2858 réponses à ce sujet

[IHaveReturned1999]

 Oh really?

And who might you be?

[WardenBlue]

And who might you be?

Myself, that's who 

[IHaveReturned1999]

Reading posts like this make me wonder if you even played this game. Trespasser in particular, but plenty of stuff in the main game (e.g. Solas' romance), made it pretty clear that "elven history" is a bunch of vague and mostly incorrect myths and misunderstandings. Which is hardly something that should be celebrated. Look to the future, not some imagined past.
 

 
Yes, there is massive discrimination against elves in Thedas. Thing is, the answer isn't to wander around pining for something that never was. It's to strike against those who control and perpetuate the system that creates such discrimination, to strike against those that use such racism to divide elves from humanity where in truth there is no meaningful difference between them. To strike against the very people who Sera attacks - the elite, the rulers, the nobility.

There's a saying "Who are you who do not know your history?" History is very important to know so an elf can not only learn about their culture and heritage, but never again to repeat history and do better as a people.

[TobiTobsen]

Did I miss N7's usual rant about humanity's (especially white humans) inherent barbarism? I don't want to waste my popcorn if the show is over already.

[PhroXenGold]

There's a saying "Who are you who do not know your history?" History is very important to know so an elf can not only learn about their culture and heritage, but never again to repeat history and do better as a people.

 

Thing is the Dalish elves don't know their own history so how can they learn from it? A bunch of vague concepts and misremembered myths can't teach ****. (Not to mention the entire idea of learning from history is dubious at best - it can certainly be interesting to learn about history, but given how different circumstances were in the past, its rare there are directly applicable lessons for life today one can learn from history beyond vague overarching concepts).

 

Besides, why should Sera, a person who has nothing to do with the elves of old except genetics, care about their history? The culture she is part of is completely different from that of either Dalish or historical elves.

[vertigomez]

I view the friendship/rivalry system to be exactly the same as approval/disapproval with a little different application of paint to make the game work.

It's still a 2-ended meter. Gaining rivalry does result in losing friendship, and vice-versa. The only difference is that disapproval is now called rivalry, so that when Hawke makes decisions that cut a companion's ideology to the core, there is a gain of "respect" for stepping all over whatever that companion believes in.

DA2 offered a smallish set of companions, some of whom were aligned with the issues presented in the game. They presented disapproval as rivalry/respect to make it work.

Eh, I disagree. I never felt like Hawke was "stepping all over whatever that companion believes in" by disagreeing with them, but to each their own. The devs said they never meant for rivalry to be viewed as the "bad" path, and that's enough for me even if the F/R system doesn't always work mechanically.

With DAI isnt it possible to enable the trial setting (the one that greatly increases approval/disapproval gains) and recruit a companion and making a choice that they greatly disapprove and then having the companion immediately leave? I havent tried DA2 yet but i've read about its friend/rival system and i like how it sounds. I think it would be neat if Bioware or Bethesda (ha yah right) would develop a more in depth friend/rival or approval/disapproval system. Like maybe break it down by category where they/dislike political or big decisions (related to the main game plot) and enough dislike in this causes them to leave. But they also have a personal like/dislike system where if you talk to your comp about something they hate personally like talking about "elfy stuff" then their personal dislike for you goes down but they wont leave the inquisition but they just wont talk to you or they wont open up. I dunno i just made that up on the spot but just anything with a bit more depth and not something like where your choice the destroy the universe gains you -40 dislike while burning a cake that you baked for them earns you -30 dislike.

I have no idea about the trials thing, but I agree that a nuanced system would be better... it's just so difficult to implement! But I like the idea of a Big Decisions meter versus a Personal Liking meter.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Thing is the Dalish elves don't know their own history so how can they learn from it? A bunch of vague concepts and misremembered myths can't teach ****. (Not to mention the entire idea of learning from history is dubious at best - it can certainly be interesting to learn about history, but given how different circumstances were in the past, its rare there are directly applicable lessons for life today one can learn from history beyond vague overarching concepts).

Besides, why should Sera, a person who has nothing to do with the elves of old except genetics, care about their history? The culture she is part of is completely different from that of either Dalish or historical elves.

That's where Solas comes in and teach them their history so the Dalish could learn, and learn from the mistakes from what the Ancient Elves did and how they can become better people. And Sera is beyond repair as this point to where she doesn't want to learn anything, so I leave her in the dark and that's really sad.

[PhroXenGold]

That's where Solas comes in and teach them their history so the Dalish could learn, and learn from the mistakes from what the Ancient Elves did and how they can become better people. And Sera is beyond repair as this point to where she doesn't want to learn anything, so I leave her in the dark and that's really sad.

 

Or they along with every other race in Thedas could just try to build a new better society without constantly worrying about the past. All this crap about elves doing things just serves to reinforce the barriers of racism in society.

 

Sera doesn't want to learn about all the ancient elfy crap because learning it isn't going to solve the problems of massive inequality and oppression in current day Thedas. The only way to do that is to eliminate or at the very least drastically weaken those oppressing both elves and the bulk of humanity - the elite, the nobles etc. Which is exactly what Sera and her Friends are trying to do.

[Heimdall]

Or they along with every other race in Thedas could just try to build a new better society without constantly worrying about the past. All this crap about elves doing things just serves to reinforce the barriers of racism in society.

Sera doesn't want to learn about all the ancient elfy crap because learning it isn't going to solve the problems of massive inequality and oppression in current day Thedas. The only way to do that is to eliminate or at the very least drastically weaken those oppressing both elves and the bulk of humanity - the elite, the nobles etc. Which is exactly what Sera and her Friends are trying to do.

Except they aren't, not really. The Red Jennies aren't revolutionaries. All they really do is serve as a deterrent to abuses of power.

[PhroXenGold]

Except they aren't, not really. The Red Jennies aren't revolutionaries. All they really do is serve as a deterrent to abuses of power.

 

They're not going to be a revolution in themselves, but even deterring such abuses is a step in the right direction. And being an example of the ability to fight against the oppressors might lead to something greater in the future (whether through inspiring further such actions, or being the threat of violence that cause those in power to weaken their grasp). Which is more than can be said for Dalish elves wandering around pining for a past that never was.

[Heimdall]

They're not going to be a revolution in themselves, but even deterring such abuses is a step in the right direction. And being an example of the ability to fight against the oppressors might lead to something greater in the future (whether through inspiring further such actions, or being the threat of violence that cause those in power to weaken their grasp). Which is more than can be said for Dalish elves wandering around pining for a past that never was.

Sera herself is explicitly opposed to overturning the power dynamic, she doesn't see much point to it:

Solas: I do not understand you, Sera. You have no end goal for your organization.
Sera: Nobles get rattled, and people get payback. I play in the middle.
Solas: Why not go all the way? You see injustice, and you have organized a group to fight it. Don't you want to replace it with something better?
Sera: What, just lop off the top? What's that do, except make a new top to frig it all up?
Solas: I...forgive me. You are right. You are fine as you are.
Sera: You hurt my head sometimes, Solas.
Solas: Yes, I have been known to do that.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Or they along with every other race in Thedas could just try to build a new better society without constantly worrying about the past. All this crap about elves doing things just serves to reinforce the barriers of racism in society.

Sera doesn't want to learn about all the ancient elfy crap because learning it isn't going to solve the problems of massive inequality and oppression in current day Thedas. The only way to do that is to eliminate or at the very least drastically weaken those oppressing both elves and the bulk of humanity - the elite, the nobles etc. Which is exactly what Sera and her Friends are trying to do.

I look @ the Dalish Elves' perspective and I understand why they're trying to reclaim their past, because they have been stripped of who they were by humans enslaved them that took away everything from them. That's the worst kind of genocide they have ever suffered by humans, and I won't be surprised that the Chantry have a Vatican library of their own to keep elven history away from them. They know once the elves reclaimed their history they would be great again, and that is why the Chantry wants to keep the systematic of racism to prevent then from reaching their potential for greatness.

[PhroXenGold]

Sera herself is explicitly opposed to overturning the power dynamic, she doesn't see much point to it:
 

 

She's probably right there, in the society they have in Thedas as is, a complete revolution would lead to new rulers much the same as the old. They don't have the concepts for an egalitarian society in place yet. But she and her friends are working to seriously change the power dynamic of society. They're making it such that those oppressing the people will know there are consequences to doing so. Violence - and the threat of violence - to weaken the ruling classes, to give those at the bottom a recourse against those at the top. She might not be trying to replace society with something better, but she sure as hell is trying to make it into something better.

[Pasquale1234]

Is it Merrill's fault that Marethari gave herself to a demon, that would've wiped out her clan if it'd have killed Merrill and Hawke? A clan she had the duty to protect and didn't warn about her plan?
I'm pretty neutral on Merrill, but it's not her fault if her clan and Marethari are/might be dead. It's the Keeper's fault. Her plan was idiotic, to put it mildly. There were far better solutions to stop Merrill to go to the demon. Going with Merril to help overpowering the demon was a far better plan then hers as Well.

That's a tough one. There's fault and then there's responsibility, and I think several parties had their hands on the idiot ball here.

Merrill had plenty of warning - from Marethari and her clan's behaviors toward her - yet she persisted. There were no apparent lines she wouldn't cross in her pursuit to rebuild the eluvian. She clearly knew that what she was doing was dangerous, thus she asked Hawke & friends for backup - thus endangering them, and the world at large if they failed.

Marethari's actions were a direct result of Merrill's... so I'd say that a pretty big chunk of blame for what can happen there belongs to Merrill.

[PhroXenGold]

I look @ the Dalish Elves' perspective and I understand why they're trying to reclaim their past, because they have been stripped of who they were by humans enslaved them that took away everything from them. That's the worst kind of genocide they have ever suffered by humans, and I won't be surprised that the Chantry have a Vatican library of their own to keep elven history away from them. They know once the elves reclaimed their history they would be great again, and that is why the Chantry wants to keep the systematic of racism to prevent then from reaching their potential for greatness.

 

You....really haven't actually paid much attention to the lore in this game have you? The elves weren't great in the past. They were every bit as oppressed under the Evanuris as they are in human dominated Thedas. Arlathan was a slaveocracy that made Tevinter look tame.

 

The Chantry - and the secular powers in Thedas -  are likely perpetuating racism for the same reason those in power perpetuated racism in our society: because it keeps those of their own race not in power distracted. Hatred of elves is a convenient outlet for poor humans, much like hatred of Jews, of Blacks, of foreigners were and indeed still are in real life, as without an "other" to rage against, those without power might start raging against those in power. It's fear yes, but it's not fear of what elves would do if they were free of discrimination, its fear of what humans would do without an easy target.

[IHaveReturned1999]

You....really haven't actually paid much attention to the lore in this game have you? The elves weren't great in the past. They were every bit as oppressed under the Evanuris as they are in human dominated Thedas. Arlathan was a slaveocracy that made Tevinter look tame.
 
The Chantry - and the secular powers in Thedas -  are likely perpetuating racism for the same reason those in power perpetuated racism in our society: because it keeps those of their own race not in power distracted. Hatred of elves is a convenient outlet for poor humans, much like hatred of Jews, of Blacks, of foreigners were and indeed still are in real life, as without an "other" to rage against, those without power might start raging against those in power. It's fear yes, but it's not fear of what elves would do if they were free of discrimination, its fear of what humans would do without an easy target.

But the Jewish people never forgotten their religious traditions, beliefs, and their culture. In fact the German government paid recompense to the Jewish folk after WWII and they remember & honor their Holocaust from Nazi Germany, and their children's children are going to know about their history of what they come from and retain their faith and prospered. So they never forgotten their history.

[Vit246]

Stop arguing with IHaveReturned. He's a known troll who keeps making new accounts like this one.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Stop arguing with IHaveReturned. He's a known troll who keeps making new accounts like this one.

Dude how is it me having a conversation trolling? And is this about a guy that anyone can't stand who gave you guys hell? He's gone dude. He's not even here anymore.

[PhroXenGold]

But the Jewish people never forgotten their religious traditions, beliefs, and their culture. In fact the German government paid recompense to the Jewish folk after WWII and they remember & honor their Holocaust from Nazi Germany, and their children's children are going to know about their history of what they come from and retain their faith and prospered. So they never forgotten their history.

 

Actually, they have forgotten much of their older history and culture due to the dominance of Rabbinical Judaism after the fall of the Temple which resulted in the teachings and beliefs of the most of the myriad of Judaic sects that existed in ancient Israel being lost. But that's neither here nor there, as it's irrelevant to what my post was about.

 

Even if the elves remembered their past, they'd still be oppressed and discriminated against because that discrimination has nothing to do with their history (real or imagined). The racism is due to human authorities seeing an easy target. And Jewish history has absolutely nothing to do with the fact you don't even seem to know the lore from the game you are discussing, a point you didn't respond to in any way.

[Pasquale1234]

She's probably right there, in the society they have in Thedas as is, a complete revolution would lead to new rulers much the same as the old. They don't have the concepts for an egalitarian society in place yet. But she and her friends are working to seriously change the power dynamic of society. They're making it such that those oppressing the people will know there are consequences to doing so. Violence - and the threat of violence - to weaken the ruling classes, to give those at the bottom a recourse against those at the top. She might not be trying to replace society with something better, but she sure as hell is trying to make it into something better.

Since I'm normally a law and order type, I'm pretty surprised about my reaction to some of Sera's antics. They (the lower classes) really don't have any other recourse versus abusive nobles. The only way to get a noble (or anyone in high society) arrested and prosecuted is to convince some other, higher ranking noble to go after them - and the prospects of a lower class nobody making that happen are roughly nil.

What would be glorious would be for the Friends to team up with people like Leliana and Josephine - people who are adept at The Game - to put the most abusive nobles out of business and strengthen those who aren't so awful.

[Wulfram]

Sera herself is explicitly opposed to overturning the power dynamic, she doesn't see much point to it:

That's one of things I dislike most about her. She seems to have the same conservative politics as Vivienne - everyone should stay in their place so I can keep my cosy place at the top.

[PhroXenGold]

Since I'm normally a law and order type, I'm pretty surprised about my reaction to some of Sera's antics. They (the lower classes) really don't have any other recourse versus abusive nobles. The only way to get a noble (or anyone in high society) arrested and prosecuted is to convince some other, higher ranking noble to go after them - and the prospects of a lower class nobody making that happen are roughly nil.

What would be glorious would be for the Friends to team up with people like Leliana and Josephine - people who are adept at The Game - to put the most abusive nobles out of business and strengthen those who aren't so awful.

 

Thing is, The Game is part of the oppression. Look at the events of Masked Empire - nobles cause the massacre of some of the most oppressed people in society as part of the glorified pissing match. Playing it to favour those who are less vicious doesn't solve the underlying problem - that it exists to serve the rulers at the cost of the rest of society. (incidentally, her love for the game is a big part of why I'm not nearly so keen on Leliana as a reformist Divine as many people here - she might free the mages, but she positively revels in a being part of system every bit as oppressive as the Circles). That's not to say that favouring "nicer" nobles would be a bad thing, but it would be a temporary measure at best, especially when they gain as a result of it instead of simply those who excessive abuse the system losing. Better to have people who don't play the Game kill the abusers outside of it. It's a far greater threat to the rest of them when your enemy isn't playing by your rules.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Actually, they have forgotten much of their older history and culture due to the dominance of Rabbinical Judaism after the fall of the Temple which resulted in the teachings and beliefs of the most of the myriad of Judaic sects that existed in ancient Israel being lost. But that's neither here nor there, as it's irrelevant to what my post was about.
 
Even if the elves remembered their past, they'd still be oppressed and discriminated against because that discrimination has nothing to do with their history (real or imagined). The racism is due to human authorities seeing an easy target. And Jewish history has absolutely nothing to do with the fact you don't even seem to know the lore from the game you are discussing, a point you didn't respond to in any way.

Dude just take everything I said with a grain of salt and I'm simply observing.

[Pasquale1234]

Thing is, The Game is part of the oppression. Look at the events of Masked Empire - nobles cause the massacre of some of the most oppressed people in society as part of the glorified pissing match. Playing it to favour those who are less vicious doesn't solve the underlying problem - that it exists to serve the rulers at the cost of the rest of society.

I've not read any of the books, but I've no doubt that The Game has a lot of innocent victims. My thinking is more along the lines of having some insiders actually reform The Game, and change the rules from within - ideally to the point where it would no longer be played.

Who it really serves is the winners. It seems the nobles who play it are also very much in danger from its fallout.
 

(incidentally, her love for the game is a big part of why I'm not nearly so keen on Leliana as a reformist Divine as many people here - she might free the mages, but she positively revels in a being part of system every bit as oppressive as the Circles).

I don't favor Leliana as Divine, either, though it's for other reasons. Maybe Leliana revels in winning and being successful - and The Game happens to be something she's very good at. Also, note that she is very willing to implement reform, changing long-standing rules that have wrought oppression on some members of society.
 

That's not to say that favouring "nicer" nobles would be a bad thing, but it would be a temporary measure at best, especially when they gain as a result of it instead of simply those who excessive abuse the system losing. Better to have people who don't play the Game kill the abusers outside of it. It's a far greater threat to the rest of them when your enemy isn't playing by your rules.

I still think there's something to be gained by pushing for change both inside and outside of the system.

[Xilizhra]

That's a tough one. There's fault and then there's responsibility, and I think several parties had their hands on the idiot ball here.

Merrill had plenty of warning - from Marethari and her clan's behaviors toward her - yet she persisted. There were no apparent lines she wouldn't cross in her pursuit to rebuild the eluvian. She clearly knew that what she was doing was dangerous, thus she asked Hawke & friends for backup - thus endangering them, and the world at large if they failed.

Marethari's actions were a direct result of Merrill's... so I'd say that a pretty big chunk of blame for what can happen there belongs to Merrill.

There is no chunk of blame that can belong to Merrill, as can be discerned by the fact that nothing that Merrill did ever hurt anyone. If it was dangerous, well, that just means that Merrill's precautions were sufficient, and everyone else was a paranoid, potentially murderous asshat.