2858 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

no idea i kill him every damn time, trust an assassin hired to kill you? that would be like trying to say sera doesn't put people in danger for her own selfish goals when she leads you into two ambushes.

I guess he's pretty trustworthy then, since she doesn't put people in danger. Those people are already in it, and they ask for help. Again, she doesn't have a spy network like Leliana, that's not how Red Jenny works. She has people that want a noble taken down a peg that contact her to do it. Of course, this is all explained in game, when you recruit her, and even moreso in Haven, if you press her about her "people". She was wrong about one thing though, apparently it is too complicated, I mean, a lot of people here just don't get it.

[Brass_Buckles]

I started out kind of annoyed by Sera, then I sort of liked her when she started to reveal she had a bit of depth behind her and wasn't just a sociopathic murderer, and then something she said made me truly dislike her.

 

Basically, I romanced Solas, and got the vallaslin removed.  When my Lavellan discussed this with Sera and mentioned how sad and hurt she was, Sera just laughed at her and mocked her.  I don't care how crazy or hardcore or whatever you think you are, that's not how a friend behaves.  Even if Sera thinks the Dalish are a bunch of idiots, you'd think she could spare some empathy for someone who's actually gone out of her way to be friends, despite how different you are from one another.

 

Up until that point I was kind of on the fence; she had some endearing moments to go along with the murder and the foul mouth and the close-mindedness.  Now I just don't like her.  You don't make fun of your friends when they're down.  That's just not something you do.

 

Edited to add:  That said, I don't hate her, but next time I play an elf, she's not staying in my Inquisition.  Current playthrough character was considerably nicer than future playthrough character, and was able to forgive.

[Vyndral]

That his influence and or assistance may have been more valuable to me than her random people and pranks. We'll never know, cause you know..narrative reasons and stuff. Personally I would have liked the opportunity to kill him myself or keep him as an agent and lose her. Maybe she turns into an enemy of the Inquisition, would have made her more interesting to me.

I've said it before (maybe even in this thread) I'll say it again. This whole scene is why I am slowly being pushed away from these games. In the past maybe all these are options. Do I kill him right away, for attacking me? Do I let Sera kill him, for her friends? Do I stop her and enlist him maybe gaining a power point, and losing Sera? The story doesn't change at all, he is a throw away character. But now instead of being stuck in a crap scene I can't control, I get to decide how things go. The whole scene is crap because you can't touch it, you are forced to watch it play out, because 'story'.

So honestly I give Sera a pass, on anything that happens because I would have killed him. So I can see why it pisses of people who would have used him. But honestly it is all on BW for making a crap scene you can't touch even though you are the most powerful person in the scene.

[robertthebard]

Wut.
 
The reason Sera isn't dismissive of Andrastianism is that she believes in Andraste. To the point that she makes fun of all other religions and people who believe in them for being "stupid". After Temple of Mythal:
 
"You don't believe anything from Mythal?"
 
"'Course not.What, I should believe all that stuff, because Elves? I mean it was impressive and all, makes the Dalish look like ****** for livin' in the woods but so what? There's can't be a bunch of gods and The Maker. Don't matter how much or little you believe those don't fit. So, call me stupid, but I believe the stuff not made up by dead people who failed; Mythal is a ruin full of demons. I mean, it just makes sense right?"
 
"The evidence is hard to ignore. I believe it."
 
"No, now you're stupid. You can't think that because it's stupid."

Thank you, that was exactly my point. She's Andrastian, and dismissive of the Elven pantheon. She's been Andrastian, and dismissive of the elven pantheon since we met. Since when is being consistent with your religious beliefs being a hypocrite? Did we change the meaning of the word to suit BSN? It's not the first time that I've been asked to rewrite the English language to support a position here. Given the evidence we have, she's right, too.

So, how many of the Elven Gods existed solely through possession of mortals? What beings do exist that way, in the mortal realm? Demons and Spirits. Until we meet Cole, they are the only beings that possess mortals to exist outside of the Fade. My examples? Connor and Anders? Did I make them up to support my argument, or are they very real people in the lore? We can extend the demon example to all of the abominations we fought in the first two games, so really, there's a fairly well documented history to support what Sera believes. Even with the Well of Sorrows, we're left with pure speculation that Mythal and I can't ever remember his name are anything more than spirits. It was left vague, and I subject that it was left that way intentionally. Given what we do know, however, Sera is absolutely right to believe that they are nothing but demons, since the lay person isn't exactly up on "Hey, there are other spirits in the Fade. That's a mage thing, and, what do you know, Sera's not a mage.

[Bann Duncan]

You can't act as if society is postracial when it's not. Sera tries, but that just makes you ignorant in a different way and puts the cart before the horse.

 

Also, Celene and Gaspard do everything bad that Briala does, except moreso and harder (especially Gaspard, who started the war to begin with), yet Sera doesn't disapprove of helping them. That, and the fact that she only disapproves of an Inquisitor who wants to make a good example for elvenkind (when she approves of a dwarf or qunari Inquisitor playing racial politics) are two things that make me suspect that she's actually racist instead of just failing to be postracial.

 

Another great example is the speech you can give upon being made Inquisitor where you say you're an elf but you're standing up for everyone together.

 

"Sera disapproves"

 

What a surprise.

[Ekliane]

Why do a lot of people duplicate threads over and over again ?

[Pewps]

She's unattractive. Large nose, ugly hair cut, eyes are spread too far apart. Her voice and unfocused manner of speech are grating. She's ignorant and has ignorant opinions. And she's largely irrelevant to the Inquisition on the whole. She's just a random thief that wants to tag along.

[KaiserShep]

Why do a lot of people duplicate threads over and over again ?

 

The fan convoy needs as many trucks as possible, apparently.

[Tevinter Soldier]

I guess he's pretty trustworthy then, since she doesn't put people in danger. Those people are already in it, and they ask for help. Again, she doesn't have a spy network like Leliana, that's not how Red Jenny works. She has people that want a noble taken down a peg that contact her to do it. Of course, this is all explained in game, when you recruit her, and even moreso in Haven, if you press her about her "people". She was wrong about one thing though, apparently it is too complicated, I mean, a lot of people here just don't get it.

 

oh i'm sorry i remember kicking back doing my own thing before she lured me into 2 ambushes and got a bunch of people killed.

its called taking responsibility for your own actions, i went along with her crazy so i'm partly to blame. first time i followed her stupid letter drops ended up having to kill a bunch of people over a plan that apparently nobody knows anything about.

second i got people killed for taking her word that things would work out that nobody would get hurt.

 

oh but people were in danger, here's a hint when a buildings burning down you don't drive a truck through the evac point and tell the victims of your insane actions to toughen up. she doesn't get off scot free just because she doesn't think things through.

 

what you fail to address is people turn to her for help. just by doing so places them in danger her ill thought out plans endanger them even more. She endangers people with her stupid game and thus becomes just as reckless and self serving as the nobles shes against.

 

Just look at the result of her "march" i can take responsibility for part i played so can the noble we're working things out after the unpleasantness is dealt with.

Instead of realising this happened due to the actions of all parties involved, sera doesn't want to deal with the fact she just got a bunch of peasants killed.

 

the little people shes so worried about? nope lets beat a man to death and then sook it up when you get reamed for murdering a man.

It's so simple all the people who die is just a thing, never her fault. 

 

when people place their trust in you come to you for help you have a responsibility to look after them, not endanger people's lives so you can bludgeon idiots to death. and thats what you fail to acknowledge just by being "red jenny" she puts people endanger, she then exacerbates it with reckless and dangerous behaviour with no planning or caring about the outcomes. as long as HER target dies "its all good innit"

[robertthebard]

oh i'm sorry i remember kicking back doing my own thing before she lured me into 2 ambushes and got a bunch of people killed.
its called taking responsibility for your own actions, i went along with her crazy so i'm partly to blame. first time i followed her stupid letter drops ended up having to kill a bunch of people over a plan that apparently nobody knows anything about.
second i got people killed for taking her word that things would work out that nobody would get hurt.
 
oh but people were in danger, here's a hint when a buildings burning down you don't drive a truck through the evac point and tell the victims of your insane actions to toughen up. she doesn't get off scot free just because she doesn't think things through.
 
what you fail to address is people turn to her for help. just by doing so places them in danger her ill thought out plans endanger them even more. She endangers people with her stupid game and thus becomes just as reckless and self serving as the nobles shes against.
 
Just look at the result of her "march" i can take responsibility for part i played so can the noble we're working things out after the unpleasantness is dealt with.
Instead of realising this happened due to the actions of all parties involved, sera doesn't want to deal with the fact she just got a bunch of peasants killed.
 
the little people shes so worried about? nope lets beat a man to death and then sook it up when you get reamed for murdering a man.
It's so simple all the people who die is just a thing, never her fault. 
 
when people place their trust in you come to you for help you have a responsibility to look after them, not endanger people's lives so you can bludgeon idiots to death. and thats what you fail to acknowledge just by being "red jenny" she puts people endanger, she then exacerbates it with reckless and dangerous behaviour with no planning or caring about the outcomes. as long as HER target dies "its all good innit"

The only failure here is comprehension. Failing to comprehend that the Friends of Red Jenny are people that are already in harm's way. The first ambush you're going on about? That was an Orlesian noble that was trying to harm you. That's explained in the conversation you have with her, but it was too complicated, as I said in the post you quoted, she's wrong, it was too complicated.

The second ambush was set up by the noble. He admits it in the dialog. I'm not sure what's so complicated about that, but there it is, too complicated, since people still aren't getting it. I mean, when they tell you exactly what's going on, in both scenarios, and you still don't get it, how is it anyone's fault but your own?

[Uriel]

Thank you, that was exactly my point. She's Andrastian, and dismissive of the Elven pantheon. She's been Andrastian, and dismissive of the elven pantheon since we met. Since when is being consistent with your religious beliefs being a hypocrite? Did we change the meaning of the word to suit BSN? It's not the first time that I've been asked to rewrite the English language to support a position here. Given the evidence we have, she's right, too.

So, how many of the Elven Gods existed solely through possession of mortals? What beings do exist that way, in the mortal realm? Demons and Spirits. Until we meet Cole, they are the only beings that possess mortals to exist outside of the Fade. My examples? Connor and Anders? Did I make them up to support my argument, or are they very real people in the lore? We can extend the demon example to all of the abominations we fought in the first two games, so really, there's a fairly well documented history to support what Sera believes. Even with the Well of Sorrows, we're left with pure speculation that Mythal and I can't ever remember his name are anything more than spirits. It was left vague, and I subject that it was left that way intentionally. Given what we do know, however, Sera is absolutely right to believe that they are nothing but demons, since the lay person isn't exactly up on "Hey, there are other spirits in the Fade. That's a mage thing, and, what do you know, Sera's not a mage.

Elven gods aren't demons. Fen'Harel doesn't speak like a spirit. Morrigan already said in DAO that her mother was something much more different than an abomination.

I don't care that Sera doesn't think that they are "gods". She can if she wants, it's her right. But to immediately brand them as "demons", it is religion intolerance. So really, I hated her at that point.

[Tevinter Soldier]

The only failure here is comprehension. Failing to comprehend that the Friends of Red Jenny are people that are already in harm's way. The first ambush you're going on about? That was an Orlesian noble that was trying to harm you. That's explained in the conversation you have with her, but it was too complicated, as I said in the post you quoted, she's wrong, it was too complicated.

The second ambush was set up by the noble. He admits it in the dialog. I'm not sure what's so complicated about that, but there it is, too complicated, since people still aren't getting it. I mean, when they tell you exactly what's going on, in both scenarios, and you still don't get it, how is it anyone's fault but your own?

 

Harm me in what way? why did those people have to die? what was going to happen? she caused the ambush those people are dead because of her and i was put in danger BECAUSE OF HER. yes the guy plotting was going to do something, she doesn't even know what, just "i heard you'd want him dead"

 

second ambush was a result of her march which she assured would be the end of it.

 

you don't get to take action and wipe your hands of the result, this is why you plan things you figure things out you sit down and decide the best course of action. because any action YOU take has consequences and YOU'RE responsible for those actions.

 

the noble readily puts up his hand as you say, admits his part and wants to work toward a mutual outcome. I'm there to help work it out. as well, but sera? all she wants to do is take action and not think about the side effects. that puts people in danger whether you want to admit it or not.

 

the second ambush happened because she stuck her nose into affairs without thinking (and again i'm partly to blame for listening to her) those people are dead because of the actions we took. which is why she should have thought things through to begin with. who are the players involved what is the likely outcome? etc, etc.

 

no ones excusing the nobles actions, he's guilty as are you as is sera. you all got those people killed. all to teach a noble a lesson. well done bravo.

[Heimdall]

Basically, I romanced Solas, and got the vallaslin removed.  When my Lavellan discussed this with Sera and mentioned how sad and hurt she was, Sera just laughed at her and mocked her.  I don't care how crazy or hardcore or whatever you think you are, that's not how a friend behaves.  Even if Sera thinks the Dalish are a bunch of idiots, you'd think she could spare some empathy for someone who's actually gone out of her way to be friends, despite how different you are from one another.

See, I just looked up that scene on YouTube, and best I can tell you don't actually tell her that Solas just dumped Lavellan. You can only tell her the truth about Vallaslin and she makes it clear she doesn't know what happened after the Inquisitor went off with Solas. You're expecting to show empathy for something she doesn't know happened.

[Skyrunner_Morgan]

She's nutty and my head hurts each time she talks to me when I try to keep up while she races through her words and scentences. I don't hate her or anything but I didn't manage to warm up to her either not even if I gave her character a 5th and 10th try to gain a deeper understanding.

 

in my games she sits in the tavern all day and gathers dust, because NO ONE can replace Varric in my party.

[JakeLeTDK]

I don't really hate her tbh. She's just different than I thought.

When I first read her description, I thought of a smart, witty bandit, short of like Robin Hood. When I finally met her, I found her to be childish, shallow, nutty, and most of the stuffs she said hurt my brain. I still brought her in my party from times to times and her banter is fun. But yea, I kinda hope she were a bit smarter, and more mature.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

Because female characters are expected to be 100% mature, gorgeous, open minded, noble, and likeable.

Nevermind how many people loved Oghren (immature, drunk), or Sten (closed minded, murderer)...

Had Sera been written as a male there would be a different reaction to her. Some would still hate male Sera, but I guarantee he'd have a huge fandom for being quirky, fun, hilarious, confident, and exciting.

But since she's female she's called crazy, annoying, immature, closed minded, and erratic.

 

 

Yes, it's all so degrading to womans. It's just like how Jack is such a hated character. Oh, wait.

 

Maybe it's not that people who disliked Sera are all secretly woman hating chauvinists. They simply take offense at the fact that she's overtly, unnecessarily rude, crass, close minded, emotionally stunted, utterly mean spirited, violent, self serving and outright emotionally abusive towards Dalish player characters (ESPECIALLY in a romance). She's the Jar Jar Binks of the Dragon Age universe, only mean spirited and cruel with an incredibly inappropriate romance subplot thrown in. I wouldn't normally willingly jump into such a hornets nest of a conversation but I've seen it stated multiple times that people who dislike Sera are either subconsciously misogynistic, too stupid to understand her, or both. No. Just no.

 

And since when was Oghren a popular character? There was heavy backlash about him being the touted as the surprise 'fan favourite' returning for Awakening. I've never gotten the impression he was well liked.

[Felya87]

I was quite exited to meet in game Sera. I was expecting a funny character, Zevran-like, smart and funny, but without the "I love kill people" part. A real City Elf to countebalance the fact that I had to play a Dalish, since I don't really like them, but I love CE.

How wrong I was.

 

She hate non Dalish elven too, Sometimes I have this thing to wanting to give her a mirror.

 

I can't stand the girl. The option to trow her out of the Inquisition is every time I talk to her more and more tempting (why Solas have a punch option and not her?!?!?! Sigh... I would have used it in a moment. Is what I'd like to do in RL with such ignorant and cruel people.).

I keep her only because she is one of the few who will speak about my Elf and Solas (since most of the companions these time don't even notice I'm in a romance  ) But I will not in my next run.

[Heimdall]

She hate non Dalish elven too, Sometimes I have this thing to wanting to give her a mirror.

When does She do that?

[LordParbr]

Sera doesn't hate elves. She hates their self-pitying attitudes and doesn't feel automatic kinship with them just because she happens to be an elf, herself.

[robertthebard]

Harm me in what way? why did those people have to die? what was going to happen? she caused the ambush those people are dead because of her and i was put in danger BECAUSE OF HER. yes the guy plotting was going to do something, she doesn't even know what, just "i heard you'd want him dead"
 
second ambush was a result of her march which she assured would be the end of it.
 
you don't get to take action and wipe your hands of the result, this is why you plan things you figure things out you sit down and decide the best course of action. because any action YOU take has consequences and YOU'RE responsible for those actions.
 
the noble readily puts up his hand as you say, admits his part and wants to work toward a mutual outcome. I'm there to help work it out. as well, but sera? all she wants to do is take action and not think about the side effects. that puts people in danger whether you want to admit it or not.
 
the second ambush happened because she stuck her nose into affairs without thinking (and again i'm partly to blame for listening to her) those people are dead because of the actions we took. which is why she should have thought things through to begin with. who are the players involved what is the likely outcome? etc, etc.
 
no ones excusing the nobles actions, he's guilty as are you as is sera. you all got those people killed. all to teach a noble a lesson. well done bravo.

Look man, I get it, you didn't understand what happened. It's alright, really, people miss the simplest stuff all the time. Sera's explained it to you, you didn't get it, I don't know why I thought you might get it here. You don't understand what happened in either scenario, so it's automatically somebody else's fault. That's cool, now that I have an established baseline for communication, I'll know to keep things as simple as possible.

Sera found out through some of her "friends" that the noble in your first ambush was looking to take you out. She sends you a message telling you to find some red things so that you can make a pre-emptive strike against him. When you meet him, you find out that he was indeed planning to take you out, then Sera puts an arrow in his face.

Now, let's break down how this went down off screen in game, so that you're clear: Some of the people that work for the noble that gets an arrow to his face, overhear that he's planning to take out the Herald of Andraste. (just for the sake of clarity here, because we evidently have to have everything explained, it doesn't matter if you believe you are or not, they believe)so they tip the local Jenny, who just happens to be Sera. Why? Because they don't want to see anything happen to the Herald. They leave clues around for the Herald to find, and Sera tells you where they are. But Rob, why not just send a note with that intel then? Because, if they do that, it can be traced back to them, and bang, they're dead. You run around Val Royeaux and gather the intel, then go to the location indicated by all the clues. You get there only to find that there is indeed a noble planning to take you out. Sera puts an arrow in his face by way of introduction to who she is, and what she brings to the table. She did not set up an ambush, unless, of course, you want to say she set up the noble, in which case, we were the ambush, not the targets of it.

The second ambush was set up by the noble. He tells us as much in conversation after he finds out "Oh crap, somebody that can actually fight showed up, I'd better try to save my ass". He set the whole thing up, to get to Sera. He then kills the "friend" that, ostensibly led us to the situation in the first place, in order to cover up his duplicity. He is, after all, the kind of noble that Sera hates, the one that uses his servants as cannon fodder so he can get away. I get that you find this an acceptable strategy, she doesn't, and frankly, my Inquisitor didn't either. If she hadn't killed him, I would have.

Is there anything you're not clear on here? Are you starting to understand that despite your hatred, she's not responsible for these dilemmas, other than she cost that second noble some money by protecting her people? Am I supposed to feel bad for Cory every time I thwart one of his schemes? I didn't see that in the Inquisition runners manual, what page is that on, so I can look it up for future reference?

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Preach on Brother Robert! 

 

Some folks just don't get it, don't read, don't listen, and don't comprehend how the events of the game unfold and are explained.  The sheer number of people that still mistakenly believe that Sera/Red Jenny *sends little people as operatives* is staggering to me.  She explains it so many times, those "little people" are just regular folks that are already there working for "big folks" that ask for help. 

 

It's like the old Equalizer television series, where McCall is the one contacted by someone in trouble over their heads.  Another sillier example is the A-Team:

If you have a problem... if no one else can help... and if you can find them... maybe you can hire... The A-Team.

That's the Red Jenny spiel right there... 

[o Ventus]

Sera doesn't hate elves. She hates their self-pitying attitudes and doesn't feel automatic kinship with them just because she happens to be an elf, herself.

Don't tell that to the BSN, it would break their hive-mind of opinion.

[Heimdall]

Preach on Brother Robert! 
 
Some folks just don't get it, don't read, don't listen, and don't comprehend how the events of the game unfold and are explained.  The sheer number of people that still mistakenly believe that Sera/Red Jenny *sends little people as operatives* is staggering to me.  She explains it so many times, those "little people" are just regular folks that are already there working for "big folks" that ask for help. 
 
It's like the old Equalizer television series, where McCall is the one contacted by someone in trouble over their heads.  Another sillier example is the A-Team:

That's the Red Jenny spiel right there...

That's actually a pretty good comparison. Red Jenny is about helping people with problems, Noble problems but also street gangs like in Kirkwall, not social revolution.

[Sifr]

 

Some folks just don't get it, don't read, don't listen, and don't comprehend how the events of the game unfold and are explained.  The sheer number of people that still mistakenly believe that Sera/Red Jenny *sends little people as operatives* is staggering to me.  She explains it so many times, those "little people" are just regular folks that are already there working for "big folks" that ask for help.

 

To be fair, even Solas doesn't necessarily get it in the game, as he comments to her how she could make the organisation more effective despite Sera being one operative of a group that has no real leader or mission statement, with various operatives organising things and a collection of loose membership at best.

 

Heck, rather than being the A-Team, it's more like the Dragon Age equivalent of Anonymous in that regard.

 

It's also worth remembering that most of the mischief isn't even done by those in Red Jenny themselves, but by outside contractors. The Warden was hired to deliver a box to Denerim (implied to have been to Sera) and Hawke was responsible for most of the random gangs in Kirkwall being shut down and was paid for their work by their local Jenny, yet neither of them consider themselves members of Red Jenny itself.

[robertthebard]

To be fair, even Solas doesn't necessarily get it in the game, as he comments to her how she could make the organisation more effective despite Sera being one operative of a group that has no real leader or mission statement, with various operatives organising things and a collection of loose membership at best.
 
Heck, rather than being the A-Team, it's more like the Dragon Age equivalent of Anonymous in that regard.
 
It's also worth remembering that most of the mischief isn't even done by those in Red Jenny themselves, but by outside contractors. The Warden was hired to deliver a box to Denerim (implied to have been to Sera) and Hawke was responsible for most of the random gangs in Kirkwall being shut down and was paid for their work by their local Jenny, yet neither of them consider themselves members of Red Jenny itself.

The only problem I have with that scenario was that Sera would have been somewhere around 10 at the time. It's not beyond the realm of possibility, but I just don't see it.