! It turns out that the king also sent a few of his own men to follow you in secret. If you choose to let her go, then they try to arrest both of you. The game gives you the choice to persuade/intimidate/bribe the guards, but failing that, it comes down to combat. After the player (and the thief, who obviously becomes a friendly NPC for the fight) defeats the guards, he or she is given the chance to persuade the bandit to come work for the [Special Group You're Always Forced To Join In Every BioWare Game], and if successful, earns whatever perks that gives.

At this point, the player can return to the king to turn in the quest. If the player acquired the sword either by killing the thief or by purchasing it, then he or she can give it to the king, or choose to lie and say that the thief had allies and that all of the king's men were dead and the thief got away, and keep the sword for themselves. If the player sided with the thief, then he or she can also choose to lie, or perhaps even tell the king the truth (I guess it would depend on your character's station in the game, whether or not you could just defy a king).

By that same note, even if the quest does remain small, with the NPC named "Thief" and the limited options/outcomes, perhaps by doing this quest, later on in the game the king shows up in the main story and offers you support in some way. This, too, would make the quest more than just a mere "fetch quest."

Origins was full of these types of side quests. Inquisition doesn't seem to have any.

I don't know what game you played but not even the main quests in DAO had this. The sacred ashes quest was literally one long fetch quests that ended in well whateves once Eamon got better.

[Han Master]

Look at it this way, at least it kills time.

[AWTEW]

Look at it this way, at least it kills time.

ehich is fine if you have time to kill.

[Tsunami Chef]

I don't know what game you played but not even the main quests in DAO had this. The sacred ashes quest was literally one long fetch quests that ended in well whateves once Eamon got better.

I know...people have memories of Origin that never even existed..it's like nostalgia has mixed with their actual experience and created a mythical orgasmic game. If you let one of these people describe origins to someone who has never heard of the series and then that person bought the game...they wouldn't be able to tell they were the same game.

[Quaddis]

Crazy nagisters and old oaks fight about achorn fit that desription

[Snazzy]

You must disabuse yourself of the notion that features are added to "stretch game length". That, quite simply, doesn't happen.

 

If there are quests and missions and features added to the game, it's because the devs believe it makes the game more enjoyable for a significant chunk of their target players. Just because you don't happen to enjoy them doesn't mean they're added to increase game length.

 

A lot of the side content also promotes other things, such as channeling players to certain areas, leading them to explore bits of the map they otherwise might not have (and therefore discover some POIs they build in).

 

I'm doing the Hissing Wastes right now, and the whole map is chock full of these things, and there's a purpose behind it all. It's really impressive.

 

This is literally the most naive post I've ever read. 

 

Either A) The devs are dumb as hell and don't understand game design at a fundamental level to realize that these aren't game mechanics, only abstract "fetching and gathering" to extend the life of the game

 

or 

 

The devs do understand this and realize that to make up for their lack of good content and combat, they had to pad it out with hundreds of hours of boring fetch quests, resource gathering, and crafting to expand the game to a scope that made it appear impressive.

 

Honestly, the OP hit the nail on the head with this game. 

[Viidicus]

Most of you are missing the point and comparing the games for merits that most think are already alright.

Most of the hate is that it's not a cRPG and has been stripped down to a basic and poor aRPG.

The boring fetch quests are boring because of the limit dialog and the way it's been set up.

Dao had fetch quests but it didn't feel like it as you had extensive conversations with the npcs with your companions often giving their opinions too, the quests were also not frustrating as they were easily done while doing the main quest.

Dai is pretty much.
You: hello
Npc: I have problem X y z
You: bye
*quest added.

[Maverick827]

I don't know what game you played but not even the main quests in DAO had this. The sacred ashes quest was literally one long fetch quests that ended in well whateves once Eamon got better.

 

You can't be serious.  

 

The Sacred Ashes quest starts with you looking into the mysterious disappearance of Brother Genitivi.  There's this really unnerving aura around the entire quest as you learn more about him.  The innkeeper at Lake Calenhad is jumpy, and then you get ambushed by cultists.  When you go to Genitivi's house, you meet Weylon, who is acting really suspicious.  You eventually discover the body of the real Weylon in a back room.  Creepy.

 

Then you go to Haven.  Really, this entire part of the quest is really well done.  There's very little combat, but you're definitely on edge the entire time.  All of the townspeople say creepy things and then you start finding body parts and blood altars, and then everyone attacks you.  Eventually you find Brother Genitivi and you get some pretty cool characterization choices regarding whether or not you let him go to the temple with you (truly, all throughout this quest so far have been a lot of cool intimidate/persuade options).

 

When you finally get to the temple, yeah, for a while it's just a regular dungeon.  But the story picks back up again when you meet Kolgrim, who gives you an offer to become a Reaver by defiling the Urn.  Which, by the way, can cause two companions to attack you.

 

Another great part of the quest is speaking to The Guardian.  You get all sorts of interesting philosophical dialog choices here.  There are riddles to answer, the game makes references to your character's origin.  There was even a puzzle!  It was great.

 

So yeah, I don't know what game you played, but the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest is not a fetch quest.  It's a very engaging quest of its own that has implications on your character, your companions, and the main plot (e.g., healing Arl Eamon).  Like my post said, just because you "fetch" something does not mean the quest is a "fetch quest."

[bateluer]

Disclaimer, I didn't read the previous 11 pages. But 55 hours into the game, I agree with the original post 100%. Of my 55 hours into the game, probably 40 are me wandering around in various zones collecting things or fetching things. Every single quest not related to the main plot is either a collection/fetch quest, or worse, a generic map pin mission with a timer. Unlike DAO, KOTOR, Mass Effect, and even DA2, none of these side quests are going to stick in your memory a few years from now. You're not going to be able to reminiscence with your friends about that one time you totally collected 10 units of paragon's luster. 

 

I don't know what Bioware did with all their writers, but yeesh, hire some back. Or at least devote some effort into the side quests. Just because the world is large and open-ish doesn't mean you need to fill it with mindless grind. 

[In Exile]

Crazy nagisters and old oaks fight about achorn fit that desription

 

The old oak had a lot of variety - that's absolutely true. But it was a great sidequest because it was such a dramatic departure from DA:O design. Not in the sense that it had two outcomes - because it only really did have two outcomes - but because you could come across it and trigger it in different ways. You didn't have to meet the old oak first (as I recall).

 

Bioware's biggest problem is incredibly linear quest design with a branched ending, and that's almost every quest in DA:O. The only other major example is the Orzammar portion of the anvil quest before it becomes a linear slog through the Deep Roads. 

[In Exile]

You can't be serious.  

 

The Sacred Ashes quest starts with you looking into the mysterious disappearance of Brother Genitivi.  There's this really unnerving aura around the entire quest as you learn more about him.  The innkeeper at Lake Calenhad is jumpy, and then you get ambushed by cultists.  When you go to Genitivi's house, you meet Weylon, who is acting really suspicious.  You eventually discover the body of the real Weylon in a back room.  Creepy.

 

Then you go to Haven.  Really, this entire part of the quest is really well done.  There's very little combat, but you're definitely on edge the entire time.  All of the townspeople say creepy things and then you start finding body parts and blood altars, and then everyone attacks you.  Eventually you find Brother Genitivi and you get some pretty cool characterization choices regarding whether or not you let him go to the temple with you (truly, all throughout this quest so far have been a lot of cool intimidate/persuade options).

 

When you finally get to the temple, yeah, for a while it's just a regular dungeon.  But the story picks back up again when you meet Kolgrim, who gives you an offer to become a Reaver by defiling the Urn.  Which, by the way, can cause two companions to attack you.

 

Another great part of the quest is speaking to The Guardian.  You get all sorts of interesting philosophical dialog choices here.  There are riddles to answer, the game makes references to your character's origin.  There was even a puzzle!  It was great.

 

So yeah, I don't know what game you played, but the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest is not a fetch quest.  It's a very engaging quest of its own that has implications on your character, your companions, and the main plot (e.g., healing Arl Eamon).  Like my post said, just because you "fetch" something does not mean the quest is a "fetch quest."

 

The Urn quest is one of the worst quests in DA:O. You get a gold star for enjoying it, but your subjective rhetoric like "wonderful atmosphere" is just that. 

 

The Urn quest is incredibly linear, with one major decision branch and companion quest triggers at a specific point. 

 

The quest always starts the same way: you get told in no uncertain terms that you have to get and fetch the ashes. You then begin your wild goose chase in Denerim. And the entire quest is literally a line until you to that moment, besides the backtracking with Weylon. 

 

You only get to Lake Calenhad (a) if you don't have any speech or cunning with Weylon (and let's say that for some reason someone doesn't) and ( don't explore every inch of that house to loot everything that isn't bolted down to discover the corpse. But pretending that you don't do any of that, you then get to backtrack to Lake Calenhad before you go back to Denerim to confront Weylon. 

 

You get Haven, and it's literally a straight line up a hill to a church. You get to the temple, and it's a straight line through the temple - though you do have to backtrack a bit and go through a bunch of rooms to open up the temple. You get through the temple and it's a line to Kolgrim. 

 

At this point, you have the same choice you always get in DA:O - side with the "evil" guy (or in this case the insane unhygienic hermit living in a cave) or the "good" guy (in this case the spirit/demon whatever in the urn, which you technically don't know about). If you side with the "evil" guy, some of your companions attack.

 

You then get the ashes - regardless who you side with nothing changes in the main plot - and then everyone totally forgets you found the literal ashes of the Jesus-equivalent of Thedas. You showed up with the Holy Grail and everyone just shrugged their soldiers, thanked you for the 50 elfroot, and the game went on like none of that ever happened. 

 

This is a fetch quest. There's lots of dialogue as part of the fetch quest. And you get to side with two different people in the mid-to-late part of the fetch quest (depending on what you count Kolgrim) but it's nothing more than an extended fetch quest. 

 

The problem with DA:I's quest isn't that they're fetch quests. It's that they're **** fetch quests.