150 réponses à ce sujet

[Bekkael]

If they had spent a lot more time on fleshing out the story better, and making our choices matter more, this game would've been diamonds. I mean they're in the opposite situation the Mass Effect team was for ME3, where they only had two years. But no, instead they wasted the time and resources they had on dilly dallying. It's actual quiet maddening when you think about it.

 

I'm not saying side content and exploration is a bad thing. Oh god no! Those two things are great. But it's like they heard our complaints about DA2, and then fixed it by going overboard.

 

A jack of all trades often becomes master of none, and I don't think you get the open world AND a wonderful, tightly crafted story at the same time. The storytelling appears to have been sacrificed on the altar of Skyrim envy and mimicry.

 

I would say that it seems instead of taking feedback and modifying the things people complain about, they throw the baby out with the bathwater and go completely overboard with big changes, including "fixing" things that weren't broken and ripping out beloved features. Instead of having a visionary way of crafting games, BioWare seems to be more reactionary in nature over the past few years. This saddens me.

[Stelae]

Am I the only one who was (while a little underwhelmed by the ending) relieved that it didn't end in Yet Another Siege?  I mean, we had it in DA: Awakenings, we had it in NWN2, we had it at Haven.  There are other ways to end a story.  Don't misunderstand -- I think the ending we got was a bit watery, and I think the not-a-siege ending would have been more interesting if they had more consciously built up the "ready your keep for an epic battle" talk, only to veer hard to port and have Cory's last move take you utterly by surprise.  The hours of signposting, and the fact that there's no real urgency to beating Cory to the magic drinking fountain detract from the ending, but at least it's an attempt at something different.

 

Having to suspend disbelief enough to go "oh yeah, a huge army has traipsed through miles of clearly visible wilderness to lay siege to my fortress, even though Sandal could have seen it coming, and Leliana's work-experience lass could have thwarted them as they marched, and now I'm really glad I spent the money on a barracks instead of a reflecting pool" would have just been more of the same. 

 

That said, the article made some very good points about how nothing you did mattered -- my first play through was a speed-run, because I was avoiding spoilers.  I didn't even go to the Hissing Wastes.  The minute I had enough power, I high-tailed it to the final battle. I didn't find Samson's weakness so presumably either his armour was useless all along, or there were no in-game benefits to disabling it, and I still had no trouble in the final fight at the well. 

[renfrees]

I'd appreciate side content and all the extra areas more, if they were connected to the story and development of Inquisition (and not in table missions). As of now - what's the point of Hissing Wastes? Emerald Graves? Basically any other area besides Val Royeuax and Crestwood+Western Approach? What's the reason for the Inquisitor to go to any of these, except to sate their curiosity? Sure, they add to the world of Thedas, but what do they do for presented story? I remember older Bioware games, where every area had a meaning besides exploration, and it makes me frustrated. 

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

So when Mike Laidlaw said the bad guys/demons could win at that QA panel... he probably meant the game over screens with their descriptions, not an actual bad ending scenario?

If that is not purposely deceiving your customers then I dont know what it.

[Jackal19851111]

I quite enjoyed the ending, just not the climax

[DarkSpiral]

I'd appreciate side content and all the extra areas more, if they were connected to the story and development of Inquisition (and not in table missions). As of now - what's the point of Hissing Wastes? Emerald Graves? Basically any other area besides Val Royeuax and Crestwood+Western Approach? What's the reason for the Inquisitor to go to any of these, except to sate their curiosity? Sure, they add to the world of Thedas, but what do they do for presented story? I remember older Bioware games, where every area had a meaning besides exploration, and it makes me frustrated. 

The point?  Discovering the smaller stories, the bits of lore, the tales of Paragons and elven champions dead and forgotten by the rest of the world.  The thrill of discovery, and the pleasure of adding to the bits and pieces of information we've collected in previous games!

 

Perhaps you think I'm being a smartalec, but I'm completely serious.  That's what those zones are for.  That, and phat lewts.

[robertthebard]

Nope, that's cool. I appreciate the lesson in humility. You're still the only ones within a few week's ride that can do anything and Denerim will fall if you don't. It feels much more urgent than DAI ever does to me. At no time after Haven do I feel Cory has a chance.

Really? Because I went straight from Lothering to Denerim, did all the side quests that were open, got leads on the Urn, and then went to Haven, and did the Urn quest. Guess what. In all that time, the Blight never swallowed Lothering. Where is that sense of urgency? You made it up, didn't you. You carry Origins around with you, looking at it through these rose colored glasses that make it look so perfect. I was here at release. I was on the forums reading, and maybe even participating in the "Spiritual Successor to Baldur's Gate" debates. I was here for the "the last fight wasn't as epic as it could have been". I was here, and I love the game, but I'm not blinded by "I miss my Warden", or whatever it is that's making people think that a game that followed the exact same pattern is any worse, or better.

Guess what, Cory was kind of meh as an end boss. Why do you suppose that is? Because, if you spent any time on any of the maps that weren't directly involved in the main story, you depleted his resources. Every time you cleared a map, you depleted his resources. The only things you did that didn't directly affect him was closing breeches and companion quests. Everything else built up your Inquisition, to make it easier for you to continue to shoot his plans down in flames. This, despite the fact that you accidentally foiled his main plan, and if you hadn't, it would have been game over, because he succeeds. It doesn't matter if he'd become a God or not, the last time he went, he and his ilk released the Blights upon the world. Do you think it's going to be any better this time?

[renfrees]

The point?  Discovering the smaller stories, the bits of lore, the tales of Paragons and elven champions dead and forgotten by the rest of the world.  The thrill of discovery, and the pleasure of adding to the bits and pieces of information we've collected in previous games!

 

Perhaps you think I'm being a smartalec, but I'm completely serious.  That's what those zones are for.  That, and phat lewts.

I'm not sure if you read or understood my post, because you basically confirmed my complaints of most areas being meaningless to the story of Inquisition.

[Stelae]

Guess what, Cory was kind of meh as an end boss. Why do you suppose that is? Because, if you spent any time on any of the maps that weren't directly involved in the main story, you depleted his resources. Every time you cleared a map, you depleted his resources.

 

Yes, in story terms, you did.  But in game terms, you didn't.  The Cory you face at the end of a 15 hour speed run is in exactly the same shape as the Cory whose resources you spend countless hours diminishing.  There's no in-game payoff for the extra effort. 

 

Now, if you are in it for the story, that doesn't matter; --he's a bloviating villain whose ambition far outstrips his ability pretty much from day one.  And you beat him at the end because of course you do. But if you're in it because you expect your decisions in the game to have an impact on how the story plays out, and they don't, well, that's a fairly major issue.

[robertthebard]

I'm not sure if you read or understood my post, because you basically confirmed my complaints of most areas being meaningless to the story of Inquisition.

That word, I don't think it means what you think it means.

If it adds to our knowledge about the world, or stymies a plot by Cory, it's not meaningless. Quite the contrary, it has very definite meaning. BTW, since every map in the game has some kind of way to stymie Cory, either by adding to our power, such as the Hinterlands, or stopping what he's up to, like just about every where else, then it's not meaningless. Because it can be skipped and still get the same outcome doesn't make it meaningless, it just means that there's so much you can do that you don't have to do it all, this time, and next time, you'll have something "fresh" to do.

[TheLittleBird]

I agree.

 

With the article, I mean. In that the ending itself is anticlimactic and, quite frankly, underwhelming. Aside from the abruptness to it (as in, the game goes from a discussion at Skyhold into a loading screen which then jumps to Corypheus giving a speech to three Inquisition soldiers and the Inquisitor immediately arriving. There's no real set-up of the final confrontation here), it feels very much like a tacked-on boss fight. And an easy one at that. One can only feel sorry for Coryphenus when he calls upon Dumat to aid him. Now granted, that is an epic cutscene. Basically, the whole mission is a string of epic cutscenes with some easy fighting in-between. But let's get back to the point.

 

Which is that ever since playing Mass Effect 2, no BioWare game has close, at least for me, to creating the feeling that final mission gave me. Even in consequent playthroughs it never lost its touch, and kept being as nailbitingly intense as before. There's just so many variables there, so many choices that can impact it in such small ways, that there can be playthroughs when you think you have done everything right but forget one little detail. "Oh sh*t I chose Samara as the Fire Team Leader!"... but you do have to deal with the consequences. 

 

What I want is not just a game with choices, and lots of them. What I want is a game where choices (some, not all) are given to the player with the ending in mind... and by 'ending' here I mean the final mission, not the epilogue or that, albeit wonderfully represented, slideshow. I want my choices to impact the final mission in some way. Of course, this goes together with my companions and (possibly) recruited agents/forces to the Inquisition. Origins did this wonderfully by having those cosmetic changes to the Battle of Denerim. Nothing more than cosmetic, sure, but they were a nice addition and made the battle feel more unique, personalized by the player. Of course, a change like that could always be more. Maybe, if you were to have sided with the werewolves instead of the elves, some of them would go berserk and kill Shianni in the Alienage? Maybe Shianni then wouldn't die if you'd sided with the elves, but you'd have a weaker set of allies, for the wolves weren't there? Something like that. But that's a gamer's dream. It doesn't necessarily have to be in there. Just give me something, albeit as minor as a cosmetic change.

Instead, Doom Upon All the World doesn't really give us such a thing. Well... there is the slight variation when it comes to the dragons, of course. And during the final stage of the fight Coryphellus actually tries to bind Cole if you bring him along, just as he feared - which fails, of course. I wonder if it succeeds if you didn't do his personal quest, and what kind of consequence that has? Can anyone here give me the answer? Because if that were to have a different outcome for Cole, then that would be a great step in the right direction. Though now, the final mission only gives a slight hint of that.

 

But what if the final mission were to have given us different experiences based on our choices? I've heard many people say that what's being asked here is just another telling of the Battle of Denerim, or a slightly different Arbor Wilds with the Cory boss-fight right after it. It doesn't have to be. A change could be as simple as Krem catching a blow aimed at Bull with his weapon during a cutscene at the final battle, whereas if Krem had died Bull would receive a nasty cut... and maybe start the fight with a bit less health. Something so simple could be so effective. 

What we got here was a battle with little else around it. Sure, the sights were epic, the dragons fighting in the sky around us was great to look at, but never did I get a real sense of my Inquisition - the organization I had given shape throughout the story - backing me. And the companions all appearing at the end was nice... but am I supposed to guess at what they were doing? I mean, at the victory feast it's hinted at them fighting for us on the ground... but yeah, I'm not really sure what was being referred to.

 

Some people say it's all about the journey, not the end. And while that is a great sentiment, and one I can, at times, definitely get behind, you must not forget that the end can have an impact on the journey. And the journey must, at all times, be made with the end in mind. 

[DarkSpiral]

I'm not sure if you read or understood my post, because you basically confirmed my complaints of most areas being meaningless to the story of Inquisition.

It was more of an affirmation than an argument.

 

Although, your statement that older Bioware games were better because the side quests tied back into the main storyline is basically wrong.  How many of Baldur's Gate's side quests did that?  Any of the?  Aside from the phat lewts I mentioned above.

Or perhaps I should stick with DA:O.  Sure, there weren't optional areas.  Every place you went to had something to do with the main plot, but the overwhelming number of sidequests never tied in at all.  Did Dagna?  Did telling (or not telling) Athras about his wife?  How about calling up that demon on the ground floor of the Circle Tower, which gives you a powerful sword (phat lewts!)

 

Look, refrees, I get what you're saying.  There's more optional content in this game than there is plot-important content.  What I'm saying is that's been true of every game I've played by this company for over twenty years.  More, if you include Black Isle, which I do.

[robertthebard]

Yes, in story terms, you did.  But in game terms, you didn't.  The Cory you face at the end of a 15 hour speed run is in exactly the same shape as the Cory whose resources you spend countless hours diminishing.  There's no in-game payoff for the extra effort. 
 
Now, if you are in it for the story, that doesn't matter; --he's a bloviating villain whose ambition far outstrips his ability pretty much from day one.  And you beat him at the end because of course you do. But if you're in it because you expect your decisions in the game to have an impact on how the story plays out, and they don't, well, that's a fairly major issue.

Why would I play a story driven game for any other reason? Especially a SP story driven game. It's not like it's an MMO, and story is optional. Now, I have yet to do every single map, but I have done enough that I can tell myself that I have indeed impacted his plans, so that when he makes that claim, I can say, yep, I did that. I don't need the moustache twirling exposition some people seem to find so mandatory(which ultimately is never what they want, and so they then complain about getting it, instead of not, this is, after all, the BSN), just like I'm glad the Archdemon didn't try to chat at the end of Origins. When you trigger the final confrontation, that's what it is, the final confrontation. If you're left feeling like you didn't learn enough about the world, or the villains in it, you did that to you, not the game. There is lots of information available, barring "I didn't get to talk to Cory on every map, so meh".

[Bladenite1481]

That word, I don't think it means what you think it means.

If it adds to our knowledge about the world, or stymies a plot by Cory, it's not meaningless. Quite the contrary, it has very definite meaning. BTW, since every map in the game has some kind of way to stymie Cory, either by adding to our power, such as the Hinterlands, or stopping what he's up to, like just about every where else, then it's not meaningless. Because it can be skipped and still get the same outcome doesn't make it meaningless, it just means that there's so much you can do that you don't have to do it all, this time, and next time, you'll have something "fresh" to do.

I think it's pretty obvious that what he is saying is that all of those area contribute nothing to the main quest line, ie the Inquisitor's Path. Why would you save an area on a first play through if you know nothing about it? If you are RPing a war then shouldnt you want every tactical advantage available to you?

 

No it's not completely "meaningless" so let us give it a new word, they are bland, ineffectual bloated fetch quests that contribute nothing to the main plot save a few lines of dialogue when your Advisers say something like "Hey you know that metal shipment we were worried about? Well it turns out you already destroyed that mining camp, good job!" and would be much better served if the areas each had an actual quest to follow within them that was part of The Inquisitor's path. 

[robertthebard]

I think it's pretty obvious that what he is saying is that all of those area contribute nothing to the main quest line, ie the Inquisitor's Path. Why would you save an area on a first play through if you know nothing about it? If you are RPing a war then shouldnt you want every tactical advantage available to you?
 
No it's not completely "meaningless" so let us give it a new word, they are bland, ineffectual bloated fetch quests that contribute nothing to the main plot save a few lines of dialogue when your Advisers say something like "Hey you know that metal shipment we were worried about? Well it turns out you already destroyed that mining camp, good job!" and would be much better served if the areas each had an actual quest to follow within them that was part of The Inquisitor's path.

So your idea of "every tactical advantage" is to ignore the majority of the affected areas? Won't getting more agents to spy on what the big bad's doing add to your tactical advantage? Or, are we using the hotbar limitation definition of tactical advantage? You know, less is more?

[Bladenite1481]

So your idea of "every tactical advantage" is to ignore the majority of the affected areas? Won't getting more agents to spy on what the big bad's doing add to your tactical advantage? Or, are we using the hotbar limitation definition of tactical advantage? You know, less is more?

Nope, I think you should explore every area. However most of those areas are huge sprawling pieces of boring fetch quests that I can't stand to replay and has stopped me from even wanting to pick up the game again. There are good intentions in all of them..but the execution is horrible. 

 

With that, I proposed that a much better way to do it is to put an actual Inq Path quest within each area. Even if its small, it could take you through the area and replace the needless repetition of fetch and find letters or whatever else you are sent to retrieve like a dog. 

[diagorias]

There were some story elements crossing over from area to area. For example in the Western Approach you found letters and bodies of experimentation on giants with red lyrium, it was also mentioned that more was to be captured. In the Emerald Glades you found camps of red templars who were there for the sole reason of capturing giants. Then later in Emprise du Lion you actually find those red-lyrium-giants, a few failed ones, but also a few which succeeded. And there are quite a few more elements carrying over from area to area, main story to area or area to main story.

[renfrees]

It was more of an affirmation than an argument.

 

Although, your statement that older Bioware games were better because the side quests tied back into the main storyline is basically wrong.  How many of Baldur's Gate's side quests did that?  Any of the?  Aside from the phat lewts I mentioned above.

Or perhaps I should stick with DA:O.  Sure, there weren't optional areas.  Every place you went to had something to do with the main plot, but the overwhelming number of sidequests never tied in at all.  Did Dagna?  Did telling (or not telling) Athras about his wife?  How about calling up that demon on the ground floor of the Circle Tower, which gives you a powerful sword (phat lewts!)

 

Look, refrees, I get what you're saying.  There's more optional content in this game than there is plot-important content.  What I'm saying is that's been true of every game I've played by this company for over twenty years.  More, if you include Black Isle, which I do.

I was talking more about areas, that had so much work put into them, but no connection to an actual story. For them to become an optional content, just like side quests, is saddening. If you skip side quest it's no big deal - few lines of dialogue and several strings lost, but the whole area is another matter.

[robertthebard]

Nope, I think you should explore every area. However most of those areas are huge sprawling pieces of boring fetch quests that I can't stand to replay and has stopped me from even wanting to pick up the game again. There are good intentions in all of them..but the execution is horrible. 
 
With that, I proposed that a much better way to do it is to put an actual Inq Path quest within each area. Even if its small, it could take you through the area and replace the needless repetition of fetch and find letters or whatever else you are sent to retrieve like a dog.

What I'm doing are the quests that relate directly to Cory. So, for example, I'm in Hissing Wastes right now, just chasing down the Vintatory. If I stumble on something, cool, but I'm not going out of my way for anything. Even though they are side quests, they are related to the main story line.

[Stelae]

Why would I play a story driven game for any other reason? Especially a SP story driven game. It's not like it's an MMO, and story is optional. Now, I have yet to do every single map, but I have done enough that I can tell myself that I have indeed impacted his plans, so that when he makes that claim, I can say, yep, I did that. I don't need the moustache twirling exposition some people seem to find so mandatory(which ultimately is never what they want, and so they then complain about getting it, instead of not, this is, after all, the BSN), just like I'm glad the Archdemon didn't try to chat at the end of Origins. When you trigger the final confrontation, that's what it is, the final confrontation. If you're left feeling like you didn't learn enough about the world, or the villains in it, you did that to you, not the game. There is lots of information available, barring "I didn't get to talk to Cory on every map, so meh".

In earlier BioWare story-driven games, the choices you make have a definite impact on how the game plays out.  Pick Mordin Solis to lead your fire-team if you don't believe me.  Or have Alistair kill Loghain, and then try to get him into a political marriage with Anora.

 

If I don't bother to find the weakness in Samson's armour for example,  (and as I said, for my first run-through, I didn't) I expect that to have an impact on how the fight plays out.  But it doesn't.  For a lot of people, this cheapens the effort you have gone to in spending resources and time to do what the game is telling you to do.  This has nothing to do with expository dialogue; it's about the circumstances and settings of an encounter being identical whether you take steps to give yourself the best chance, or you don't. 

[TheJediSaint]

Saved the day, killed the bad guy, got the girl.  What's not to like?

[Bladenite1481]

Saved the day, killed the bad guy, got the girl.  What's not to like?

My girl chose to be King Nun. Or Empress Divinity or something..

[Bladenite1481]

What I'm doing are the quests that relate directly to Cory. So, for example, I'm in Hissing Wastes right now, just chasing down the Vintatory. If I stumble on something, cool, but I'm not going out of my way for anything. Even though they are side quests, they are related to the main story line.

Yeah, the thing is..none of that matters. It doesn't really contribute to any game play advances. It only changes that area and that's it. Everything else in the game will play the same, so it cheapens the effort and promotes skippage. Where as if it were made to be a main quest and then brought with it some changes..like maybe Fairbanks can help you with the nobles or solving the Civil war gets you an in with Gaspard..then it would have been more fun. As it is, its bloated, ineffectual and uninteresting. 

[DarkSpiral]

Saved the day, killed the bad guy, got the girl.  What's not to like?

That sounds very much like something leliana said to my Warden once.  I applaud you, sir.

[robertthebard]

In earlier BioWare story-driven games, the choices you make have a definite impact on how the game plays out.  Pick Mordin Solis to lead your fire-team if you don't believe me.  Or have Alistair kill Loghain, and then try to get him into a political marriage with Anora.
 
If I don't bother to find the weakness in Samson's armour for example,  (and as I said, for my first run-through, I didn't) I expect that to have an impact on how the fight plays out.  But it doesn't.  For a lot of people, this cheapens the effort you have gone to in spending resources and time to do what the game is telling you to do.  This has nothing to do with expository dialogue; it's about the circumstances and settings of an encounter being identical whether you take steps to give yourself the best chance, or you don't.

It actually does have an impact, it makes the fight easier. I'm not sure how much easier, but it does make it easier.

But let's go into this fallacy a bit more. What did dealing with the werewolves in the Sword Coast gain the Bhaalspawn? Some xp, and some loot, but nothing that directly affected the main story. There were literally hours of things you could be doing in Baldur's Gate that did not apply to the main story, at all. The point? That's an early BioWare game. The thing about side quests is, they are side quests. They are optional content that you can pursue, or not, as the whimsy strikes you. If you elect to do them, you're doing them for something other than advancing the plot, because they are, by definition, not going to advance the plot.