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Why do a lot of people hate Sera?


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#2526
dragonagenewbie

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I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but I'm pretty sure that I'm not prepared to address it. I've not read any of the novels, and my only knowledge of the Celene / Gaspard / Briala situation came from a single playthrough of DAI - not a lot of background provided.

 

Ohh i was just saying that Gaspard may be one of those "service-oriented nobles" that you were asking about.  According to his dialogue during Wicked Hearts he doesn't seem to think highly of the "game" with all the masks or whatever.  He does do a bit of scheming during that quest, but it was so that he could get the crown.  Which from what i'm reading on a wiki should have gone to him in the first place since he was first in line for the throne but Celene "outmanuevered" him according to the wiki.  There's some mention of that too in the game, but when i first heard it I thought that it was just because i was in a really high level zone and i had not done Wicked Hearts quest yet.  I get the impression that he is more direct in his approach...he's a hammer, he see's a nail he hits it. Looking at some wiki entries for him and it says he is liked by his subordinates and he still lives by the chevalier code.  Aside from the attempted coup he sounds like an ok guy hehe.



#2527
LobselVith8

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Ohh i was just saying that Gaspard may be one of those "service-oriented nobles" that you were asking about. According to his dialogue during Wicked Hearts he doesn't seem to think highly of the "game" with all the masks or whatever. He does do a bit of scheming during that quest, but it was so that he could get the crown. Which from what i'm reading on a wiki should have gone to him in the first place since he was first in line for the throne but Celene "outmanuevered" him according to the wiki. There's some mention of that too in the game, but when i first heard it I thought that it was just because i was in a really high level zone and i had not done Wicked Hearts quest yet. I get the impression that he is more direct in his approach...he's a hammer, he see's a nail he hits it. Looking at some wiki entries for him and it says he is liked by his subordinates and he still lives by the chevalier code. Aside from the attempted coup he sounds like an ok guy hehe.


The guy who is funding scholars to write that elves are animals and who petitions to hunt down Dalish elves as if he were simply hunting down animals is an 'okay guy'?

#2528
dragonagenewbie

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The guy who is funding scholars to write that elves are animals and who petitions to hunt down Dalish elves as if he were simply hunting down animals is an 'okay guy'?

 

Give me a one liner for Celene and another for Briala so that i can compare them all, then i'll let you know if he really is an ok guy (ok for the throne of Orlais that is).



#2529
Xilizhra

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Kudos to the writers - they really hit a home run with Sera.

The biggest disappointment for a writer and kiss of death for a character is to be met with a "meh" reaction. Sera is a mega-star in the way she provokes such strong reactions on both sides of the love her / hate her coin and inspires endless debates.

In much the same way were the ME3 endings a home run.


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#2530
thesuperdarkone2

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Give me a one liner for Celene and another for Briala so that i can compare them all, then i'll let you know if he really is an ok guy (ok for the throne of Orlais that is).

Here are some charming quotes from Gaspard from Masked Empire:

 

Gaspard was silent beside her for a moment. Then he burst out laughing. “Maker’s breath, Celene!” He slapped his leg. “You’ve never lacked for courage, I’ll give you that. Were you a man, you’d be leading the armies yourself.”
“Is that why you must plot against me, Gaspard?” she asked, looking over. “Because I’m not a man?”
He actually seemed to think about it. “No,” he finally said, “the real problem is that you aren’t me.”
 – pg. 36

 

Gaspard is also very racist. After finding out Celene was close with Briala, he actually commissioned two different scholars to write papers on why elves are more akin to rabbits than people, and therefore should be treated like animals rather than people.

 

“Several of the professors have been asked to write papers about the elves. One will be saying that their large ears mark them as similar to rabbits, which means that they are simple prey animals, relying upon base instinct for survival and not to be trusted. Another will claim that anyone fornicating with an elf is insulting the Maker, as one who lies with animals.” – Pg. 66

 

When he confronts Briala about her work for improving the lives of the elves, he has this to say:

 

“Don’t be modest, girl. Noble Orlesian sons and daughters came back from Celene’s university talking about improving the alienages, and the professors write that they’re being asked to teach elves now as well. The taxes always seemed to slide around the poorer merchants. Maker’s breath, how many times did I ask for leave to mount an expedition to drive out the Dalish only to get sent off to hunt for darkspawn instead?”“Three.” Briala smiled thinly. – Pg. 91

 

And if you’re going to say he only did/said these things to further his goals to the throne, (which is absolutely not an excuse anyway,) here’s a quote from him to a character irrelevant to that conflict:

 

 

 

“You thought they were right to be angry at Mainserai, so instead of raising an army and stomping out the rebels, you wrung your hands and sent a few extra patrols and hoped that everything would eventually quiet down. You taught the elves to fight, just like a bad horseman teaches his charger to buck and bite.” He shook his head. “You taught them to attack the guards, when you allowed it to go unpunished. You taught them to dream of a life outside the slums where they belonged. And if Celene hadn’t slapped shackles on her lover and burned those slums, you would have taught every damned knife-ear in Orlais to stand up against us.” – pg. 93

 

Why does Gaspard want the throne?
Mostly, because he wants to invade Ferelden again. No, seriously. He considers Celene weak in trying to create friendship between the two countries. Gaspard fought for Orlais’ first occupation of Ferelden, and still considers them enemies.

He first attempted to spark conflict at a ball, by trying to bait Tegan into attacking him in front of everyone. How he did this, you ask? By being a ******, of course. First by general insults. Then by pulling out a “gift.

“There are many like us, men who are willing to save Orlais from the woman who would give it to our enemies with a kiss and a wave.” – pg. 30:

 

 

(For those of you who don’t know: Moira was Maric’s mother, and the leader of the Fereldan rebellion against the Orlesian empire, before she was killed. And this is an incredibly dick move, emotionally affecting Teagan just as Gaspard wanted.)

Gaspard eyed the blade. “I’d as soon come at someone with a fireplace poker as I would wield that thing.” He nodded to Bann Teagan. “It was taken off the body of some Fereldan noblewoman who got caught making trouble for poor Meghren. Moira, I believe.” Behind his gold and green mask, his eyes twinkled with good humor. “Our servants had been using it to kill rats in the cellars.” Teagan had gone still, looking at the sword in his hands as though the rest of the court had vanished. The green velvet bunched around his white-knuckled fists. – pg. 20

If Briala didn’t catch him sneaking in the blade beforehand, and Celene didn’t use quick thinking to calm the situation, he probably would have succeeded, too.

He claims that his reasoning behind this is that it would solve the Mage/Templar conflict. (???)

 

“A good war unites the empire. Maybe we can let those idiots in the Chantry and the Circle kill people outside our borders instead of inside them.” – pg. 37

 

 

Does that seem like a nice guy to you?


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#2531
dragonagenewbie

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Here are some charming quotes from Gaspard from Masked Empire:


Does that seem like a nice guy to you?

 

1) I asked for 1 liners not 1 paragraph-ers or 1 page-ers lol

 

2) Masked Empire is a book, granted from an official Bioware source which would make it canon.  I was not aware that in order to comment on Gaspard that i had to play the game AND read a book.

 

3) I didn't actually read any of that stuff you posted sorry, but just out of curiosity you didnt filter out any of the bad things about Celene did you?  Basically i wanted dirt on Celene and Briala i have no doubt that they have done good things, but i want to know the bad stuff about them.  If you're only giving me bad stuff about Gaspard and none of the good stuff about him and only giving me the good stuff about Celene/Briala and none of the bad stuff then i cant really accept any of that.  I dont think i'll be reading that book so i'd have to take your word for it.



#2532
Kabraxal

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1) I asked for 1 liners not 1 paragraph-ers or 1 page-ers lol

 

2) Masked Empire is a book, granted from an official Bioware source which would make it canon.  I was not aware that in order to comment on Gaspard that i had to play the game AND read a book.

 

3) I didn't actually read any of that stuff you posted sorry, but just out of curiosity you didnt filter out any of the bad things about Celene did you?  Basically i wanted dirt on Celene and Briala i have no doubt that they have done good things, but i want to know the bad stuff about them.  If you're only giving me bad stuff about Gaspard and none of the good stuff about him and only giving me the good stuff about Celene/Briala and none of the bad stuff then i cant really accept any of that.  I dont think i'll be reading that book so i'd have to take your word for it.

 

Celene not only decides to put Halamshiral's slums to the torch for an overt display of power after being embarrassed and her power threatened, but she has ordered the deaths of innocent servants to protect her status before ascending to the throne.  She is ruthless and borderline psychopathic... the only person she has any empathy with is Brialla. 

 

Between the books and game... Brialla is actually quite tame compared to many in Thedas.  She assassinated a noble who had directly led to the deaths of innocent elves and she does play some of the game.  But she was mostly shown in a rather positive light in the book.


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#2533
Zero

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Answering to the OP:

 

Because she is really annoying. She has really good points sometimes, and overall is a good character. But most of the time is just critizing you for who you are (mage, elf, etc), or being just as immature as pre-teen. 



#2534
thesuperdarkone2

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1) I asked for 1 liners not 1 paragraph-ers or 1 page-ers lol

 

2) Masked Empire is a book, granted from an official Bioware source which would make it canon.  I was not aware that in order to comment on Gaspard that i had to play the game AND read a book.

 

3) I didn't actually read any of that stuff you posted sorry, but just out of curiosity you didnt filter out any of the bad things about Celene did you?  Basically i wanted dirt on Celene and Briala i have no doubt that they have done good things, but i want to know the bad stuff about them.  If you're only giving me bad stuff about Gaspard and none of the good stuff about him and only giving me the good stuff about Celene/Briala and none of the bad stuff then i cant really accept any of that.  I dont think i'll be reading that book so i'd have to take your word for it.

You asked about Gaspard so I put Gaspard things but if you want Celene and Briala stuff, here it is:

 

Celene:

Damn you, Celene.” Briala’s big beautiful eyes filled with tears. They caught the light from the fire, shimmering in the darkness like a cat’s as Briala stepped closer. The pulse in her neck fluttered fast, though she moved as gracefully as always. “Don’t explain it. I know why. I just wished you had cared more.”
“It would have been a locked suite in the palace for a few years, nothing more!” Celene kept her voice low, aware that Michel and Felassan had stopped planning and were looking their way. “It would have changed nothing for us.”
“Your hair still stinks of the smoke from the people you burned,” Briala said. “That is a change.”
The dead leaves crackled under Celene’s feet as she stepped forward. “How many wars can our empire survive in such a short time? I wanted my legacy to be the university, the beauty and culture that made us the envy of the world. Instead, I may be known as the empress under whom Orlais fell. You have the luxury of mourning Halamshiral’s elves and holding my heart hostage. Sitting on my throne, I see every city in the empire. If I must burn one to save the rest, I will weep, but I will light the torch!”
Briala swallowed. “You’re not weeping, as far as I can tell. Nor are you sitting on your throne.” She stepped away, her movements fast and jerky. “With your permission, Your Radiance, I shall go indulge myself in my luxury.”
 – pg. 112

 

“She has been my eyes and ears for most of my reign,” Celene said, and again, Michel saw the fond little smile. “She has always been there for me.”

 

“Your empress,” he said. “You trust her. You believe she will free your people.”
“I do,” Briala said without hesitation. 
“Then who’s going to scrub the floors?” Felassan asked, and smiled. 
“You distrust her because she is human.”
“No.” Felassan paused. “Well, all right, yes, but more than that, I distrust her because she has successfully ruled an empire. No one who does that cedes power. Even if they are wise. Even if it is for the best, in the long run. Even if failing to do so will ultimately destroy everything.”
It was too close to what the little voice in the back of Briala’s mind had suggested. She silenced it as it started again and glared at Felassan. “Celene is different.”
“She most certainly is,” Felassan said, and stopped.
 – pg. 170

“And you have promised to free her people,” Michel said.
This time, Celene was silent. Michel looked up and saw Briala and Felassan waiting, shadows surrounded by the twisting light that hurt his eyes.
“We needed her,” Celene said, slowing her pace ever so slightly. “And she needed to know that I cared about the elves.”
“After Halamshiral.”
“Yes.” She said it without hesitation, but her voice was low.
 

“This wretched place makes my eyes ache, Majesty, but for her, it is the dream of elven greatness come to life. Do you expect her to come out of this land and put her servant’s mask back on?”
“I do.” Celene spoke with confidence, but she squinted up ahead all the same to where Briala and Felassan walked far ahead. “Bria has helped me play the Game for years, Michel. I doubt that an enchanted path will change that.”
 – pg. 172

 

“Why?” Celene gripped her blades so tightly that her fingers burned. 
“Tell me again how you will free my people.”
“I gave you my word!” Celene stepped forward, a dagger raised. “I swore!”
“And I think you even believed yourself.” Briala swallowed. “But when the nobles protested, when it threatened to weaken the empire, you would have let it go. You would have ignored your promises to me, knowing that I would always forgive. That I would always stand at your side.” Now her blades came out. “After all, I believed in you even after you killed my parents.”
 – pg. 215

 

 

Yup. After Celene’s own parents were killed, in order to gain the throne, she had the Emperor assassinated. And in order to prevent anyone knowing it was her, she had every one of her servants killed. Including Briala’s parents.:

 

Celene thought. She had moved perfectly, using everything Lady Mantillon had taught her to position the pieces for this last gambit. All the other players, everyone she had trusted, stood to lose as much as she did if their plan failed. She remembered sipping wine with Lady Mantillon’s son, drinking Antivan coffee with Lord Joseph Montbelliard, gauging each move, catching the subtle hints their bodies gave when they glanced at the passing servants.
The passing servants …
Celene swallowed. “My estate is currently empty,” she said, “save for the servants.” She met Lady Mantillon’s gaze. “An attack by would-be assassins might build more sympathy to my cause … and ensure that bards hear no tales in the marketplace.”
Lady Mantillon looked at her for a long moment. And then her perfectly made-up face broke into a slow smile. “I agree, your Imperial Majesty.”
 – pg. 216

 

And yes, Celene herself says all the servants on pg. 41. She pretended it was someone trying to gun for her, in order to as she says above, earn sympathy points. This I think, is one of the better examples of how truly fucked in “the Game” is. Because to the servant girls like Briala losing their parents, it’s not a game.

 

 

So when DA:I says Celene betrayed Briala, it is one of if not the biggest understatement in the series. She had her arrested for completing a task she set out for her to do. She killed thousands of elves Briala risked everything to protect. Lied about giving elves equal rights in order to win her back. She had her parents killed and lied about it. And she fully expected Briala to just come back to her anyway.

Many people like to defend Celene by saying she’s done good things for the elves of Orlais. Like letting those few who are sponsored by pitying nobles into the university. But as it is said multiple times, not just by Felassan but also by Gaspard, (quote in his section,) that credit does not go to Celene. It goes to Briala.

“You say that she has helped the elves of Orlais,” Felassan said. “This is untrue. What gains they have made are due to your work, not hers.”
“With respect—”
“Oh, stop.” His voice was patient but firm, and he did not look over at her. “Without you, your empress would have been no friend to the elves. Even her rival Gaspard could see that.”
 – pg. 110

 

I do want to mention a few good things about Celene too, though. She honestly and truly cared for Michel, as a friend, not just a servant. She even risks her live to save his. She does care for Briala too… Just not in a healthy way. 
She’s shown to be a quick thinker and when she wants to, she can put her charm to good use. Such as defusing the tension between Gaspard and Teagan.
And when they discovered the eluvians, she considered giving the knowledge to the elves. Grant it, the thought was in order to form her own little spy squad, so yet again she’s focused more on what she can get out of the situation rather than just being a good person, but still. There is apart of her that wants to help them. That part is more concerned with keeping her elven girlfriend, but it’s certainly a step up from Gaspard.
(But that doesn’t take much.)

 

Briala:

 

In Wicked Hearts, you find out that Briala did in fact order the deaths of Celene and Gaspard's diplomats to further her own goals and is completely willing to kill a fellow elf because she knows about her relationship with Celene.

 

Other than that, there isn't really much that Briala does that can be considered bad, unless you believe radical change immediately is bad. However, you could hate her if you think her elves prolong the war which winds up costing more lives.


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#2535
ModernAcademic

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You know what else is annoying?

Long, pseudo intellectual drivel, and all this about a pixel, fictional character.
Do you realise how immature that is?

 

What a great opinion, given what your avatar is.



#2536
Pasquale1234

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In much the same way were the ME3 endings a home run.


Trying to draw parallels between the reaction to a single follower character in a single game to the culmination of a plotline that took place over the course of three entire games is... quite an exercise.

#2537
dragonagenewbie

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You asked about Gaspard so I put Gaspard things but if you want Celene and Briala stuff, here it is:

 

No i wasnt asking about Gaspard

 

The first time you quoted me i was talking to Lobselvith telling Lob to give me info on Celine and Briala so that i can compare the three of them.  In a few words i said Gaspard was OK, Lob said he wasn't which is fine.  Since it was regarding the throne of Orlais i asked Lob for info about Celene and Briala so that i can compare and see who the lesser of three evils was.



#2538
Xilizhra

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Trying to draw parallels between the reaction to a single follower character in a single game to the culmination of a plotline that took place over the course of three entire games is... quite an exercise.

The point is that being controversial does not make something good.


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#2539
fdrty

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All this stuff with Gaspard and the elves in the book... They should have out more of this in the games. sure, some of it is there, but you really have to search for it and its easy to miss.

 

I don't have a problem with the books being a thing. After reading those short extracts, I might give them a go. It's just a little annoying that crucial information that was in the books seems to be pretty much absent from the games. It's one thing to have nods and easter eggs for book readers, it's another to basically write the game assuming everyone has already read the books.

 

You know what would have been better? Instead of collecting shards out in nowhere, we'd actually gone to the slums of Halamshiral and interacted with the elves there, where we could have seen the effects of the purge. The juxtaposition of the purged alienage and the finery and glamour of the Winter palace would have been a great way to expose the hypocrisy of 'the great game'.



#2540
Pasquale1234

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The point is that being controversial does not make something good.


In this case, that something is a character.

See all the extreme love and hatred toward this character? Page after page of heated discussions? Presumptions about how she thinks, what she'd do in various circumstances, etc.? I'd say that's a pretty effective character.
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#2541
GoldenGail3

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In this case, that something is a character.

See all the extreme love and hatred toward this character? Page after page of heated discussions? Presumptions about how she thinks, what she'd do in various circumstances, etc.? I'd say that's a pretty effective character.

Indeed. 


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#2542
Xilizhra

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In this case, that something is a character.

See all the extreme love and hatred toward this character? Page after page of heated discussions? Presumptions about how she thinks, what she'd do in various circumstances, etc.? I'd say that's a pretty effective character.

Again, we had the exact same thing, moreso, for the ME3 endings.


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#2543
GoldenGail3

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i don't hate Sera, I actually sort of like her, lol. 



#2544
Pasquale1234

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Again, we had the exact same thing, moreso, for the ME3 endings.


You still don't seem to understand the difference between a character and the ending to a 3-game plotline.

I'm out.

#2545
dragonagenewbie

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The point is that being controversial does not make something good.

 

I never played ME3 but only heard about the controversy on the news and game forums.

 

This particular companion controversy though i'm interested in.  I want to make sure that i'm allowed to enjoy these types of companions in future BW games.  Not just Sera but any other character like her.  Sera, Vivienne, Skadge, Gault or whoever.  I dont think thats too much to ask especially when you consider the number of companion slots DAI has.  Its like someone said a page or two ago with people wanting their DAI to be a "grimdark and serious" experience. I can only guess that people want to have a whole roster of super srs companions with which they can have meaningful conversations and who they can romance on a bed covered in rose petals and proclaim their love and admiration for kinda like this

 

https://youtu.be/3xxwR6aSzho?t=1530

 

I mean maybe i'm wrong about other players, like i said i'm just guessing.  But to quote Sera "we cant all be broody beards like Cassandra".



#2546
Xilizhra

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You still don't seem to understand the difference between a character and the ending to a 3-game plotline.

I'm out.

Your mistake is in presupposing that controversy inherently makes a character good, which in turn is an attempt to rob the controversy of its entire point. I don't think that Sera was a great character. I think she was a middling character, with wasted potential, that needed a few more rewrites. Her romance was mostly good, but relatively little else was.



#2547
themikefest

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She's good with a bow



#2548
GoldenGail3

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Your mistake is in presupposing that controversy inherently makes a character good, which in turn is an attempt to rob the controversy of its entire point. I don't think that Sera was a great character. I think she was a middling character, with wasted potential, that needed a few more rewrites. Her romance was mostly good, but relatively little else was.

What about Trepasser? Doesn't she get character development in Trepasser? 



#2549
Xilizhra

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What about Trepasser? Doesn't she get character development in Trepasser? 

In a pretty token sense, but I thought that Trespasser was a poor DLC on the whole.



#2550
GoldenGail3

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In a pretty token sense, but I thought that Trespasser was a poor DLC on the whole.

Well eh, still she did get character development though.