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The game that never was: A look at the 2013 version of DA:I


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#76
Noelemahc

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Well, in defense of Ken Levine (and, *gasp* Casey Hudson), things do get cut for time or resource limitations, rewrites and pacing editing (The DIG, does anyone remember that? scrapped and remade almost from scratch three times over), which sometimes produces amazeballs results (provided you survived until the patches were released, Alpha Protocol is the most non-linear awesome roleplayey not-fantasy RPG ever made) and sometimes leaves a permanent terrible taste in your mouth (sorry, Mass Effect 3, but you're still a badly-written game and nothing will ever change that).

 

Most of the time, however, it's a good-but-not-perfect game, like Bioshock Infinite or Dragon Age Inquisition or Monkey Island 2 or Half-Life 2 or-- did you notice, this most often happens to sequels, not first-game-in-a-series's?



#77
pinkjellybeans

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Wow, I didn't follow Inquisition's development because I only started playing DA games for a few months, but watching that gameplay video makes me feel rather depressed. Even the combat looks way better! But what upsets me the most is the lack of story and cut scenes in the worlds.. Cut scenes give you all sorts of emotions and involve you in the story so not having that, made everything seem forgettable and boring and made the sidequests annoyingly chore-like and unimportant. Just watching that scene of Varric and the burned down village made me care more about Crestwood than the actual game ever did.

 

I would trade half of the worlds we got for more cut scenes and more story in general any day. It's just so incredibly frustrating that everything they cut seemed so important, it's either related to story or what makes the DA games fun and different. (like all the messed up stuff they did with the combat: no tactics, 8 slots for abilities, horrible tactical camera, no click to walk, click to loot, no auto-attack, no change of weapons during combat, the whole business of healing spells,potions, etc. This is a RPG, let me play the way I WANT and stop making me play the way YOU want. If I want the gameplay to be more challenging I will do it my way, I don't need you to force ~*~challenge~*~ on me. But I digress.) And all of this got cut for what? For 10 empty worlds that are pretty to look at? Sigh...


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#78
merik3000

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Fantastic post Korhiann which sums up how I felt perfectly. I enjoyed DA:I but was caught off guard by the changes that they never announced. The whole stronghold customization was something they dedicated a whole page to with pictures showing the fortress in 3 different styles. I thought at first that maybe the first 3 you captured were given to each forces so they would each have 1 fortress as a main base and expected there to be perhaps 5 in total with only 2 to be able to customize. Then I though that because you had a more linear choice you would get a quite good sidequest of fully restoring order to a region or just increasing your presence there but alas no you just get a sidequest to kill some bandits or build some watchtowers (which wasn't too bad but made no sense considering there was still 3 high dragons flying around...)

My favorite Keep system was Neverwinter Nights 2 were you could actually see your forces grow and your base get extended but alas it seems no one has taken any cues from such a system. You could even impose taxes and allow a village to form near your fortress. Also you could run into a patrol of yours and help them fight. Power did become extremely pointless once I had gained about 200 as I could do all operations and have plenty left over but you never saw or heard how much power and influence you had gathered as any cutscenes that showed your army were the same whether you had 1 power or 200 :(

I knew I had to temper my expectations when it comes to keep systems but I never thought they would remove content they had already showed and confirmed without stating it anywhere before release... If any Bioware game needed to show these features more it was Inquisition as the whole point is growing a new organization to restore order so why did it seemingly have less troop upgrades than Awakening? I mean part of the damaged wall at Skyhold NEVER gets fixed!

Ah damn it now I'm severely bummed as I really thought I would finally have a Bioware game that had an advanced Crossroads Keep but I really should've known better. Well at least I have a garden that says it will earn me money but never does...


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#79
Proposition_Joe

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Really good and interesting write up and somewhat dissappointing conclusion, cant shake the feeling that we are sitting with a inferior game than what could have been the case.



#80
merik3000

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Also what happened to that whole Making a Colossus to boost troop morale? I am guessing they intended it for the Hissing wastes colossus to be completed by you but as an inquisition style one? Man this reminds me of the original Fable and Peter Moleneux saying you could plant a seed to then watch a tree grow :P Basically we needed more region specific War Table Operations that actually changed the areas slightly like increased patrols or rebuilt villages. Emprise Du Lion was one of the most disappointing areas in this regard as red lyrium still is around everywhere and the village is not rebuilt... That and the unnatural winter is ongoing despite you wiping out the red templars as I was sure it would be like Crestwood and hat the scenery would change after the major missions there...



#81
Fearsome1

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 In other words I missed actually seeing the Inquisition armies, why are all of the big battles offscreen? 

 

This to me best sums up the difference between what was proffered to fans and what was ultimately received from Bioware with Inquisition. Details beyond that can vary based upon individual interpretation. Obviously, the game is huge in comparison with its predecessors, and no small amount of effort was put into the game. I can only imagine the level of frustration over ANY changes that had to be implemented at source, from what they may have intended. I have enjoyed Inquisition quite a lot. 

 

I do have to wonder at all of our collective efforts to secure fortresses all over the map, to recruit special agents all over the map, and the many hours involved to spread our influence & power and then basically not see any fruit from this?

 

At least the Battle of Denerim showed representation by each force you recruited to face the archdemon. Every companion that you had was present for the big battle, and you got to warp back to the main gate for a few tense moments with those left behind to protect your six? Not so much here.


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#82
WarBaby2

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At least the Battle of Denerim showed representation by each force you recruited to face the archdemon. Every companion that you had was present for the big battle, and you got to warp back to the main gate for a few tense moments with those left behind to protect your six? Not so much here.

...and BW will hear that from me with every new game... They did the same with ME3s ending:

 

Meaningless "power collecting", "tell, not show", etc. If you can't tell an epic story properly, then don't tell it at all!



#83
Ozzy

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Nice write up. It's clear that quite a few things ended up getting simplified and I would have loved if the Keep mechanic remained as it was described but I suppose that's a reality of game development and they have to prioritise what to keep. I can't help but feel that the race options lead to a lot other things being seen as less of priority. I still appreciate the race options immensely though.

 

They could have delayed the game to include all of it but delay after delay after doesn't make for good news and ultimately, they had to get the game out. I imagine that there would never be a scenario when a developer wouldn't be like "Oh, if i had more time I could do X!" but concessions have to be made in the end. Could some things have been improved? Sure. Would this have made things more interesting? Sure. But I am more than satisfied with the game. It definitely classifies as 'great' in my mind and I'm more excited for the future of the franchise than I ever have. 



#84
Earende

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I always believe one of the reason is due to too much budget spent on marketing. I mean, take this game. It's Bioware, we all know that name and pretty much know the quality of stuff it can produce. Then take the name Dragon Age. Combine them. Seriously, do you really believe they needed a $XXXX marketing campaign? This over marketing seem to be the problem for almost everything in this age.



#85
WarBaby2

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I always believe one of the reason is due to too much budget spent on marketing. I mean, take this game. It's Bioware, we all know that name and pretty much know the quality of stuff it can produce. Then take the name Dragon Age. Combine them. Seriously, do you really believe they needed a $XXXX marketing campaign? This over marketing seem to be the problem for almost everything in this age.

It is, but that side of things is generally handled by the publisher and a completly different problem initself. I seriously think it comes down to "what savely works" in a game, and what are kinda "risky" mechanics... today's AAA market is top to bottom on the "play it safe" side, especially when it comes to EA games. Dunno, maybe focus groups don't like to make hard desitions in games?



#86
T.G

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Good thread, good posts. One of the more reasoned and reasonable ones here so far; hope it stays that way. Thank you.

 

I hadn't followed development of DA:I closely enough to be aware of those omissions from the game at launch.

 

It's a shame.

 

Nevertheless (and perhaps because I wasn’t harbouring any specific expectations) I’m really enjoying the game at the moment, and that’s regardless of being in agreement with many others about some areas of the game that are a bit disappointing or flawed at the moment.

 

But it's clear they did do some iteration on the absent content during development. With news of the imminent patch 2, they have (albeit belatedly) stated very clearly that they 'ran out of time' in terms of realising their whole ambition for the game at launch. While that's disappointing for now, I'd rather continue supporting a studio that does retain that sort of ambition. The game as launched still is (for me) a high quality product, full of expansive vision and entertaining gameplay.

 

And nothing’s ever wasted in a creative process. The content and mechanics that were cut from the game at launch (for whatever reasons) might still make it into this game over the coming months (and I’d be happy to pay for good quality DLC, which has been my experience of BW previously). And even if it doesn’t make it into this game, it might make an appearance in the next; alongside whatever learning they take from some relatively brave experiments they’ve made with DA:I (and I think they have taken some creative risks with this game, and I applaud them for that).

 

Perhaps I should be more cynical. I often am. But where BW and this game are concerned, while I’m disappointed in some areas, I can’t shake a feeling of general contentment with what they’ve delivered so far, and of optimism for the future.

 

I feel like I’ve been sold a quality product with DA:I, and I think the artists and development team involved in its creation deserve their recent award. It’s a hell of an achievement, and you get the feeling that they’re as disappointed as anybody else that it still wasn’t as good as they wanted it to be. I feel for them.

 

~TG


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#87
T.G

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Further to my last :P… because I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and also because I like this thread and the tone of the people posting here, and thusly I think it might be a good home for it:

 

I’d just like to comment on the issue of having been potentially misled, or even lied to about this game.

 

Some people (here and elsewhere) have stated some pretty strong views on this, and have also provided evidence why they feel that this has been the case.

 

I’m less convinced about this, not least because, regardless, I feel that I’ve been sold a solid product at the end of the day.

 

I think, also, that there’s a couple of things at play here. One is obviously to do with how someone actually ‘sells’ you a product, or even an idea; PR and marketing, I guess you could say, in this context. My views on this in a moment.

 

The other is simply to do with how creatives share their ideas and ambitions with you.

 

Some artists (even ones involved in commercial art or entertainment) work in a very private way, and simply hate discussing their ideas or vision in any way prior to presenting their work. Others, especially those more overtly involved in commercial art and entertainment, love to share their ideas as part of their process. In any case, when money is involved, inevitably both are often forced to give up something to the process of marketing their product in advance of launch.

 

When artists (and developers in our context) share their ideas, prototypes and ambitions with me I understand that they’re involved in a process of creation; it’s a work in progress.

 

They might be very excited to tell me about (and maybe even show me) a whole raft of ideas they’re working on; and I might get excited about them, too. But at any point it might be that a particular idea turns out to be crap, or impossible to realise for whatever reason, or becomes superseded by another idea. It might even be that it remains a fecking brilliant idea, but it’s one of six other fecking brilliant ideas, and they only have time to finish those.

 

I’m not going to knock them for that. I’m sure they’re as disappointed as I am (probably more so) that it didn’t work out quite like they’d hoped. And I’m not going to knock them for sharing with me in the first place; for ‘getting my hopes up’; that just feels a bit ignorant and spiteful to me.

 

But it’s at the interface (which is not always direct) between the artists and their audience, during these developmental and iterative periods, that problems can arise; namely, in this context, through the interferences and processes of PR and marketing.

 

This is a relationship, and so it involves two parties, and both can make errors of judgement: the one, only telling people what they think they want to hear; the other, only hearing what they want to hear; and both parties potentially disregarding the fact that they are talking about a work in progress.

 

Yet, even here, I think there’s a big difference between outright lying and what you might describe as ‘faceting a presentation’; you might even call it ‘spin’, but that, too, comes with negative baggage.

 

Successful marketeers, like politicians, are skilled at faceting their presentation… you might call that lying sometimes. Actually, I despise this aspect of marketing (and politics), but I’m not so naïve that I’m blind to it happening, all the damn time.

 

When a film studio cuts a trailer for a movie, they don’t show you exactly what the movie is, they try and give you a taste of it and show the bits they think are really good; they try and sell you the experience. Even as individuals, we do exactly the same thing whenever we apply for a job; in our CV and covering letter we tell our prospective employer things we expect they would like to hear; we facet the presentation of ourselves. It’s nothing surprising.

 

In any case, it’s the marketing rhetoric to do with “a game for PC gamers made by PC gamers” (paraphrased) which seems to have become a contentious item. It’s also the thing that has backfired; that’s what happens when your ‘faceted presentation’ is found out.

 

Some people have also expressed dismay that (in light of the rhetoric) all gameplay demonstrations were given using a controller, and cited this as further evidence (bah humbug!) that they obviously had no intention of prioritising PC gamers. Hmm, I dunno; seems to me that it’s clearly a much more engaging, rock’n’roll way to demonstrate a game to stand up on a stage (or sit down on a couch) with a wireless controller in your hand and talk about what’s going on, without a desk, a mouse and keyboard in your way. It’s a much more aesthetic approach to showcasing your game. I think that’s entirely understandable, especially when a large proportion (probably the majority) of your intended overall market use controllers; even if I don’t really enjoy the console/controller environment myself.

 

Despite the rhetoric, though, I think it was pretty clear for all to see, from demonstrations of actual gameplay, that this was likely to be a game optimised for console/controller gamers.

 

And, even if it wasn’t clear to see, it’s really not a stretch to anticipate it being the case, especially from a commercial standpoint as I say.

 

Also, the Quest for the Red Lyrium Reapers, for anyone who did that, was a great big Xbox advert. It was actually pretty cool; the DA:I game trailers were really good, and this had them all in one place with a sort of mini-game throughout them to unlock items in the game. But, since it forced you to watch all the trailers all the way through, it was essentially a big Xbox advert, with their logo flying around all over the place. So what? They had an investment in the release of the game on their platform. No biggie. Just another clue as to what to expect.

 

So…

 

Misled? Maybe, but not, in my view, badly or maliciously so. Takes two to tango.

 

Outright lied to? Nah.

 

I was glad to see their ideas and the extent of their ambition shared en route.

 

I’m just a bit disappointed they couldn’t fully realise everything this time around (as much for them as for myself).

 

Still. Good game. Props.

 

~TG


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#88
ORTesc

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The game could have (and should have) been so much better. It's such a shame, but we're talking about EA here. ROI is most important, never quality.

 

I really hate large publishers.



#89
schall_und_rauch

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Excellent analysis. One of the best thread openings I've read here on the forum.

The more I think about this game, the more I think that they wasted masses of potential with the idea of "leading the inquisition". It never feels like an organisation you shape with your actions, it completely lacks individuality and agency.

I think they cut A LOT. I'm pretty sure they had tons of ideas, but in the end, they had to struggle with so many technical difficulties that they just cut out half of the game to still release it.
The game shows sparkles of extremely high detail and lots of ideas which are just at the starting point of making the game great...but then never going anywhere. Instead, the game is filled with masses of gathering quests and minigames, with not enough of what makes Bioware games great: An amazing story.

I still enjoy the game, but just thinking about what it could have been makes me cry.

#90
Noelemahc

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I think they cut A LOT. I'm pretty sure they had tons of ideas, but in the end, they had to struggle with so many technical difficulties that they just cut out half of the game to still release it.
The game shows sparkles of extremely high detail and lots of ideas which are just at the starting point of making the game great...but then never going anywhere. Instead, the game is filled with masses of gathering quests and minigames, with not enough of what makes Bioware games great: An amazing story.

I still enjoy the game, but just thinking about what it could have been makes me cry.

As time goes by, the ratio of cut-content-to-final-game-content in BioWare games keeps growing. It was in the single digits of percentage points in Mass Effect, in the teens in DAO, hit the tweens in Mass Effect 2, who-knows-what in DA2, went triple-digit with Mass Effect 3...

 

Don't dwell on what could have been's, it's not healthy and detracts from your enjoyment of the game you did get.



#91
Rip504

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Perhaps these mechanics broke the game... Or didn't have the overall desired effect.

#92
TheExtreamH

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I do hope they add features like this with DLC or patches later on. I've always wondered where is that keep attack thing was. Was this gameplay shown before the announcement of other races? Adding them could have took time away from finalizing that feature.



#93
Tsunami Chef

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A game that looked better when the developers showed 30 minutes of content specifically designed to hype the game as opposed to the 100 hour full product?

 

When have i seen this happen...except every game in history.

 

Also, the gameplay looks exactly the same...



#94
ORTesc

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A game that looked better when the developers showed 30 minutes of content specifically designed to hype the game as opposed to the 100 hour full product?

 

When have i seen this happen...except every game in history.

 

Also, the gameplay looks exactly the same...

 

I'm guessing Watch_Dogs looks the exact same as it's e3 demo too? Developers can do no wrong, it's all us whiney consumers that are the problem!


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#95
helpthisguyplease

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 Explain to me why did they not release the game with those features, they were not in the stage of a idea they actually existed I saw them with my own 2 eyes. So why do people keep telling that there where cut because of time constraint when they could have kept them because they were  in the game since 2013. They cut working features that worked according to the videos.



#96
WarBaby2

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I'm guessing Watch_Dogs looks the exact same as it's e3 demo too? Developers can do no wrong, it's all us whiney consumers that are the problem!

Of course... and we all are entitled bastards that should be happy to get games at all, too... ;)

 

Seriously, though, I don't know why BW changed some fundamental concepts of the game, but my best guess is: It didn't work out... either because it wasn't approved by the publisher or it was broken to begin with. I tend to go with the former, since, yea, focus groups can't be worng now, can day?



#97
Retconnaissance

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Despite being rather lengthy and having no small amount of content, in it's current state this game is begging for an expansion, not just a dlc cycle. At least this time it doesn't look like things were outright ripped from the game to be sold later on, so that's something. Still if they manage expand some things further and adress some issues, DA:I may really become one of the most complete experiences by the end of it's support cycle. If I remember correcly they said ME3 will get one year of support with new content, and it did. Was anything like that stated in regards to DA:I?



#98
Korhiann

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A game that looked better when the developers showed 30 minutes of content specifically designed to hype the game as opposed to the 100 hour full product?

 

When have i seen this happen...except every game in history.

 

Also, the gameplay looks exactly the same...

 

Exaggerating won't really get you anywhere. I can assure you that not every single video game in history is guilty of this. 

 

Let's try to clarify this a bit more. 

 

Three scenarios

 

1) A developer shows early footage, WIP of course, and later on they show how the content/gameplay etc. shown earlier on has changed. No problem, just part of the development cycle and they showcased the changes. 

2) Another developer also shows early footage and later on showcases content/gameplay etc. that doesn't have anything to do with what was shown earlier on, then also forget to mention having changed what was shown earlier on. A problem since their consumers should have been told about the changes to make an informed descision before making a purchase. It can however be explained as a simple mistake, so not that big of a deal. 

3) A third developer showcases footage that has been specifically made to make their game look, and play, far better than what ends up being the case. Basicly false advertisement. Huge problem for obvious reasons. 

 

Video games like Aliens: Colonial Marines and Watch Dogs are prime examples of number 3 and DA:I would be an example of number 2, although the end product ended up being great fun despite that. 

 

The gameplay looking the same depends entirely on what you mean by gameplay. You'll have to clarify that. 


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#99
Korhiann

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 Explain to me why did they not release the game with those features, they were not in the stage of a idea they actually existed I saw them with my own 2 eyes. So why do people keep telling that there where cut because of time constraint when they could have kept them because they were  in the game since 2013. They cut working features that worked according to the videos.

 

Who knows. I find the reasoning that they found themselves developing an entirely different type of game than they wanted and instead of carrying on decided to cut their losses and rework content to fit their new direction. I have no idea if that's the case. 

 

Despite being rather lengthy and having no small amount of content, in it's current state this game is begging for an expansion, not just a dlc cycle. At least this time it doesn't look like things were outright ripped from the game to be sold later on, so that's something. Still if they manage expand some things further and adress some issues, DA:I may really become one of the most complete experiences by the end of it's support cycle. If I remember correcly they said ME3 will get one year of support with new content, and it did. Was anything like that stated in regards to DA:I?

 

I haven't heard/read anything official regarding that, but people have stated that Bioware wants to add in cut content later on, or just content that they want to add in. 



#100
Melca36

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Those were alpha versions of the game. I have no sympathy for you if you expected the early versions of the game


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