Its the first conversation with Leliana at Haven that really strikes me and made me realise that we don't really know her at all in DA:O.
In stark contrast, the first conversation with Morrigan at Skyhold was a very pleasant surprise. Surprise that her love for Kieran is as genuine and motherly as it can get, even if he was conceived from Loghain
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
I told her not to kill Natalie. She said, "no, I have to be ruthless", and did it anyway.
Which is why I asked, because I can't think of any time i led by a vicious example... figure it's probably something obscure.
Damn. I didn't even know that was possible. Were you encouraging her to kill people throughout the game? I was always taking people captive and turning enemies into allies.
Maybe it's tied to the conversation where you walk in on her ordering the assassination of a traitor.
I told her not to kill Natalie. She said, "no, I have to be ruthless", and did it anyway.
Which is why I asked, because I can't think of any time i led by a vicious example... figure it's probably something obscure.
I got the same... I think you have to pay close attention to your dialogue choices right from the beginning of the game with her, and stay consistent. As far as my current playthrough is concerned, it still works. Ruthless spy master, chose a Quanri alliance over the alternative... O.o
I told her not to kill Natalie. She said, "no, I have to be ruthless", and did it anyway.
Which is why I asked, because I can't think of any time i led by a vicious example... figure it's probably something obscure.
Very early in the game, first time you see her in the tent in Haven, there is a cutscene about a traitor spy.
You have three options, tell Leliana not to kill him, remain silent or encourage her.
The last two makes her kill the man, which is what hardens her so she will always kill Natalie. If you tell her not to kill the traitor in the beginning of the game you can make her not kill Natalie too and she will be nicer and happier when you talk to her in Skyhold.
I told her not to kill Natalie. She said, "no, I have to be ruthless", and did it anyway.
Which is why I asked, because I can't think of any time i led by a vicious example... figure it's probably something obscure.
Same thing happened to me.
That was actually the part that annoyed me about Leliana. Everyone remember how back when they showed the Redcliffe demo everyone was calling for the chance to have Leliana jailed or flogged for killing Felix?
This was that for me. I gave Leliana a direct order not to kill Natalie. She disregarded it. I am given no opportunity to punish or reprimand her for this.
I can understand giving our advisors a good deal of autonomy to perform their tasks as they see fit for the best interests of the Inquisition, but when I give a direct order, I expect it to be followed. Natalie was utterly insignificant. She posed no threat. She had been completely neutralized at this point. Leliana hadn't just been tortured, wasn't under some emotional duress that compromised her judgment.
She just blatantly and flagrantly ignored her superior's direct order and I have no recourse available to me.
Anyway, back on topic, yea, I noticed that Leliana and Morrigan essentially arrived at opposite places from where they started. I was disappointed we didn't get a scene with them together, talking about old times, having reached some mutual understanding.
Very early in the game, first time you see her in the tent in Haven, there is a cutscene about a traitor spy.
You have three options, tell Leliana not to kill him, remain silent or encourage her.
The last two makes her kill the man, which is what hardens her so she will always kill Natalie. If you tell her not to kill the traitor in the beginning of the game you can make her not kill Natalie too and she will be nicer and happier when you talk to her in Skyhold.
Very early in the game, first time you see her in the tent in Haven, there is a cutscene about a traitor spy.
You have three options, tell Leliana not to kill him, remain silent or encourage her.
The last two makes her kill the man, which is what hardens her so she will always kill Natalie. If you tell her not to kill the traitor in the beginning of the game you can make her not kill Natalie too and she will be nicer and happier when you talk to her in Skyhold.
Well, that's... stupid.
Yes I know, I remained silent in my first playthrough because I felt like she should do her job and then by the end of the game she got angry with me for some reason when I told her to let Jusitinia go.
As it is, telling her not to kill him actually delivers a nice piece of dialogue from the Herald, so I can live with it in other playthroughs.
Morrigan-being better than Leliana
Leliana-doing what she has been since she was a teenager
Not really that ironic, tbh.
The "ironic" part is in how they SEEMED and how most of us perceived them based on appearances when we started the game versus what they actually were.
Also, to address something that someone wrote earlier, yeah, I also told Lel not to kill the woman and she did it anyway just as she killed Felix when I ordered her to free him. Gangsta girl.
As the other person stated, I was also silent when the traitor issue came to my attention because I thought that it wasn't really my business at the time.
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
The dialogue choice to not kill the traitor isn't as cringe worthy as some might think. It comes off more as a 'find out what he knows, killing him is a waste'.
Yes I know, I remained silent in my first playthrough because I felt like she should do her job and then by the end of the game she got angry with me for some reason when I told her to let Jusitinia go.
As it is, telling her not to kill him actually delivers a nice piece of dialogue from the Herald, so I can live with it in other playthroughs.
I just don't see how the one has anything to do with the other; the two situations aren't remotely similar.
In the early one, we have a spy under the employ of the inquisition who has actively betrayed the inquisition by murdering another agent.
In her personal quest, we have a chantry sister Leliana used to be friends with but who is not and has never been under the employ of the inquisition, spying for a third party - not a hostile enemy - with no real implication that she meant active harm in this situation or that she would have been capable of harming either Leliana or the inquisitor if she tried. There's no trust to betray and no real threat posed.
And most importantly, in the early situation, the PC is not in a position to tell Leliana how to do her job. Leliana is one of the Inquisition's commanders, the Herald is just someone they keep around to close rifts and break deadlocks between them.
In the later situation, during her personal quest, we are the Inquisitor. We are the high command of the Inquisition. Leliana is our subordinate, sworn to follow our commands, however much leeway we give her in her job. If we tell her not to kill someone, she is disregarding a direct order. We could have been the most ruthless motherf*cker in Thedas up until this point, that doesn't matter; her job is to do as we say, not as we do.
I kinda feel sorry but my Inquisitor sort of needed Leliana to be... ruthless even when I didnt realize it. I pick her most for War Chamber missions to do my dirty work... I suppose RP wise, Justina used her and the Inquisitor used her. In a way, I believe the ruthless Leliana is who she really is.
I never thought of Morrigan as being ruthless. Since DAO, my impression of her remains the same. She is nothing more than selfishness in the flesh, kinda like Vivienne although they act different, deep inside, they are both "Tis-all-About-ME-Demon".
At the end, I would still trust Leliana more. Leliana needed a purpose, give her a purpose, wield her as a dagger and point her towards the enemy. Morrigan? The moment you put some other interest above her own, well... at the best she will just leave.
I thought that Leli and Morrigan should have more to say to each other. They did spend like a year wandering around Ferelden together with me.
I thought that Leli and Morrigan should have more to say to each other. They did spend like a year wandering around Ferelden together with me.
I thought that Leli and Morrigan should have more to say to each other. They did spend like a year wandering around Ferelden together with me.
Agreed.
I think saying 'We didn't know her at all in DAO' 'she was just princess stabbity all along' is oversimplifying her way too much. The whole point of her development in DAO was that she didn't really know that either. The cutesy, giggly thing may have been a facade of sorts, but I doubt it was one she was consciously putting up to fool you. It's still there to a degree in DAI, so it's evidently part of her, somewhere, but her work has evidently pushed the more ruthless side over it.
I agree to an extent, but while the cutesiness may be a part of her I would still say the ruthless part is the primary part of her personality.
Also remember, in Origins, Leliana was still undergoing her crisis of faith, she's activily suppressing her more brutal side, she doesn't slip back into her old ways until after she and the Warden part company. But yeah I also agree that Leliana is a complex character, (maybe one of Bioware's most complex) that can't really be described with labels like "princess stabbity stab".
The thing is though Morrigan never actually lies to you Leliana does.
With Morrigan you know what you're getting into from the start Leliana not so much...
Then there's her dialogue after she's hardened in DAI...
Yeah can't imagine my Warden would stay with her after that.*he was very much a white knight*.
In fact I have this tragic image of him killing the mad Divine Victoria his former lover in my head.
*curses lack of artistic talent*
Yeah it felt like the writers took liberties and automatically assumed everyone "hardened" Leliana,
Life changes people. If you talk to her in depth, she talks to you more like unhardened Leliana about life and the chantry, but she was asked by the divine to serve her and what that turned out to mean was to be her spymaster. We also know that Justinia had enemies and that being her spymaster was murky. That changed ther from whatever state she was in after DA:O, just as her betrayal by marjoline changed her as did the warden and Justininia. Just because someone changes, it doesn't mean they're locked in that state, especially after 10 difficult years.
I think saying 'We didn't know her at all in DAO' 'she was just princess stabbity all along' is oversimplifying her way too much. The whole point of her development in DAO was that she didn't really know that either. The cutesy, giggly thing may have been a facade of sorts, but I doubt it was one she was consciously putting up to fool you. It's still there to a degree in DAI, so it's evidently part of her, somewhere, but her work has evidently pushed the more ruthless side over it.
Yeah her Origins self was really her lying to herself pretending like she never met Marjolaine that she was still the person she was before she met her. Better or for worse Leliana recognizes that part of her, the cutesy, girlish, purity sue isn't who she really is she's more like Marjolaine than she ever wanted to admit to herself, and that scares her and excites her. Come DA:I she has more or less accepted her role as the Divine's personal assassin and has reconciled her more brutal nature with a cause she finds righteous, of course when the Divine is no more she becomes even more brutal.
Well, that's... stupid.
All your choices matter. That's not stupid at all and is what people have been asking for. Of course, what most people mean by that is 'I want to have my cake and eat it too.' 
All your choices matter. That's not stupid at all and is what people have been asking for. Of course, what most people mean by that is 'I want to have my cake and eat it too.'
One choice that has nothing to do with the other, taking place months(in universe) prior, in completely different circumstances doesn't excuse Leliana ignoring a direct order from her commanding officer. That letting her execute the traitor earlier turns her ruthless isn't my problem. That ruthless Leliana disobeys a direct order and that I am powerless to respond to it is.
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