2858 réponses à ce sujet

[Pasquale1234]

But if you're a culturally Andrastian humanish, or a dwarven, or a exotic Qunari, or an uneducated British chav like her, you're alright in her books. She seems to think she's inherently more tolerant and better because she embraces human culture and non-elfy elves and totally rejects elfy culture

She does seem to be okay with others who aren't trying to tell her how to be. She gets on well with a Vasoth Inquisitor, and I think IB, but I have to wonder how she'd do with someone trying to preach the Qun at her.

She does have a sore spot where elves are concerned, probably because she's had to deal with a lot of people expecting her to be more 'elfy' or trying to push her to be more 'elfy'. I'm not convinced that makes her a hypocrite.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

She does seem to be okay with others who aren't trying to tell her how to be. She gets on well with a Vasoth Inquisitor, and I think IB, but I have to wonder how she'd do with someone trying to preach the Qun at her.

She does have a sore spot where elves are concerned, probably because she's had to deal with a lot of people expecting her to be more 'elfy' or trying to push her to be more 'elfy'. I'm not convinced that makes her a hypocrite.

 

She does have kind of a hypocritical attitude towards elven culture. She believes that (unlike other cultures) an elven identity is inherently prejudiced. It's why she breaks up with you for believing in the Creators or believing elven history is important. She interprets all the negativity as being fundamentally inseparably from being "efly" so she then associates you with prejudice, regardless of how you actually feel or what you said to her.

 

 She disapproves of elves being proud of being elves, but not of dwarves, qunari or humans being the same. In the "An Elf/Dwarf/Qunari will stand for you all" speech at Skyhold, there is only one version she disapproves of. 

[In Exile]

She does have kind of a hypocritical attitude towards elven culture. She believes that (unlike other cultures) an elven identity is inherently prejudiced. It's why she breaks up with you for believing in the Creators or believing elven history is important. She interprets all the negativity as being fundamentally inseparably from being "efly" so she then associates you with prejudice, regardless of how you actually feel or what you said to her.

 

 She disapproves of elves being proud of being elves, but not of dwarves, qunari or humans being the same. In the "An Elf/Dwarf/Qunari will stand for you all" speech at Skyhold, there is only one version she disapproves of. 

 

Is it elven culture, or Dalish culture? I've never gotten the sense of how she reacts to CEs. She hates Solas, but I find in a different way from how she seems to hate Dalish related elfy-stuff. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

She said she hated the Tree of the People in her alienage. She also says that most elves she knows are "too elfy" which presumably would mostly be city elves. When you first meet, she is disappointed by the very sight of you if you are an elf. I don't think she sees the City Elves as being fundamentally different in terms of "elfiness" (especially given the word she uses for it), just that the Dalish are more elfy.

[In Exile]

She said she hated the Tree of the People in her alienage. She also says that most elves she knows are "too elfy" which presumably would mostly be city elves. When you first meet, she is disappointing by the very sight of you if you are an elf. I don't think she sees the City Elves as being fundamentally different in terms of "elfiness" (especially given the word she uses for it), just that the Dalish are more elfy.

 

I found her dislike of CEs to be different - she kind of sees them as being pathetic, basically crying about being victims without doing much about it. I never took her along to the winter palace, but she seems to hate Briala too? So maybe you are right. 

[Pasquale1234]

She does have kind of a hypocritical attitude towards elven culture. She believes that (unlike other cultures) an elven identity is inherently prejudiced. It's why she breaks up with you for believing in the Creators or believing elven history is important. She interprets all the negativity as being fundamentally inseparably from being "efly" so she then associates you with prejudice, regardless of how you actually feel or what you said to her.
 
 She disapproves of elves being proud of being elves, but not of dwarves, qunari or humans being the same. In the "An Elf/Dwarf/Qunari will stand for you all" speech at Skyhold, there is only one version she disapproves of.

Disclaimer: There's a lot of game content I've yet to see, so I kind of have to take other people's word for it.

Hypocrisy usually involves some pretense of having some socially approved trait that one doesn't actually possess.

I think what people are saying here is that she prejudges other elves as having certain 'elfy' predispositions and doesn't appreciate it when others do that to her. It's a character flaw to be sure, but I'm not sure it qualifies as hypocrisy.

[Shechinah]

Disclaimer: There's a lot of game content I've yet to see, so I kind of have to take other people's word for it.

Hypocrisy usually involves some pretense of having some socially approved trait that one doesn't actually possess.

I think what people are saying here is that she prejudges other elves as having certain 'elfy' predispositions and doesn't appreciate it when others do that to her. It's a character flaw to be sure, but I'm not sure it qualifies as hypocrisy.

 
That does count as hypocrisy in my opinion since the simple definition of hypocrisy is; "the behavior of people who do things that they tell other people not to do."

 

I think it was intended as a character flaw by the writers. I made this post where I brought it up previously so I thought I'd requote.

 

Yeah, I see it more as Sera rejecting the notion that she has to have a certain kind of cultural identity because of her race. I really like that aspect of her character when it is done well. I recall liking the bit she has about not wanting it to become them and us because she likes them.

I see it as intentional that she's doing the same thing to elves that she hates some of them for doing: being judgement about others including due to their race as well as their cultural and theological beliefs. I believe I recall her demonstrating this with the Dalish Inquisitor before the latter has even said a word at the inn in Haven.

Some elves has come to expect a certain kind of attitude from all humans because of what they've experienced in the past from some of them and Sera has come to expect a certain kind of attitude from all elves because of what she's experienced in the past from some of them.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Disclaimer: There's a lot of game content I've yet to see, so I kind of have to take other people's word for it.Hypocrisy usually involves some pretense of having some socially approved trait that one doesn't actually possess.I think what people are saying here is that she prejudges other elves as having certain 'elfy' predispositions and doesn't appreciate it when others do that to her. It's a character flaw to be sure, but I'm not sure it qualifies as hypocrisy.

It's not hypocrisy it's willful ignorance. After the quest for the Temple of Mythal with my elven Inquisitor, Sera was pissed off that the Chantry was built on a lie and she want to believe a lie, and wants to believe that the elves were demon worshippers instead of looking for the truth. She's willfully a stupid person.

Modifié par IHaveReturned1999, 23 juillet 2016 - 03:08 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It's not hypocrisy it's willful ignorance. After the quest for the Temple of Mythal with my elven Inquisitor, Sera was pissed off that the Chantry was a lie and she want to believe a lie, and wants to believe that the elves were demon worshippers instead of looking for the truth. She's willfully a stupid person.

Where did the Temple of Mythal quest say that the Chantry was a lie? The only religion addressed in that quest is that of the Elven Pantheon. The Elven Pantheon existing in some capacity doesn't mean the Maker is a lie, especially since in the Elvhen religion there is a creator deity even above the Creators, and it was that deity who created the world and the Creators. And as we learn in Trespasser, Sera has good reason to not support the Creators since the Evanuris were not actual gods and instead just some of the worst people in Thedas' history. 

[Kabraxal]

It's not hypocrisy it's willful ignorance. After the quest for the Temple of Mythal with my elven Inquisitor, Sera was pissed off that the Chantry was a lie and she want to believe a lie, and wants to believe that the elves were demon worshippers instead of looking for the truth. She's willfully a stupid person.

 

The Temple of Mythal made no direct contradictions of Andrastean faith.  It only proved that these "Creators" did exist in some form.  Hell, if anything, the game did more to nod towards the Maker actually existing than it did to contradict it.  As Sera said, there was a city in the fade, it had a throne, and the thrones means butts in it.  I think she is more terrified that the story of the taint's origins is even close to truth than the elven legends being true, because then she probably has to wonder if the rest is true, in that the Maker has turned his back on the world, leaving them to fend for themselves. 

 

And let's be clear, both revelations scare her.  She isn't reacting to the elven revelation as a true "hahaha you idiots!" moment.  She reacts in fear, completely unsure what to expect at that point.  Which is actually refreshing to see in a fantasy game.  We don't see them stoically accepting these revelations.  We don't see them taking a breath then smiling or laughing it off.  We see a lot of characters shaken to their core, questioning, wondering, and some downright close to hiding under a bed because these concepts are so world shattering and suddenly real that they can't simply take them as simple allegory.  There is something concrete.  There really is something scratching at the closet wall and who knows if it will want to hug you or devour you whole.

 

Sera's reaction is actually quite poignant and refreshing. 

[IHaveReturned1999]

Where did the Temple of Mythal quest say that the Chantry was a lie? The only religion addressed in that quest is that of the Elven Pantheon. The Elven Pantheon existing in some capacity doesn't mean the Maker is a lie, especially since in the Elvhen religion there is a creator deity even above the Creators, and it was that deity who created the world and the Creators. And as we learn in Trespasser, Sera has good reason to not support the Creators since the Evanuris were not actual gods and instead just some of the worst people in Thedas' history.

If I found out that the elves were the **** that they were considered as gods and seen this for myself, I would be happy and start questioning my beliefs and embracing my heritage. But instead she wants to retain a faith of a make believe god and wants to be ignorant. And those are the type of people you have to leave behind.

Modifié par IHaveReturned1999, 23 juillet 2016 - 02:16 .

[Shechinah]

If I found out that the elves were the **** that they were considered as gods and seen this for myself, I would be happy and start questioning my beliefs and embracing my heritage. But instead she ants to retain a faith of a make believe god and wants to be an ignorant.

 

So basically, Andrastian faith was not called into question by the discoveries at the Temple of Mythal: you just think Sera should have changed her religious beliefs and culture because there were elves at the temple that worshipped the elven gods and were remnants of a past empire that was brought down by the elves themselves.

 

Why would this appeal to Sera, a person who did not care about this even if the ancient elves were great and stuff because it was in the past?

 

Sera can learn that the ancient elves kept slaves and branded them to honor their gods so that would likely not endear the past to her. She dosen't care for magic and is downright scared of it so the idea of no veil and lots of magic would likely not be something she'd be fond of either. 

 

Look at it from the perspective of a person in modern times looking back on a people from ancient times; the people that I descent from did impressive things but discovering these feats does not make me want to change my culture and religious beliefs to that of theirs and I know much more about the ancient culture and history of my people than the elves and subsequently the audience knows of the ancient culture and history of the elves.
 

[In Exile]

Well, there's lots in DA:I that contradicts the actual doctrine of the Chantry, and depending on who you make Divine, a bunch of it gets thrown out anyway. I don't see how we can say, on the one hand, the Dalish faith (even with what Solas tells us) is invalidated per se because their doctrine is wrong, while at the same time saying that an Andrastians are not necessarily wrong even though their doctrine has been torn to shreds. 

 

But I wanted to make a different point. Sera's point about "demons" is incoherent nonsense. We don't see anything in the temple to suggest that the elven gods are actual gods. But we don't see anything to make us think, say, the Well of Sorrows is anything but some elvhen magic we don't understand. The demon point is out of left field and has no connection to anything. Hell, we don't even meet a spirit. Sera sounds like she's lost touch with reality. 

[The Elder King]

Where did the Temple of Mythal quest say that the Chantry was a lie? The only religion addressed in that quest is that of the Elven Pantheon. The Elven Pantheon existing in some capacity doesn't mean the Maker is a lie, especially since in the Elvhen religion there is a creator deity even above the Creators, and it was that deity who created the world and the Creators. And as we learn in Trespasser, Sera has good reason to not support the Creators since the Evanuris were not actual gods and instead just some of the worst people in Thedas' history.

The reveal of the Elven gods being real doesn't mean the Maker isn't real, but it's a start in the path of questioning if he's as the Chantry/Andraste envisioned him to, or if he's something different. A further step is Fen'harel's actions in the past.
It doesn't mean that the Maker isn't real, it might just mean that he didn't do all the Chant attributed him to have done, or it can be that the Chant is a distorted version of Fen'harel and his actions, as the dalish's beliefs were a distorted version of the truth.
It might be more clear if/when They reveal what the Old gods truly are, and Who sealed them underground.

[IHaveReturned1999]

The reveal of the Elven gods being real doesn't mean the Maker isn't real, but it's a start in the path of questioning if he's as the Chantry/Andraste envisioned him to, or if he's something different. A further step is Fen'harel's actions in the past.
It doesn't mean that the Maker isn't real, it might just mean that he didn't do all the Chant attributed him to have done, or it can be that the Chant is a distorted version of Fen'harel and his actions, as the dalish's beliefs were a distorted version of the truth.
It might be more clear if/when They reveal what the Old gods truly are, and Who sealed them underground.

Come on its obviously the Chantry started as a crazed cult of a make believe phallic symbol that doesn't even exist, it seems to me that the Chantry is started of as a power hungry religious sect to indoctrinate people to believe the lie of what this Maker was. It is a tool for power over people. That's all it is.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Come on its obviously the Chantry started as a crazed cult of a make believe phallic symbol that doesn't even exist, it seems to me that the Chantry is started of as a power hungry religious sect to indoctrinate people to believe the lie of what this Maker was. It is a tool for power over people. That's all it is.

How is it obvious the Maker doesn't exist? Bioware certainly hasn't done that, since on multiple occasions they have stated they never plan to have the Maker revealed as real or fake. You have no evidence the Maker doesn't exist, just like those on the other side have no evidence that he does.

Hence the whole concept of faith.

[IHaveReturned1999]

How is it obvious the Maker doesn't exist? Bioware certainly hasn't done that, since on multiple occasions they have stated they never plan to have the Maker revealed as real or fake. You have no evidence the Maker doesn't exist, just like those on the other side have no evidence that he does.
Hence the whole concept of faith.

Ah, faith: the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It was my understanding that there was no religion of the Maker until Andraste. Hmm.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Ah, faith: the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It was my understanding that there was no religion of the Maker until Andraste. Hmm.

No, there were faiths that involved the Maker since before humans migrated to Thedas. Andraste merely brought it back after centuries or millennia of humans abandoning worship of the Maker for worship of the Old Gods. Even the magisters who worshiped the Old Gods knew of the Maker, since otherwise they would never have attempted the trip to the Golden City to usurp him.

[IHaveReturned1999]

No, there were faiths that involved the Maker since before humans migrated to Thedas. Andraste merely brought it back after centuries or millennia of humans abandoning worship of the Maker for worship of the Old Gods. Even the magisters who worshiped the Old Gods knew of the Maker, since otherwise they would never have attempted the trip to the Golden City to usurp him.

Hey, that sounds interesting. I'd like to read that for myself. Send me that link.

[Illegitimus]

That's because she has no one to teach her about elven history, to know what they've come from and how great elves used to be. 

 

That is of course nonsense.  She has had people try to do that.  She's not buying into any of it.  It's why she hopes the Dalish Inquisitor isn't too "elfy".  It's why she shuts down Solas's overture.  Sera considers it foolish to spend time thinking about history.  And if she walked through one of those Redcliffe time bubbles and found herself in Arlathan's empire, she'd instantly gravitate to the lowest, most oppressed stratum of their society and start pushing against the ruling class.  

 

 

 

[Illegitimus]

No, there were faiths that involved the Maker since before humans migrated to Thedas. Andraste merely brought it back after centuries or millennia of humans abandoning worship of the Maker for worship of the Old Gods. Even the magisters who worshiped the Old Gods knew of the Maker, since otherwise they would never have attempted the trip to the Golden City to usurp him.

 

I'm pretty sure the Magisters went there because they thought it was the seat of power of the Old Gods.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Ancient Tevinters apparently believed the Golden City was the seat of the Old Gods' power, but had been created by a Maker at some point in the past. Unless Bioware changed their minds about that bit of lore.

[ModernAcademic]

If the Dalish were honest, they woudn't resort to turning another race into a convenient scapegoat for their misery.

Their tradition is based on a lie about humans and they are to blame for the blood on their hands.

 

 

 

As for Gaspard, the reason he dislikes elves is the same every Orlesian aristocrat does: they let people die at the hands of darkspawn during the Second Blight after they promised they would help protect the innocent in return to the Empire granting them lands to live (the Dales).

 

It should also be noted the Dalish hunt down every human that accidentally bumps into their clan while wandering into Orlesian territory. If you have any doubts, just remember what your Dalish friend tells your PC when you meet the lost humans in Origins near the ruins: we can't let them live or they'll tell other humans where our clan is.

 

 

 

IMO, the elves aren't victims. They're predators, just like everyone else. If they've been subjugated into slavery, so have countless humans, dwarves, Qunari and other unfortunate innocents captured by the Tevinter Imperium. However, having such a past is no excuse to teach your children to be xenophobes and legitimize the MURDER of humans based on a twisted sense of historical justice. Elves don't have that right. Not when they were once enslaved by their own kin - the Evanuris - in an empire built on slavery, blood magic and supremacist ideals - Arlathan - and who ultimately brought upon their own destruction. 

 

Hating humans is just a convenient excuse to justify not taking responsibility for their actions in the Second Blight and wanting to live according to non-human values. If they wish to build their own culture, no problem. But an invisible line has been crossed when they validate that sentiment by turning humans into monsters at the eyes of elven children and blaming them of crimes they DID NOT commit. 

 

In short, they LIE to their children and teach them it's alright to hate and kill a race, so long as it's the "right" race. That's dishonest and unethical. It's plain racism and xenophobia. No amount of suffering can justify such an atrocious philosophy. And what's worse: generations of Dalish elves have grown up with a lie and believing their ancestors are proud of them for it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If the Dalish were honest, they woudn't resort to turning another race into a convenient scapegoat for their misery.

Their tradition is based on a lie about humans and they are to blame for the blood on their hands.

 

 

 

As for Gaspard, the reason he dislikes elves is the same every Orlesian aristocrat does: they let people die at the hands of darkspawn during the Second Blight after they promised they would help protect the innocent in return to the Empire granting them lands to live (the Dales).

 

It should also be noted the Dalish hunt down every human that accidentally bumps into their clan while wandering into Orlesian territory. If you have any doubts, just remember what your Dalish friend tells your PC when you meet the lost humans in Origins near the ruins: we can't let them live or they'll tell other humans where our clan is.

 

 

 

IMO, the elves aren't victims. They're predators, just like everyone else. If they've been subjugated into slavery, so have countless humans, dwarves, Qunari and other unfortunate innocents captured by the Tevinter Imperium. However, having such a past is no excuse to teach your children to be xenophobes and legitimize the MURDER of humans based on a twisted sense of historical justice. Elves don't have that right. Not when they were once enslaved by their own kin - the Evanuris - in an empire built on slavery, blood magic and supremacist ideals - Arlathan - and who ultimately brought upon their own destruction. 

 

Hating humans is just a convenient excuse to justify not taking responsibility for their actions in the Second Blight and wanting to live according to non-human values. If they wish to build their own culture, no problem. But an invisible line has been crossed when they validate that sentiment by turning humans into monsters at the eyes of elven children and blaming them of crimes they DID NOT commit. 

 

In short, they LIE to their children and teach them it's alright to hate and kill a race, so long as it's the "right" race. That's dishonest and unethical. It's plain racism and xenophobia. No amount of suffering can justify such an atrocious philosophy. And what's worse: generations of Dalish elves have grown up with a lie and believing their ancestors are proud of them for it.

 

So I believe you've been corrected at least three times about Orlais granting the elves the Dales. I assume you're going to to continue ignoring future ones? 

[IHaveReturned1999]

That is of course nonsense.  She has had people try to do that.  She's not buying into any of it.  It's why she hopes the Dalish Inquisitor isn't too "elfy".  It's why she shuts down Solas's overture.  Sera considers it foolish to spend time thinking about history.  And if she walked through one of those Redcliffe time bubbles and found herself in Arlathan's empire, she'd instantly gravitate to the lowest, most oppressed stratum of their society and start pushing against the ruling class.

I meant no one teach her about elven history when she was a child and obviously she doesn't want to identify being an elf, because they're the oppressed but rather relate to the humans. That is the symptom of racial oppression of a people that leads to self hatred.