72 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Here's something I don't like about darkspawn and the people who talk about em. It comes down to a choice between the Putty Patrol in DAO, or the Goblins from Lord of the Rings. Either one being faceless badguys who exist solely for your to chop them apart. In DAO they looked completely generic with their physical apperance making no sense, (Seriously, Genloks=Green Goblins, Hurloks=Pizza the Hutts, Shrieks=Skeleton Werewolfs, just why?, Qunari=Ogres, why are they purple?).

 

In DA2, they at least looked unique, but that's about it cause they still looked dumb. But at least they all looked like they belonged to the same breed of plague carrying monster. There's nothing about them that has, at any point, been either scary or intimidating or good aesthetics. Period. Anyone who thinks there was is lying to themselves because they desperately want to cling to the memory of happier times in their life that Dragon Age Origins represents. That or these are the kinds of people that showing them the canon fodder from power rangers would make them crawl into a corner and weep with terror.

 

Sounds mean, but its the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts. Now lets instead of bickering between a melted pizza and a twitchy junkie, try and make bioware make an actually good looking darkspawn for once.

[Korva]

I agree but I'm not sure on how to fix it. It's easy to just scrap the Blight sickness, so let's go the other way. How would you implement it into the game, specifically regarding all party members other than Alistair?

 

For Origins, more Warden party members, ideally one from each class. Finding them could be an early priority, and/or you could end up with very limited resources for a Joining and the knowledge to use it some time into the game. Make it very clear that everyone else (golems aside) can sicken and die if you don't play them smart and protect them: use of terrain/elevation, magical shields/traps/walls, ranged attacks only. That way a player has no one but themselves to blame if they think it's a good idea to take non-Wardens, including their precious "romance option", into the Deep Roads and get them wiped out. It'd have added more urgency to play well and tactically, which isn't a bad thing (and I say that as someone for whom combat is usually a tertiary concern in RPGs). Don't make it a case of "if a character takes 1 hp of damage in melee from a darkspawn they're doomed", that'd be frustratingly punishing, but increase the odds with the severity of the injury.

 

Admittedly, it wouldn't be the same game story-wise, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been a compelling alternative version.

 

For Inquisition, similar use of terrain, magic etc. -- and definitely a weapon switch option and the ability for every class to use a ranged weapon so warriors aren't totally screwed. Also, we have an army at our command. Use it. Send squads of mages and archers to comb the infected areas, protected by whatever heavily armed veterans we can find. Alternatively or additionally, kiss some dwarven ass in return for a little help from the Legion of the Dead. We can "win Orzammar's friendship" as it is, but it's just influence -- seeing an actual in-game representation of that influence would've been neat. We don't need to kill everything ourselves.

[Natureguy85]

I remember what a plot twist it was to get Blood Magic from a demon in DAO

Spoiler

(poor Connor)

or the Reaver specialization. Then Awakenings was released, and you could pick them up from a book.

 

How was it a plot twist? Isn't that perfectly in line with the lore? Anyway, I agree on the books cheapening it.

 

Darkspawn here and there is normal. But there is no blight so they have no reason to come out.

 

Yet another person misses what the thread is about.

 

 

Lore usually wins, but I sure do miss being able to play a blood mage. It never made any sense for the protagonist to be a blood mage, but it was still fun to work out in your own mind how you got away with it. And it was really fun to play.

 

Now my mage Hawke keeps whining about blood magic, and I'm like YOU WERE A BLOOD MAGE! Hypocrite.

 

Why didn't it make sense? It could certainly fit in DA2 since we really build Hawke from the ground up.

[Natureguy85]

Here's something I don't like about darkspawn and the people who talk about em. It comes down to a choice between the Putty Patrol in DAO, or the Goblins from Lord of the Rings. Either one being faceless badguys who exist solely for your to chop them apart. In DAO they looked completely generic with their physical apperance making no sense, (Seriously, Genloks=Green Goblins, Hurloks=Pizza the Hutts, Shrieks=Skeleton Werewolfs, just why?, Qunari=Ogres, why are they purple?).

 

In DA2, they at least looked unique, but that's about it cause they still looked dumb. But at least they all looked like they belonged to the same breed of plague carrying monster. There's nothing about them that has, at any point, been either scary or intimidating or good aesthetics. Period. Anyone who thinks there was is lying to themselves because they desperately want to cling to the memory of happier times in their life that Dragon Age Origins represents. That or these are the kinds of people that showing them the canon fodder from power rangers would make them crawl into a corner and weep with terror.

 

Sounds mean, but its the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts. Now lets instead of bickering between a melted pizza and a twitchy junkie, try and make bioware make an actually good looking darkspawn for once.

 

You're right that they were pretty generic monster men in Origins, but I didn't think they looked silly and they at least looked different than people. I haven't seen how they look in Inquisition, but the OP is complaining that they now look like people in silly hats.

[HeroxMatt]

For Origins, more Warden party members, ideally one from each class. Finding them could be an early priority, and/or you could end up with very limited resources for a Joining and the knowledge to use it some time into the game. Make it very clear that everyone else (golems aside) can sicken and die if you don't play them smart and protect them: use of terrain/elevation, magical shields/traps/walls, ranged attacks only. That way a player has no one but themselves to blame if they think it's a good idea to take non-Wardens, including their precious "romance option", into the Deep Roads and get them wiped out. It'd have added more urgency to play well and tactically, which isn't a bad thing (and I say that as someone for whom combat is usually a tertiary concern in RPGs). Don't make it a case of "if a character takes 1 hp of damage in melee from a darkspawn they're doomed", that'd be frustratingly punishing, but increase the odds with the severity of the injury.

 

Admittedly, it wouldn't be the same game story-wise, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been a compelling alternative version.

 

For Inquisition, similar use of terrain, magic etc. -- and definitely a weapon switch option and the ability for every class to use a ranged weapon so warriors aren't totally screwed. Also, we have an army at our command. Use it. Send squads of mages and archers to comb the infected areas, protected by whatever heavily armed veterans we can find. Alternatively or additionally, kiss some dwarven ass in return for a little help from the Legion of the Dead. We can "win Orzammar's friendship" as it is, but it's just influence -- seeing an actual in-game representation of that influence would've been neat. We don't need to kill everything ourselves.

 

They could have an "Aura of Pain" that inflicts Poison Damage over time, too. Same kind of deal with using ranged/terrain. Have persisting injuries like in DA:O that required a specific crafting type of Injury Kit that has rare resources the Wardens/Inquisition/whatever have access to.

 

I didn't notice the way Darkspawn looked in this game, aside from the hats. It would've been cool to see more design and thought put into them, though. At least give them different armour or different looking weapons? Shadow of Mordor made their orcs look so good, I don't see why Bioware couldn't put even half as much effort into some of their monsters.

[Natureguy85]

They could have an "Aura of Pain" that inflicts Poison Damage over time, too. Same kind of deal with using ranged/terrain. Have persisting injuries like in DA:O that required a specific crafting type of Injury Kit that has rare resources the Wardens/Inquisition/whatever have access to.

 

I didn't notice the way Darkspawn looked in this game, aside from the hats. It would've been cool to see more design and thought put into them, though. At least give them different armour or different looking weapons? Shadow of Mordor made their orcs look so good, I don't see why Bioware couldn't put even half as much effort into some of their monsters.

 

Not that it precludes Bioware from having done so, but Mordor had to do that. The Nemesis system and engaging these unique orcs is what makes that game special.

[HeroxMatt]

That's true and I understand the importance of the orcs and the system used in that game vs. the importance of darkspawn in Inquisition (as opposed to DA:O). Still, it isn't just the darkspawn that have un-inspired artistic design, though theirs is the most obvious as they have a direct comparison between each game. If they weren't Venatori or Red Templars, everything else looked kind of similar.

[Cainhurst Crow]

You're right that they were pretty generic monster men in Origins, but I didn't think they looked silly and they at least looked different than people. I haven't seen how they look in Inquisition, but the OP is complaining that they now look like people in silly hats.

 

I know some people think this is scary.

 

 

 

But all I see is this,

 

[Natureguy85]

I know some people think this is scary.

 

 

 

But all I see is this,

 

 

That's pretty scary!

[Joccaren]

I know some people think this is scary.

 

 

 

But all I see is this,

 

-snip 'cause huge image-

Maybe, but I find that's partially a graphics issue. Imagine, if instead of looking like smoosh, you could see the old, crinkly, peeling skin, the sharp fangs, the brain sitting in its head. It'd look a lot more disgusting, and less like Pizza the hut.

 

 

Here's something I don't like about darkspawn and the people who talk about em. It comes down to a choice between the Putty Patrol in DAO, or the Goblins from Lord of the Rings. Either one being faceless badguys who exist solely for your to chop them apart. In DAO they looked completely generic with their physical apperance making no sense, (Seriously, Genloks=Green Goblins, Hurloks=Pizza the Hutts, Shrieks=Skeleton Werewolfs, just why?, Qunari=Ogres, why are they purple?).

 

In DA2, they at least looked unique, but that's about it cause they still looked dumb. But at least they all looked like they belonged to the same breed of plague carrying monster. There's nothing about them that has, at any point, been either scary or intimidating or good aesthetics. Period. Anyone who thinks there was is lying to themselves because they desperately want to cling to the memory of happier times in their life that Dragon Age Origins represents. That or these are the kinds of people that showing them the canon fodder from power rangers would make them crawl into a corner and weep with terror.

 

Sounds mean, but its the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts. Now lets instead of bickering between a melted pizza and a twitchy junkie, try and make bioware make an actually good looking darkspawn for once.

I actually think the Darkspawn in Origins were a bit better actually. They didn't just look like sick people. Oh no, sick people, look out, they're going to cough us to death. You could tell this plague seriously fucked you up. Your skin utterly changed hue, body features began morphing, you began to decay as well - and that's just the start of what you can tell. It actually gave some weight to the Darkspawn taint, as it wasn't just turning into a ghoul - the sick people we could see. If you were caught and transformed into a darkspawn... Yeah, you were getting majorly fucked up. They were still recognisable as their races - Dwarfs the short and stocky ones, humans the pretty average ones, elves the thin and lithe ones, qunari the giants with horns - but they were obviously deformed.

 

DA2 didn't make them look unique. They just looked like textbook anime enemies I swear I've seen them as 'generic scary enemy' in half the anime I watch, but they were better animated and didn't look like they were doing a comedy routine, unlike in DA2. Hell, the entire game tried to adopt an anime aesthetic near as I could tell, and it just looked retarded. Reading another thread about the Envy demon turning into you... Bioware really have been watching too much anime. Step back from the fullmetal alchemist and go more Tolkien. I love anime, but you gotta leave the Japanese to do that, and at the very least keep your games consistent.

 

Ignoring the good aesthetics part of it, as aesthetics is 100% subjective - you will find people who hate what you love, and love what you hate - I'm really struggling to see what you think would make them look the part of 'scary'. Really, I don't think ANYTHING looks scary if you look at it in the daylight. I could get picture after picture of horror characters from movies, and point out how they just look stupid rather than scary, but you can do that yourself. The other option, which most films seem to try and use to bolster their 'horror' rating, but really has nothing to do with horror, is to use excessive gore. People's limbs getting cut off, blood flying everywhere, chest bursters. Its not scary. Its disgusting, but its not scary. ****** surgeons go through that on a day to day basis.

What makes things scary is less their own aesthetic, and more the atmosphere. You need the music, the sounds, the lighting, and a setup that shocks the view/player. Kind of like in some video I saw it mentioned for a game's design, they had fires be a safe area for most of the game. No scary enemies would show up near the light of the fire, so they trained players to think they were safe. About halfway through, after a stressful battle, the player would get to a fire and relax a little to wind down from the fight. Then they'd run into enemies and go 'oh ****', as what they expected to happen wasn't what did happen. Poorly explained by me, but you should at least get the theory from that. There is no design for a character you can make that'll make it look scary. Its all about the atmosphere surrounding that character. I mean, slenderman and amnesia are known as 'scary' games. You look at the character designs and tell me if they look scary, or comical. Comical is the answer. Its the whole atmosphere that builds them to be scary.

 

And with that, I don't see any enemy in Dragon Age ever being truly scary. Why? Its not a horror game. Its not like Dead Space, which coincidentally also isn't that scary as its too predicatable. "Oh look, a vent. I wonder what's going to happen when I walk near it. Certainly not some enemy will jump out". It does, however, work reasonably effectively with its atmosphere to feel creepy at least. But that's not Dragon Age. Dragon Age is an adventure. We play it to play Lord of the Rings, not The Ring. For this, I think the Darkspawn need to be made to look Intimidating, and a little creepy, more than 'scary'. Dragon Age Origins accomplished that best. You saw an Ogre, and it looked intimidating. It looked strong. Genlocks, whilst small, also looked somewhat intimidating, largely due to their facial expressions in cutscenes conveniently enough. Hurlocks... That Hurlock war cry in the Ostagar cinematic, that's all. Shrieks looked dangerous, and creepy. In DA2, they looked like jokes. In Inquisition, they're barely differentiable from normal bandits. Of the lot DA:O had it best, updating the graphics so they looked less like blobs of smudge, and more like actual decaying and deformed creatures, and I think we'd be well on our way to having decent darkspawn. Would they be 'origibals'? Maybe not, but I don't see why that matters. Originality for the sake of originality is one of the worst crimes you can commit in design. You end up with things looking stupid, because you tried to be orijinelz. Memes, tropes, and 'generic' designs exist for a reason. They work. They're identifiable, they're reliable, and whilst they get no points for being 0|21G1|\|@75, they do get points for actually being what they're trying to be.

Additionally, if we're talking originality, Dragon Age is hardly a bastion of it to begin with. We have Undead [Generic as ****, no matter the backstory you give them], Tolkien Dwarves and Tolkien Elve's [Only the very specifics of each is different], we have demons named after sins [Oh so original. Its not like 90% of anime uses that trope, let alone other media], we have the 'spirit world', also known as the fade, which is also conveniently mixed in with heaven. Well, not like that story hasn't been told for the last 2000 years. We've got mages, which themselves are generic, but also in a medieval setting, which is the epitome of generic for fantasy, we have stereotypical Western Dragons, we have the generic RPG game class set - warrior, rogue, mage - I don't think I need to go on. Dragon Age is Dragon Age, and those who love the game, love it for what it is. Its a homage to tolkienesque fantasy and RPGs, and a well made one. It doesn't need to be 'original', especially seeing as when it tries to be it often does more harm than good, largely because its trying to be original for the sake of being original.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Maybe, but I find that's partially a graphics issue. Imagine, if instead of looking like smoosh, you could see the old, crinkly, peeling skin, the sharp fangs, the brain sitting in its head. It'd look a lot more disgusting, and less like Pizza the hut.

 

 

What if darkspawn had no skin at all, and were just muscle looking slenderman proportioned figures? And had spider legs as well, since we're just making up what they look like now instead of talking about what they actually looked like in the game? The thing where we actually see, learn, and experienced what it was like to fight darkspawn, and where all our information of them comes from?

[herkles]

question: should non-grey warden companions be perma killable if you fight to many darkspawn with them?

[Elfyoth]

I like the Darkspawn from DAO more than the design from DA2 and DAI, they looked more fearsome and more cool, than mere bandtis that are simply ugly. 

[Silcron]

Having seen the concept art for dark spawn (it's in Matt Rhodes blog I think, just google his name) it looks like a horrible sickness, and the new versions darkspawn are closer to that art, what I miss is genlocks for example, the redesign in Legacy was pretty cool but all we see is Hurlocks , statistically speaking we should be seeing more genlocks than anything else.

But in the end they cut that. Why put other types of darkspawn that would require specific mechanics and attack set when you can just use hurlocks as reskinned human mobs?

What I looked of their redesign, at least for genlocks is that they look less like their counteparts and more like their own thing, which is what they are. They are darkspawn, not ghouls. If anything I would like that they went for the DAO design for ghouls.

[Elfyoth]

The redesign genlocks remind me of mini Ogres

[CrimsonArgie]

Somewhere deep underground? 

It's not a Blight, Darkspawn are rare.

 

People in Farelden before the Fifth Blight thought that Darkspawn were a myth.

 

Yes, but they just got rid of the shrieks and gave their sounds to ghouls. The first time I heard them I thought that there was a shriek in stealth running around.

[Vortex13]

It's not the appearance of the Darkspawn that I have a real issue with. While I do prefer the Darkspawn designs from DA:O/DA:A, the overall appearance of something is secondary to the atmosphere surrounding it (IMO).

 

For example, I was terrified of the 'Nothing' from the Never Ending Story and it was just a cloud effect, so how something appears is really subservient to how it is portrayed in the setting.

 

 

The Darkspawn in DA:I are rather 'mundane' when compared to their counterparts in DA:O/DA:A and in DA 2:Legacy. I know that there is no Blight to speak of in this game, but you would think that creatures that are universally reviled and feared across all of Thedas would have more impact than standard, run-of-the-mill bandits when combating them and encountering them. 

 

 

What's really missing from the Darkspawn is their alien nature. I get that working in a "Taint" feature would require more work than is warranted for a minor faction; in terms of DA:I's plot; but why get rid of all the 'alien' elements, the body horror present in the Darkspawn lifecycle, etc?

 

• Darkspawn are not just sick humans, elves, dwarves, or qunari. Ghouls are infected people, its true, but the actual Darkspawn are an entirely separate species; a species that can breed with any other on Thedas to create new Darkspawn strains. The creation of Broodmothers, the Darkspawn "Children"; they are more than a plague infecting people.

 

• They are intelligent beings even without the unifying song of an Archdemon. The lower level grunts might have more of a cunning animal-like intellect, but emissaries, and Alphas are perfectly capable of speaking to the other races of Thedas. Does anyone remember fighting common Hurlocks in DA:O? The deep guttural laugh they would use fit with their character perfectly.

 

 

• Darkspawn are functionally immortal thanks to the Taint, they don't need to eat, or sleep, and old age will only make them more powerful. Whenever Darkspawn make it to the surface, you are quite possibly dealing with an ancient eldritch abomination from the underworld.   

 

 

 

What's sad is that the codex entry for the Hurlock Alpha has the perfect Darkspawn vibe to it; the creepy 'otherness' of the Hurlock's interaction with its jailers, the damning result of the people who tried to subdue it; all of the entry's description worked to paint this picture of a very dangerous and unnervingly intelligent 'other' race that lived just underfoot. Yet, when the player engages the Hurlock Alpha, its no different than fighting a Venotari Brute, or Bandit Heavy.

 

 

There is no sense of dread when fighting the Darkspawn in DA:I, indeed the atmosphere that the first two games established concerning the Darkspawn is entirely absent, and that is not even counting the Awakened Darkspawn.

[ent1]

How was it a plot twist? Isn't that perfectly in line with the lore? Anyway, I agree on the books cheapening it.

 

 

Yet another person misses what the thread is about.

 

 

 

Why didn't it make sense? It could certainly fit in DA2 since we really build Hawke from the ground up.

 

It's not that being a blood mage did not make sense. It's that the world did not react to you being a blood mage in a way that made sense.

 

Throughout DA's lore, blood mages are the most evil thing in the universe. Well, maybe not the MOST evil, but really evil. Yet the protagonist(s) get away with it without anyone blinking an eye.

 

Ironically, the only somewhat sympathetic reference to blood magic comes in DA:I

Spoiler

in a conversation a mage inquisitor has with Solas

[BlueElf2]

I just can't get past the hats. Hurlock archers wear silly hats...

 

WHY, BIOWARE???

I have yet to find a hat that isn't silly in any Dragon Age game. They just like silly hats for some reason.

[Realmzmaster]

For Origins, more Warden party members, ideally one from each class. Finding them could be an early priority, and/or you could end up with very limited resources for a Joining and the knowledge to use it some time into the game. Make it very clear that everyone else (golems aside) can sicken and die if you don't play them smart and protect them: use of terrain/elevation, magical shields/traps/walls, ranged attacks only. That way a player has no one but themselves to blame if they think it's a good idea to take non-Wardens, including their precious "romance option", into the Deep Roads and get them wiped out. It'd have added more urgency to play well and tactically, which isn't a bad thing (and I say that as someone for whom combat is usually a tertiary concern in RPGs). Don't make it a case of "if a character takes 1 hp of damage in melee from a darkspawn they're doomed", that'd be frustratingly punishing, but increase the odds with the severity of the injury.

 

Admittedly, it wouldn't be the same game story-wise, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been a compelling alternative version.

 

For Inquisition, similar use of terrain, magic etc. -- and definitely a weapon switch option and the ability for every class to use a ranged weapon so warriors aren't totally screwed. Also, we have an army at our command. Use it. Send squads of mages and archers to comb the infected areas, protected by whatever heavily armed veterans we can find. Alternatively or additionally, kiss some dwarven ass in return for a little help from the Legion of the Dead. We can "win Orzammar's friendship" as it is, but it's just influence -- seeing an actual in-game representation of that influence would've been neat. We don't need to kill everything ourselves.

 

The problem is that darkspawn can occur in tunnels or structures that have an underground connection. The party would not know that until the darkspawn is encountered. The only way to avoid that is to have Bioware telegraph that there are darkspawn in the area. Your suggestion would basically limit who could be in the party.  Gameplay wise that is big and would probably cause more angst than it is worth. Gameplay will usually trump lore for many gamers. Much like being unable to play a mage in DA2 or having to have a separate story for Hawke as a mage in DA2. If gamers were not allowed to play a mage you could imagine the complaints.

 

Your suggestion would also require more micromanagement that some gamers do not like. Bioware would have to write the story to take into account the permadeath of companions. Quite a few gamers do not like permadeath.

[garrusfan1]

That was one thing that pissed me off in DA2. The darkspawn went from creepy,scary,horrifying in DAO to those weird walking and stupid looking things in DA2

[Natureguy85]

What if darkspawn had no skin at all, and were just muscle looking slenderman proportioned figures? And had spider legs as well, since we're just making up what they look like now instead of talking about what they actually looked like in the game? The thing where we actually see, learn, and experienced what it was like to fight darkspawn, and where all our information of them comes from?

What are you talking about? He was just talking about how they would look with improved graphical fidelity. Although I think the comment about the brain showing is based only on the wrinkly head in the one picture because I don't remember seeing any with exposed brains.

[TheLastArchivist]

Maybe this more human-like appearance was done on purpose. I'll go into some wild speculation below:

 

What if the darkspawn are changing somehow? Learning to be more like the people in the Surface and less like animals?

 

Wasn't the Architect supposed to render them more rational and capable of speech after his experiments?

 

And even if he's dead, what if the taint is undergoing a natural process where it's becoming weaker and weaker? Wouldn't nature start fighting it and finding a way to purge it from any living being's system? What if the darkspawn are slowly developing antibodies against the corruption?

 

 

OR it could be they indeed were not meant to look more human and this was just a mistake.