2858 réponses à ce sujet

[Tidus]

Sera,Is what a lot of stiff necks would like to be. She doesn't give a shite about anything and has fun in the process.

 

How can anybody not like Sera when they adore Vivienne which is a evil and selfish  person? The truth of the matter is one is beautiful and one not so much. I  would rather have a hundred Seras then one Vivienne. I know Sera save my fanny several times when I had to control her when everybody else in the party was dead. Had I not level and skilled her up and given her strong armor and bow I would have had to start over from my last save.

 

Here's my usual party when playing my usual mage except during the siege of Haven and I use Dorian. 

 

Cass,Blackwell Sera.

 

In one game I did a quest with 4 rogues,my rogue,Sera,Cole and Verric. That was a fun time.

[The Elder King]

The truth is that every person has different values and opinions, which affects his/her liking or disliking a characters.

[Tidus]

The Elder King-Looks plays a large part on how well a character is received. You can almost start a riot if you say anything bad about Vivienne even though she is vile and selfish.

[The Elder King]

The Elder King-Looks plays a large part on how well a character is received. You can almost start a riot if you say anything bad about Vivienne even though she is vile and selfish.

That she's vile is your opinion though and it's normal that people would react if you say that. The way you criticize a character influence how people react.
Morrigan and Leliana were both beautiful and they could be criticized without starting a riot, so I doubt that in Vivienne's case her appearance is the reason people (might) react harshly. Not to mention Vivienne is criticized for her appearance as Well, so it's not like she's considered beautiful by everyone.

[Blood Mage Reaver]

Well...

 

I particularly love Sera as a character and she is my favorite LI, however, I understand why many people would be put off by her attitude.

 

Sera is at many times childish, petty and immature whereas some players want their DA experience to be more grimdark and serious.

 

This is why some people would really like Vivienne but strongly dislike Sera at the same time.

 

Vivienne is the machiavellian cynically inclined character who plays the world as it is and even if she does have some good intentions at heart, she is far too gone into her Orlesian mask to change her ways. She fits to a T what one needs to be in order to succeed in the twisted politics of the setting.

 

Sera is the cuckolander idealistically inclined character who plays the world as she thinks it is and even if she budges down sometimes, she holds her view too strong for anyone to change her ways. She fits to a T what one would be if they completely turned their backs to the twisted politics of the setting.

 

Case in point, people have trouble dealing with characters who go against their views and Sera basically gives the middle finger to the whole "Elfs and Mages are victims of society" thing that many players have sustained since they first played DA.

 

Because she simply won't be convinced to sympatize with other elves and neither will she become more serious regarding all the weird **** happening, people who want their experience to be more political or dramatic will lose their patience with Sera and dismiss her as an annoying looney that breaks their immersion.

 

My opinion is that people should just lay back and chill, DAI has too many funny moments to be taken as seriously as DAO or DA2. If they weren't soo keen on making every character conform to their world views there would be far less flak launched at Sera.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Well...

 

I particularly love Sera as a character and she is my favorite LI, however, I understand why many people would be put off by her attitude.

 

Sera is at many times childish, petty and immature whereas some players want their DA experience to be more grimdark and serious.

 

This is why some people would really like Vivienne but strongly dislike Sera at the same time.

 

Vivienne is the machiavellian cynically inclined character who plays the world as it is and even if she does have some good intentions at heart, she is far too gone into her Orlesian mask to change her ways. She fits to a T what one needs to be in order to succeed in the twisted politics of the setting.

 

Sera is the cuckolander idealistically inclined character who plays the world as she thinks it is and even if she budges down sometimes, she holds her view too strong for anyone to change her ways. She fits to a T what one would be if they completely turned their backs to the twisted politics of the setting.

 

Case in point, people have trouble dealing with characters who go against their views and Sera basically gives the middle finger to the whole "Elfs and Mages are victims of society" thing that many players have sustained since they first played DA.

 

Because she simply won't be convinced to sympatize with other elves and neither will she become more serious regarding all the weird **** happening, people who want their experience to be more political or dramatic will lose their patience with Sera and dismiss her as an annoying looney that breaks their immersion.

 

My opinion is that people should just lay back and chill, DAI has too many funny moments to be taken as seriously as DAO or DA2. If they weren't soo keen on making every character conform to their world views there would be far less flak launched at Sera.

 

In other words, Sera is a mess and we could have had someone better. 

[The Elder King]

In other words, Sera is a mess and we could have had someone better.

I'm fine with all the cast in DAI. My only problem is that There are too much of them and it limited the content for each of them.

[vertigomez]

Does it matter? I think Sera's a fantastic character, well-written, and an invaluable presence in-universe and out. I value her perspective and enjoy her friendship and romance. Whether other people like her doesn't affect me or her.

[fdrty]

@ Ghost Gal

 

Your Iron Bull comparison is apt, but there is one crucial difference between the two: Sera command a network of spies, whereas Bull commands a unit of mercenaries.

 

Obviously you want your mercenaries and your bodyguard to be at your side, and you want your spies to be elsewhere, actually spying. Sera says as much, that they wouldn't be very good spies if they weren't in the places where they can find useful information. You aren't supposed to know who Red Jenny is, hence the moniker. She hides herself even from her subordinates. They aren't going to be playing cards during their downtime.

 

I did concede that we don't get to see Sera interacting enough with the poor. But, I think this is generally a flaw of DAI as a whole, not just her. We don't really get the level of interaction with people that we got in Origins or even DA2 - most of the common people are there to simply hand out quests and have a line or 2 of dialogue at most. We don't get those quests that really contextualise the world, or that level of conversation with randoms that we got in Origins, such as in the Brecilian Forest, Orzammar, or Redcliffe.

 

As for the whole 'judge, jury, executioner' - my point was that in a feudal system, nobody is put into their position in a fair and democratic way. If the Empress of Orlais can decide who gets to be that, suiting to her own interests and prejudices, then why can't Sera decide the same on the same basis? Because she wasn't born in the Winter Palace? Neither are accountable, neither are fair, so to criticise the one outside the system yet not the system which creates the same thing seems to me to be short-sighted.

 

The crucial thing I want to say, though, is that Sera might not be a morally good character, but being morally good and being likeable are not the same thing. Who you like is far more subjective. There are so many different personalities and political and cultural backgrounds in DA companions that it is pretty much impossible to like and agree with everyone on everything. There will be those that you like and dislike, those you agree with and disagree with, those you can't bear, and those you couldn't play the game without. And those characters are not perfect: they have their own biases, prejudices and experiences which colour their views, just like real people.

 

I think Sera's greatest strength as a character is the levity she provides in a game which sometimes veers into over-seriousness. For that reason, even if I don't agree with her political views or moral stance, I still like her as a character, even if she was never the loveliest girl.

 

A great real world example of likeability vs morality is the WWE. Stone Cold Steve Austin was a character that was morally ambiguous at best, and amoral at worst. Yet he is, and was, universally adored by the fans. Whereas John Cena is unquestionably a morally good guy, yet he is disliked by a not insignificant portion of the fanbase.

 

An in game example, for me, is Anders. He was not a morally bad person. He fights for the oppressed, he heals the sick, and he fought the darkspawn. But I found him to be unbearable, preachy, and dour. I also disliked Aveline, despite her being a good person she seemed to spend a huge amount of time nagging Hawke because of this thing or that. Yet someone like Merrill, Oghren or Leliana, who were far more morally dubious, I really liked. And then you have Fenris, who is neither good nor likeable, but he's a rare example. One of my problems with DA2 was that many of the companions weren't likeable (at least in my opinion) and had personality traits better suited to antagonists than friends.

[fdrty]

How can anybody not like Sera when they adore Vivienne which is a evil and selfish  person? 

 

Selfish? Yeah. But Evil? No way. And this is from someone who hated Vivienne.

 

 

I realised how awful a person Vivienne was when her lover dies. While she is genuinely sad, she immediately begins to utilise his death as a political opportunity.

 

 

Sera is at many times childish, petty and immature whereas some players want their DA experience to be more grimdark and serious.

 

This is why some people would really like Vivienne but strongly dislike Sera at the same time. ...people have trouble dealing with characters who go against their views and Sera basically gives the middle finger to the whole "Elfs and Mages are victims of society" thing that many players have sustained since they first played DA.

 

Because she simply won't be convinced to sympatize with other elves and neither will she become more serious regarding all the weird **** happening, people who want their experience to be more political or dramatic will lose their patience with Sera and dismiss her as an annoying looney that breaks their immersion.

 

Doesn't Vivienne also go against the whole 'mages are victims' view herself?

 

But I see your point. While Sera adding some comic relief and light-hearted banter is one thing which makes me like her, it's something which could turn players off.

 

 

You know what else is annoying?

Long, pseudo intellectual drivel, and all this about a pixel, fictional character.
Do you realise how immature that is?

 

 

It's not immature at all. People have been discussing fictional character almost as long as published fiction has existed. If you find it so annoying, then I suggest you leave the place which is made specifically for such a thing. Or just ignore threads you don't want to read.

 

Not only do bioware employees read these threads, but they listen to feedback and take ideas from them. So, if someone starts a thread and nobody counters the arguments of that thread, those arguments could end up forming the next entry in the franchise.

 

Also, I gain a lot from discussions online. Being able to research, form and articulate an argument is a transferable skill that can help you in many areas of your life, even though you can't exactly put 'I got x upvotes on reddit' on your resume.

[LobselVith8]

 

Even if one is an advocate of mage freedom, could this really be considered to be equal as to establish hypocrisy? Under what circumstances could hurting common folk be considered as a "greater good"? Peasants don't have the innate ability to set an entire village aflame or become an abomination. Fear of mages and the want for them to be detained, even if disagreeable, is at least understandable, but when nobles are hurting common folk, it's generally for no greater good than their own personal benefit. 

 

I wonder about Sera's concern for the common folk. It's worth nothing that Sera does support putting Gaspard on the throne, which I find peculiar since I think it's highly possible the Red Jenny network heard about what chevaliers do as part of their initiation rite, about the scholars he's funding in the university of Val Royeaux to write papers about elves being animals (and equating human/elven relations to bestiality), and that he's petitioned hunting trips to hunt Dalish elves. In contrast, Sera dislikes supporting Briala, who is fighting for the common folk of the alienages (the people who the chevaliers kill during their initiation rites).​

[Xilizhra]

 

 

 

I wonder about Sera's concern for the common folk. It's worth nothing that Sera does support putting Gaspard on the throne, which I find peculiar since I think it's highly possible the Red Jenny network heard about what chevaliers do as part of their initiation rite, about the scholars he's funding in the university of Val Royeaux to write papers about elves being animals (and equating human/elven relations to bestiality), and that he's petitioned hunting trips to hunt Dalish elves. In contrast, Sera dislikes supporting Briala, who is fighting for the common folk of the alienages (the people who the chevaliers kill during their initiation rites).​

 

Actually, Sera greatly disapproves of letting Celene die, so in balance, she doesn't support Gaspard.

[LobselVith8]

Actually, Sera greatly disapproves of letting Celene die, so in balance, she doesn't support Gaspard.

 

Yet of the two Sera will like supporting Gaspard and dislike supporting Briala. She also gives approval if you ask Celene to spare Gaspard's life.

[Tidus]

The Elder King,Vivienne is as evil as they come-get through to her how the mages should be free and don't relent. She wants the return of the Circles and the Templar watch dogs even though the Circles didn't work and became a place where murder,rape,beatings and tranquility ran rampant.. Even Cassandra said the Seekers failed to see the  problem and the system must change.

[Kabraxal]

 

 

 

I wonder about Sera's concern for the common folk. It's worth nothing that Sera does support putting Gaspard on the throne, which I find peculiar since I think it's highly possible the Red Jenny network heard about what chevaliers do as part of their initiation rite, about the scholars he's funding in the university of Val Royeaux to write papers about elves being animals (and equating human/elven relations to bestiality), and that he's petitioned hunting trips to hunt Dalish elves. In contrast, Sera dislikes supporting Briala, who is fighting for the common folk of the alienages (the people who the chevaliers kill during their initiation rites).​

 

 

Considering how hidden the intricacies of the game can be, it isn't surprising that Sera may not know that neither Gaspard or Celene would be a good leader... Brialla, while the best of the three, is still more worried about the elves than all common folk, which is why I understand Sera's dislike of helping her.  Sadly, her other two choices are far more despicable. 

 

Masked Empire spoilers:

 

Spoiler

If Sera was to somehow learn about Celene's true nature and how she easily orders the deaths of servants and innocents for the purposes of the game, we would not have gotten out of The Winter Palace without a huge battle.... Celene would have had an arrow right through the mouth.  But sadly, that is so well hidden that I'm not even certain Leliana and her network knows it... clearly suspects it, given that her hidden Divine points are increased by letting Celene die and Briala placed as the hidden ruler in Orlais.

 

Seriously, that book and the Winter Ball shined a glaring light on the ugliness of Orlais and its "game". 

[The Elder King]

The Elder King,Vivienne is as evil as they come-get through to her how the mages should be free and don't relent. She wants the return of the Circles and the Templar watch dogs even though the Circles didn't work and became a place where murder,rape,beatings and tranquility ran rampant.. Even Cassandra said the Seekers failed to see the problem and the system must change.

That doesn't make her evil. Supporting the circle doesn't make you evil, and she doesn't condone the act you mention. And I'm not saying this because I support her stance.

[LobselVith8]

Considering how hidden the intricacies of the game can be, it isn't surprising that Sera may not know that neither Gaspard or Celene would be a good leader... Brialla, while the best of the three, is still more worried about the elves than all common folk, which is why I understand Sera's dislike of helping her. Sadly, her other two choices are far more despicable.

Sera dislikes Briala but likes Gaspard, which is a bit of an issue if we're saying that it's all about "the common folk".

Masked Empire spoilers:

Spoiler

If Sera was to somehow learn about Celene's true nature and how she easily orders the deaths of servants and innocents for the purposes of the game, we would not have gotten out of The Winter Palace without a huge battle.... Celene would have had an arrow right through the mouth. But sadly, that is so well hidden that I'm not even certain Leliana and her network knows it... clearly suspects it, given that her hidden Divine points are increased by letting Celene die and Briala placed as the hidden ruler in Orlais.

Seriously, that book and the Winter Ball shined a glaring light on the ugliness of Orlais and its "game".

I imagine what happened at Halamshiral should have reached her, at the very least; it wasn't exactly a secret.

[Ghost Gal]

@ Ghost Gal

 

Your Iron Bull comparison is apt, but there is one crucial difference between the two: Sera command a network of spies, whereas Bull commands a unit of mercenaries.

 

I didn't say I had a problem with Sera not interacting with her Red Jenny spies, I have a problem with her never being shown to interact with the poor that she claims to care so much about.

 

She's constantly lecturing the Inquisitor against considering themselves so big and important that they don't notice or care about the "little folk" working for them, yet she's never shown actually interacting with, getting to know, or helping out Inquisiton staff either.  If anything, she has her own private room in the tavern that she never seems to leave (while Bull hangs out with common tavern patrons downstairs), and we're only told about her causing problems for Inquisition staff too, like how she steals tons of jam from the kitchens and drives the cooks crazy. I guess the cook and cook's assistants don't count as "little people" one shouldn't cause problems for.

 

It's a huge part of Bull's character that he's friendly, sociable, and cares about the men under him, so we have scenes that show him caring about and getting to know his men. We're constantly told Sera cares about the poor folk, yet apart from one scene where she talks to elven servants in the Winter Palace we have NO scenes of her actually interacting with them or making their days better with her antics. 

 

Even the prank scene falls flat because she CLAIMS it's to boost morale, but we never actually see the Inquisition's common getting a laugh through her antics. It just comes across as Sera wanting to play pranks because she feels like playing pranks on "big, important people," then using common folk as an excuse to do it.

 

 

I'll also address people who jumped on me for condemning Sera for appointing herself as Judge, Jury, and Executioner to all "important folk" she feels doesn't treat the common folk right: I stand by it. Sera has shown that she's willing to murder nobles she just met and knows nothing about based on hearsay and rumor, and based on whether or not she likes them on sight. I used her double standard regarding mages as an example of her having a very warped and biased perspective. Lots of people jumped on me for being biased. You're right, I am biased. But unlike Sera, I don't take it upon myself to go around playing Judge, Jury, and Executioner to a bunch of people I don't know based on whether or not they fit my personal biased view of what proper conduct to other people is. I still don't respect or like Sera for personally appointing herself the ultimate judge of the fates of nobles; and I don't even like nobles!

[Kabraxal]

Sera dislikes Briala but likes Gaspard, which is a bit of an issue if we're saying that it's all about "the common folk".


I imagine what happened at Halamshiral should have reached her, at the very least; it wasn't exactly a secret.

 

Halamshiral wasn't much of a secret, but if anything, all three possible "successors" seem equally blameworthy to any outsider's eyes.  The only one in the Inquisition that would seem to have any real understanding of the intricacies of the events of the civil war is Leliana.  She used to play the game, still does at some level, and was also present during some of the moments of decision. 

 

Sera is not only "common", and thus not important to the game according to every bit of information we have, but Fereldan.  She doesn't know all of the intricacies and scandals and atrocities created behind the scenes by any of these.  And most of her "common" network in the Jennies, while more in tune with Orlesian politics, are still outside looking in.  So all she really knows for certain that Celene's continued rule equals stability which is normally "better" for the common people, Gaspard is worse but still a familiar cog in the same machine, while Brialla is the explosive element that usually starts revolutions that decimate the common folk. 

 

Is she right in this thinking?  No.  But then we, as the players, are privileged to far more information than her and we can see that Celene is a manipulate b**** that will easily order the deaths of innocent servants, elves, and any commoners to suit the "common good" and that Gaspard is the typical Chevalier in many respects.  He has an odd sense of honour, but he views the common people as tools at best and will gladly let the common folk be trampled in his war for power.  And given the Masked Empire's revelations, Brialla is much more similar to Sera than she would ever like to find out.  
 

[LobselVith8]

Halamshiral wasn't much of a secret, but if anything, all three possible "successors" seem equally blameworthy to any outsider's eyes.  The only one in the Inquisition that would seem to have any real understanding of the intricacies of the events of the civil war is Leliana.  She used to play the game, still does at some level, and was also present during some of the moments of decision. 

 

I don't see how any outsider could blame Briala because Celene burned down Halamshiral and killed thousands.

 

Sera is not only "common", and thus not important to the game according to every bit of information we have, but Fereldan.  She doesn't know all of the intricacies and scandals and atrocities created behind the scenes by any of these.  And most of her "common" network in the Jennies, while more in tune with Orlesian politics, are still outside looking in.  So all she really knows for certain that Celene's continued rule equals stability which is normally "better" for the common people, Gaspard is worse but still a familiar cog in the same machine, while Brialla is the explosive element that usually starts revolutions that decimate the common folk. 

 

With the issue still being that Briala gives approval if you put Gaspard on the throne, or if you ask Celene to spare his life, so she does seem to like him in some capacity. Sera puts Briala down even though she - out of all the candidates - is the only one trying to improve the lives of countless elven men, women, and children who otherwise have no hope of a better future.

 

If this is about death, shouldn't she hate Gaspard for starting the civil war against Celene and starting his own revolution to oust her from power?

 

Is she right in this thinking?  No.  But then we, as the players, are privileged to far more information than her and we can see that Celene is a manipulate b**** that will easily order the deaths of innocent servants, elves, and any commoners to suit the "common good" and that Gaspard is the typical Chevalier in many respects.  He has an odd sense of honour, but he views the common people as tools at best and will gladly let the common folk be trampled in his war for power.  And given the Masked Empire's revelations, Brialla is much more similar to Sera than she would ever like to find out.  
 

 

I think that what is publicly known about Celene and Gaspard is a factor in how this comes across.

[dragonagenewbie]

I didn't say I had a problem with Sera not interacting with her Red Jenny spies, I have a problem with her never being shown to interact with the poor that she claims to care so much about.

 

She's constantly lecturing the Inquisitor against considering themselves so big and important that they don't notice or care about the "little folk" working for them, yet she's never shown actually interacting with, getting to know, or helping out Inquisiton staff either.  If anything, she has her own private room in the tavern that she never seems to leave (while Bull hangs out with common tavern patrons downstairs), and we're only told about her causing problems for Inquisition staff too, like how she steals tons of jam from the kitchens and drives the cooks crazy. I guess the cook and cook's assistants don't count as "little people" one shouldn't cause problems for.

 

It's a huge part of Bull's character that he's friendly, sociable, and cares about the men under him, so we have scenes that show him caring about and getting to know his men. We're constantly told Sera cares about the poor folk, yet apart from one scene where she talks to elven servants in the Winter Palace we have NO scenes of her actually interacting with them or making their days better with her antics. 

 

Even the prank scene falls flat because she CLAIMS it's to boost morale, but we never actually see the Inquisition's common getting a laugh through her antics. It just comes across as Sera wanting to play pranks because she feels like playing pranks on "big, important people," then using common folk as an excuse to do it.

 

 

I'll also address people who jumped on me for condemning Sera for appointing herself as Judge, Jury, and Executioner to all "important folk" she feels doesn't treat the common folk right: I stand by it. Sera has shown that she's willing to murder nobles she just met and knows nothing about based on hearsay and rumor, and based on whether or not she likes them on sight. I used her double standard regarding mages as an example of her having a very warped and biased perspective. Lots of people jumped on me for being biased. You're right, I am biased. But unlike Sera, I don't take it upon myself to go around playing Judge, Jury, and Executioner to a bunch of people I don't know based on whether or not they fit my personal biased view of what proper conduct to other people is. I still don't respect or like Sera for personally appointing herself the ultimate judge of the fates of nobles; and I don't even like nobles!

 

So we never see Sera actually interacting with little folk...wouldn't that fall under your earlier definition of "tell not show"?  Which if i understand you and the other person who talked about it is just bad storytelling or a limitation in game mechanics (ie we cant have cutscenes for everything).  She doesnt leave the tavern...well how many companions or NPC's actually walk around Skyhold? I think that the devs/writers placing her in the Tavern is their way of showing us that she's "for the people". Where does Vivienne hang out? all by herself, in a loft overlooking your throne room and with a patio that overlooks the Skyhold courtyard.  That seems kinda fitting for her personality.  Dorian hangs out in the library, Cassandra whacks at a training dummy all day, and Varric is within arms reach of the buffet table.

 

Also judge, jury and executioner?  all these people talking about Vivienne kinda jogged my memory.  When you first go to Vivienne's house some Nob challenges you to a duel.  But Vivienne lets you decide his fate and you can let him go or have Viv kill him.  Who appointed her judge, jury and executioner? In Cole's storyline you, Solas and Varric seek out some Templar and Cole either spares him or lets him go.  What about that situation?  thats like half your companions right there including yourself.  Anyone who has done Blackwalls personal story knows what's going on with him.  I wonder if i should start looking closer at Cassandra, Iron Bull and Dorians storylines to see if i can find random murder there too.

[Pasquale1234]

The problem I've got with how the writers justified Sera's actions is that they portrayed the nobility in a VERY unrealistic light. As if all Orlesian aristocrats were an accurate representation of how medieval nobility is supposed to be.
 
The aristocracy was the government before the formation of National States. They wrote the laws, they judged crimes and legal matters of their subjects, they defended their borders and ensured the safety of their people, they regulated trade and commerce, they protected farmers from the abuses of loan sharks, they mediated disputes involving ownership of land or property, they granted co-ownership of their lands to the traditional farmers, they ensured inheritance of lands to old farming families, asf.
 
They were responsible for protecting the people, upholding the law and the maintenance of order. Their subjects in turn were responsible for working the land and giving them a small percentage of their production to the land owner. That was all. The nobility wasn't some arrogant, callous class as Inquisition displayed. Sure,they weren't all good, but that's not the point. The game offers a distorted vision of what the aristocracy - of what ANY aristocracy - is like. The nobility had responsibilities which could lead to a rebellion from their subjects if they failed with their duties, as it happened a few times in medieval Europe.

You make some excellent points. When I play a Cousland or Trevelyan character, I tend to play them as noble in every sense of the word - they regard their title and position as one of service and responsibility to their citizens, rather than power and control over them.

That said, I'm not surprised that Orlesians came off as they did. It's been awhile, but I vaguely remember Leliana talking about The Game in DAO, and how convoluted and difficult to trace a lot of Orlesian noble lines had become. Appearances are tremendously important in Orlesian culture, and success at The Game isn't just about power and status - it's about life and death. Are there any genuinely noble, service-oriented nobles in Orlais? It's hard to tell. Centuries of living with The Game may have warped all of them to some degree.

In contrast, I think nobles from other areas came off in a much better light. Most Ferelden nobles rallied to help protect people from the blight, and Viscount Dumar struggled tirelessly to do the best he could for Kirkwall under very trying circumstances. We also see Varric putting forth a great deal of effort and his own resources to help Kirkwall rebuild, and ended up as Viscount. Josephine and Cassandra were also nobles of their home countries, and both of them dedicated themselves to lives of service.

[Kabraxal]

I don't see how any outsider could blame Briala because Celene burned down Halamshiral and killed thousands.

 

 

With the issue still being that Briala gives approval if you put Gaspard on the throne, or if you ask Celene to spare his life, so she does seem to like him in some capacity. Sera puts Briala down even though she - out of all the candidates - is the only one trying to improve the lives of countless elven men, women, and children who otherwise have no hope of a better future.

 

If this is about death, shouldn't she hate Gaspard for starting the civil war against Celene and starting his own revolution to oust her from power?

 

 

I think that what is publicly known about Celene and Gaspard is a factor in how this comes across.

 

Her assassination of the noble man shows to outsiders that she was part of the rebellion (which was not yet completely true). 

 

With Sera and Brialla, it is clear that Brialla's elven focus is off putting to Sera.  She thinks that it is yet another Elf more worried about elves instead of everyone.  Right or wrong, it's easy to see how she can come to that assumption.   And again, for Gaspard and Celene, it is about keeping stability to Sera.  Celene alive with a Gaspard under her heel is far more stable than Celene dead or Celene alive but Gaspard martyred.  Though, at some point it could be just that Gaspard is disarmingly charming to many commoners.  The games or books really don't give any impression on that either way.

 

And I think if Sera truly had her way she would just kill all three and find a better ruler. But her thinking is to end the Civil War so the common people stop dying in droves.  The way she sees with the information she has it just happens to keep the two idiots in power that created the problem in the first place.  Place The Masked Empire (or any network information that reveals that info) and she will storm off cussing her heart out as she tries to see how she can fix the royal **** up. 

 

We are making judgments based on information and understanding that most of the characters do not have.  I cannot slam Sera for her choices, especially considering that before I read Masked Empire, I would have thought Celene was the best option and that Gaspard was no Loghain level of twisted.  I made similar judgement calls with very little understanding of the reality behind the throne.

[dragonagenewbie]

That said, I'm not surprised that Orlesians came off as they did. It's been awhile, but I vaguely remember Leliana talking about The Game in DAO, and how convoluted and difficult to trace a lot of Orlesian noble lines had become. Appearances are tremendously important in Orlesian culture, and success at The Game isn't just about power and status - it's about life and death. Are there any genuinely noble, service-oriented nobles in Orlais? It's hard to tell. Centuries of living with The Game may have warped all of them to some degree.
 

 

Would Gaspard be one of those? It seems like in his Wicked Hearts dialogue that he doesnt like "the game" that all the other Orlesians play.  I'm guessing that he's in it for power and glory etc etc.  But even if he is doing it for himself how would his leadership approach affect everyone in Orlais? nobs and commonfolk alike?

[Pasquale1234]

Kudos to the writers - they really hit a home run with Sera.

The biggest disappointment for a writer and kiss of death for a character is to be met with a "meh" reaction. Sera is a mega-star in the way she provokes such strong reactions on both sides of the love her / hate her coin and inspires endless debates.
 

Would Gaspard be one of those? It seems like in his Wicked Hearts dialogue that he doesnt like "the game" that all the other Orlesians play.  I'm guessing that he's in it for power and glory etc etc.  But even if he is doing it for himself how would his leadership approach affect everyone in Orlais? nobs and commonfolk alike?

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but I'm pretty sure that I'm not prepared to address it. I've not read any of the novels, and my only knowledge of the Celene / Gaspard / Briala situation came from a single playthrough of DAI - not a lot of background provided.