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[In Exile]

So...how did a thread about hating Sera became Celene vs Gaspard and Merill's mistake?

Usual hot button elf topics. Which is why a lot of people hate sera. She's anti elf, more or less, and is really annoying for lots of people.

[Tidus]

Good question Sniper.

 

Maybe the Sera haters ran out of the negative things to say or her supporters ran out of positive things to say? 

 

I will keep using Sera as I love her banter.  

[straykat]

All City Elves and All Dalish are essentially repeating the same archetype to me. Just executed in different ways. I think if you don't like Sera, there's a chance you probably never liked the main gist of City Elves. Which is kind about individual freedom and identity. While Dalish are always talking the lost past. Like they can't imagine a life without finding it.

 

Even the Warden City Elf was named "Tabris" -- the angel of Free Will. So even if you didn't play that way, the writers were shooting for it. Fenris gets into similar issues, but in a different way. He's lost his memory, and is trapped into thinking like a slave. So he's at a loss at finding a new home yet. But that's what he wants.

 

Sera is just asserting similar things. She lives in the present and just wants to be "Sera". She just knows it. She's confident about it, more or less. I guess that's a bad thing if you emphasize loss and victimhood.

[Jaison1986]

All City Elves and All Dalish are essentially repeating the same archetype to me. Just executed in different ways. I think if you don't like Sera, there's a chance you probably never liked the main gist of City Elves. Which is kind about individual freedom and identity. While Dalish are always talking the lost past. Like they can't imagine a life without finding it.

 

Even the Warden City Elf was named "Tabris" -- the angel of Free Will. So even if you didn't play that way, the writers were shooting for it. Fenris gets into similar issues, but in a different way. He's lost his memory, and is trapped into thinking like a slave. So he's at a loss at finding a new home yet. But that's what he wants.

 

Sera is just asserting similar things. She lives in the present and just wants to be "Sera". She just knows it. She's confident about it, more or less. I guess that's a bad thing if you emphasize loss and victimhood.

 

Or just maybe, Sera rather mocking and disrespectful attitude to anything she doesn't agree with is what pisses off the players. "Hey, so, Mythal was not a real godess Lavellan? Why don't I take a ***** at your beliefs while I laugh at your face. I don't respect you at all*

[straykat]

Or just maybe, Sera rather mocking and disrespectful attitude to anything she doesn't agree with is what pisses off the players. "Hey, so, Mythal was not a real godess Lavellan? Why don't I take a ***** at your beliefs while I laugh at your face. I don't respect you at all*

 

Perhaps the blame lies with others for leading it to that point to begin with. 

 

Besides, at least she didn't want to kill Mythal. You can talk to Morrigan about that.

[Tidus]

Straykat, I fully agree Sera is just Sera and the song says it all about her especially:

 

"She would always like to say "Why change the past when you can own this day?

 

Today she will fight to keep her way  She's a rogue and thief and she will tempt your fate. 

[Jaison1986]

Perhaps the blame lies with others for leading it to that point to begin with. 

 

Besides, at least she didn't want to kill Mythal. You can talk to Morrigan about that.

 

Sorry, but can you elaborate?

[straykat]

Sorry, but can you elaborate?

 

They built a religion around someone who may have not encouraged it in those terms exactly. Blame Dalish teachers for making it more than it is. Not Sera for just seeing what's in front of her eyes.

 

"The People bow too quickly."

[Inkvisiittori]

Or just maybe, Sera rather mocking and disrespectful attitude to anything she doesn't agree with is what pisses off the players. "Hey, so, Mythal was not a real godess Lavellan? Why don't I take a ***** at your beliefs while I laugh at your face. I don't respect you at all*

 

She is like Vivienne. Only nice to you if you agree 100% with her viewpoint of the world. Sera is not really looking for answers or at least she is not interested in opinions that are different from what she wishes to hear. She is ignorant, disrespectful and hypocritical.

[Tidus]

Ink,You mean she is rebellious and can see clinging to a long gone past is useless. The Dalish teaches of a long gone past they hope to restore some day. They're so hung up on the past to see there may not be a future as their clans grow smaller. Lavellan's clan was wiped out-if you choose that path.

 

Lavellan also states the Dalish would be mad over him being called the herald.. 

[Xilizhra]

Ink,You mean she is rebellious and can see clinging to a long gone past is useless. The Dalish teaches of a long gone past they hope to restore some day. They're so hung up on the past to see there may not be a future as their clans grow smaller. Lavellan's clan was wiped out-if you choose that path.

 

Lavellan also states the Dalish would be mad over him being called the herald.. 

If it's so useless, why is she so scared of a romanced Lavellan following it?

[Tidus]

Because clinging to a past is useless since you can't return to it , take it back or bring it back and constantly thinking about can be mentally  unhealthy.. I don't think Sera was scared as much as she was concerned.

[Inkvisiittori]

Ink,You mean she is rebellious and can see clinging to a long gone past is useless. The Dalish teaches of a long gone past they hope to restore some day. They're so hung up on the past to see there may not be a future as their clans grow smaller. Lavellan's clan was wiped out-if you choose that path.

 

Lavellan also states the Dalish would be mad over him being called the herald.. 

 

What should the Dalish do, exactly? Forsake what little remains of their culture to live with the humans as second class citizens, like the city elves do? They are trying to restore what was lost, figure out who they are and where they come from. They are trying to re-learn their culture and language that the humans who enslaved them took away from them. They are seeking knowledge. The ancients elves had so much wisdom and power. I see nothing wrong with trying to regain that. What do the city elves do, in comparison? They submit to the humans who treat them as servants (or worse), they could be free like the dalish but instead they willingly live in the slums of human cities where they have no rights or voice. No hope of better future. They have given up on their heritage, their rights, their freedom. I don't understand why anyone would think that's preferable. 

[Pasquale1234]

She is like Vivienne. Only nice to you if you agree 100% with her viewpoint of the world.

Sera doesn't seem to care much about what you wear or how you wear your hair. Viv is interested in asserting her influence over others; gathering and utilizing personal power. Sera's primary interest seems to be survival, and trying to make things a little better for little people if she can.
 

Sera is not really looking for answers or at least she is not interested in
opinions that are different from what she wishes to hear.

She's not the only one.
 

She is ignorant, disrespectful and hypocritical.

I'll give you the first 2 - but how is she hypocritical?

[Tidus]

Ink,Living with a false dream and clinging to "some day" hopes is useless and does nothing. The Clans stay apart why not come together and rebuild that lost "kingdom"?

 

.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

Unless the Dalish can understand the origins, the actions and motivations of their past, they can't move forward. They can't move forward because each clan holds conflicting and fragmentary threads of their history. Due to the change in lore in DAI, it is even more uncertain what it is that they do when they gather every ten years or if they still have that kind of gathering to share and exchange. 

 

If they are to abandon their culture, their past. If they do throw out everything, they would have to conform to human customs, in a way like those who joined the qunari. They would think and behave like a human than a Dalish. They would deny they're any different from humans. They would be subsumed into a culture not their own.

 

They can choose to fight for a place which they can hold to call their own. All of the lands are mostly under human control. They haven't done that because they have no leader to unify them, they are too weak against the humans and they're constantly forced to be on the move. The land ceded to the Dalish in Ferelden (DAO) is under contention and it is doubtful they can even hold on to it; I'm not sure this one is canon but even if it isn't, still, it highlights the fact that the Dalish have no permanent home in Thedas.

 

This is about to change for the ones who believe and follow Solas.   

[Dutchess]

All City Elves and All Dalish are essentially repeating the same archetype to me. Just executed in different ways. I think if you don't like Sera, there's a chance you probably never liked the main gist of City Elves. Which is kind about individual freedom and identity. While Dalish are always talking the lost past. Like they can't imagine a life without finding it.

 

Even the Warden City Elf was named "Tabris" -- the angel of Free Will. So even if you didn't play that way, the writers were shooting for it. Fenris gets into similar issues, but in a different way. He's lost his memory, and is trapped into thinking like a slave. So he's at a loss at finding a new home yet. But that's what he wants.

 

Sera is just asserting similar things. She lives in the present and just wants to be "Sera". She just knows it. She's confident about it, more or less. I guess that's a bad thing if you emphasize loss and victimhood.

 

City Elves aren't about rejecting being elves or "elfy", however. DAO clearly showed they identify as elves and purposefully differentiate themselves from "shems". They use what few elven words they still know. Most Alienages have a vhenadahl, a "tree of the people", and while it apparently differs with how much reverence it's treated, it still matters as a symbol. They also have a "hahren" acting as their elder and which is a role unique to their culture as City Elves. 

 

Overall City Elves will be more individualistic than the Dalish, simply because the Dalish live in relatively small groups and really have to rely on one another to survive, but the Alienage elves still form an elven community. Rejecting the authority of humans and especially nobles is pretty common for them but Sera is pissing on things the more average City Elf would hold dear. I personally would like to see more of a proud City Elf, one who doesn't look down on himself and his people because humans force them to live in poor conditions. Elves like Shianni.

[Inkvisiittori]

Shianni was great. Too bad she wasn't a companion.

[Pasquale1234]

Sera is just asserting similar things. She lives in the present and just wants to be "Sera". She just knows it. She's confident about it, more or less. I guess that's a bad thing if you emphasize loss and victimhood.

I think it might be fair to say that Sera doesn't use her race as any part of her identity. IOW, she isn't interested in identity politics.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Celene really isn't any better... she so quickly resorts to burning the alienage only to protect her "image" and repeatedly shows she has no regard for actual life with the ease she orders the deaths of innocents to placate her needs in the Game. Celene is as evil and reprehensible as Gaspard without the strange sense of honour that Gaspard actually shows.

I used to think Celene was someone that played the Game only because she had to and was not a terrible person... The Masked Empire completely ended that delusion.

I believe that Celene is a malignant narcissist because not only she killed Briala's parents without showing any remorse, but want to shed blood upon the elven people who were frightened and angry of humans antagonizing them. So instead of bringing the criminals to justice, she wants to start a massacre upon the blameless. She was probably in the theater thinking "I gave those knife-ears education and jobs and this is how they repay my kindness by rebelling? I'm going to teach those knife-ears a lesson not to fight against their masters." She is nothing but a psychopathic, manipulative, irresponsible, racist woman is just far worse than Gaspard. I'm glad I've killed her @ the ball.

[Barquiel]

1. She was very inexperienced and looked to Cullen and Cass for guidance.  They both preferred Gaspard. (Right?  I know Cass did but I'm not sure about Cullen come to think of it)

Cassandra greatly approves of Briala and Celene reconciling, I think she's only against Celene ruling alone. Anyway, listening to the two people who don't even want to be there...I don't know I follow Josephine's advice here, she's the adept politician and diplomat.

[Vit246]

I'll give you the first 2 - but how is she hypocritical?

 

Hmm....I'll put it this way. She's kinda doing the same thing she hate the Dalish for, only she has no self-awareness about it. She hates any elf (Dalish and City) that has a preconceived idea of how elfy they should be, and at the same time she also has a idea of how elfy they should be, which is to be not elfy at all and be "just people", whatever that means in her head. She constanly compalins

"They're so close-minded" 

"They're so unaccepting of people different from them"

"They're so 'us-against-them' about people different from them"

Any elf that doesn't meet her standards on elfyness warrants her ricidule and shaming for not being the right kind of elf. But if you're a culturally Andrastian humanish, or a infantile dwarf, or a exotic Qunari, or an uneducated British chav like her, you're alright in her books. She seems to think she's inherently more tolerant and better because she embraces human culture and non-elfy elves and totally rejects elfy culture

 

EDIT

Elfy culture is for losers because they lost. Only losers pick elfy. All other culture is for winners because they're winning. All other races can be happy being themselves but elves should just be plain old "people" with nothing distinctive. Apparently race has nothing to do with anything in Thedas. Elves are no worse off than humans, dwarves, and qunari. If you're proud to be an elf or you believe in solidarity, than you're stupid. And Sera is not stupid. Sera is a winner. Sera is better than you. Sera's god is better than your false demon gods. Sera's English language is real and your Elvish is gibberish equivalent to fart noises. Sera is better than you because she hates being elfy and you don't. You're an elf who sees nothing wrong with being reasonably elfy and you don't ignore the reality of elves in Thedas.

 

And one more thing. Sera demands you to renounce your culture basically in favor and obeisance to her culture and one god. If you don't do it, you're not accepting Sera's version of elfyness and you're being the intolerant bigot.

Modifié par Vit246, 25 juillet 2016 - 07:24 .

[In Exile]

Or just maybe, Sera rather mocking and disrespectful attitude to anything she doesn't agree with is what pisses off the players. "Hey, so, Mythal was not a real godess Lavellan? Why don't I take a ***** at your beliefs while I laugh at your face. I don't respect you at all*

That's just the elf thing. I'm not trying to make light of it - but it's very clearly targeted at a specific group - Dalish elves who drink the Kool aid.

[In Exile]

If it's so useless, why is she so scared of a romanced Lavellan following it?

She's scared of anything supernatural being true. She's particularly scared of elven things being true because of how much they challenge her beliefs, but she's totally scared of even the Maker really being real. She makes this point a fair bit.

[In Exile]

Unless the Dalish can understand the origins, the actions and motivations of their past, they can't move forward. They can't move forward because each clan holds conflicting and fragmentary threads of their history. Due to the change in lore in DAI, it is even more uncertain what it is that they do when they gather every ten years or if they still have that kind of gathering to share and exchange.

If they are to abandon their culture, their past. If they do throw out everything, they would have to conform to human customs, in a way like those who joined the qunari. They would think and behave like a human than a Dalish. They would deny they're any different from humans. They would be subsumed into a culture not their own.

They can choose to fight for a place which they can hold to call their own. All of the lands are mostly under human control. They haven't done that because they have no leader to unify them, they are too weak against the humans and they're constantly forced to be on the move. The land ceded to the Dalish in Ferelden (DAO) is under contention and it is doubtful they can even hold on to it; I'm not sure this one is canon but even if it isn't, still, it highlights the fact that the Dalish have no permanent home in Thedas.

This is about to change for the ones who believe and follow Solas.

They don't care about the actual past. They care about their fantasy past. Solas makes this point when he talks about his experience with them. We see this with Marethari, and their obsession with the Dales rather than Elvhenan.