2858 réponses à ce sujet

[byne]

Cole is literally the nicest person in Thedas and Sera fans think he's a rapist? Good lord I dont know why I come here sometimes.

[Heimdall]

I never said she knew that Solas broke it off.  What she did know was that my character was looking and sounding sad (the option was the Sad option), and as a friend instead of laughing at her, mocking her, and making fart noises, she should have been able to offer some emotional support.  But she didn't.  So she is not a friend.  If I opened up to someone about something I had that many strong personal feelings about, and was clearly feeling down, and they treated me like Sera did?  I would at the very least tell them off.  Maybe I'd punch them.  It's like, "My friend is telling me she's sad.  LOSER.  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA YOU SUCK LOSER YOU ALWAYS DID YOUR PEOPLE ARE GARBAGE HAHAHAHAHAHAHA."  And that's a seriously ugly way to be.  That's not fun, light-hearted ribbing.  There's a time for light-hearted ribbing, and that time is not when your friend is clearly down in the dumps about something.
 
Others' opinions about her lack of an end goal to her actions, and her unwillingness to take responsibility for her mistakes, also apply.  But I could overlook that; for a clever person she doesn't seem very intelligent in some ways.  She's rather childish.

I feel like I would just be rehashing the same exchange I Just had, but that isn't what Sera is saying there at all. If you'd actually look at the lines, you'd see that Sera actually makes a point to single out the Inquistor as being better off now that they know better. She is laughing at the Dalish, the people that look down on her and dismiss elves like her for not following their ways, but not the Inquisitor.
 

 

Agreed.  Sera doesn't just laugh, either.  She laughs, she makes noises, and she gloats about how basically the Dalish are a bunch of losers.
 
I'm actually beginning to agree with some others' opinions that Sera is an anti-elven racist.  I can get not agreeing with the Dalish.  What I can't comprehend is failing to respect them as people--and never being able to grow enough to understand that just because their culture is different, and their beliefs, doesn't mean they are somehow better, worse, snobbier, etc. than you are.  There's a reason the Dalish are so insular, and it involves people like Sera--and people like Gaspard, who also is the first to blame elves for all the problems, when in actuality he's about to cause a host of problems himself.

The Dalish don't respect her people, why shouldn't she return the favor? At best, the most accepting Dalish clans see the City elves as astray and in need of education so they can be proper elves. At worst we get the clan from Masked Empire who actively spit on the city elves. Frankly, some Dalish attitudes have more in common with human nobility than they would ever admit the sort of arrogance Sera despises.

She isn't a racist, she isn't fond of people that look down on others like that.

[Heimdall]

I thought that they have to call him in order for him to hear their thoughts?

Sera screams at him to stop in about half their banters. He never does.

[Brass_Buckles]

I feel like I would just be rehashing the same exchange I Just had, but that isn't what Sera is saying there at all. If you'd actually look at the lines, you'd see that Sera actually makes a point to single out the Inquistor as being better off now that they know better. She is laughing at the Dalish, the people that look down on her and dismiss elves like her for not following their ways, but not the Inquisitor.
 

 
The Dalish don't respect her people, why shouldn't she return the favor? At best, the most accepting Dalish clans see the City elves as astray and in need of education so they can be proper elves. At worst we get the clan from Masked Empire who actively spit on the city elves. Frankly, some Dalish attitudes have more in common with human nobility than they would ever admit the sort of arrogance Sera despises.

She isn't a racist, she isn't fond of people that look down on others like that.

 

When you laugh at someone's people and that person is part of a minority, you are laughing at them.  Is it appropriate to make fun of minorities now because one individual person is suddenly "more white?"

[WildOrchid]

they have to need his help in order for him to hear them

 

Interesting, if Cole can hear her then that could mean Sera does need some help.. right?

[Steelcan]

Sera screams at him to stop in about half their banters. He never does.

he can't control hearing other thoughts, but they have to need him for him to hear them.

 

Sera clearly has issues that need to be resolved

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

First of all Cole can't help his hearing other's thoughts, he makes this clear in dialogue, he can't "shut it off".

 

He uses what he learns to help people, whether its bringing out guilt and blame they place on themselves, or making a dying soldier's last moments more comfortable.  he is not going into other people's minds to intimidate, or leverage against them.  He improves their situation, then makes them forget him.  he is not seeking power power or sexual thrill.  The rape analogy is wholly unjustified and needlessly inflammatory

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.  That still doesn't excuse or justify the offense.  The fact of the matter, is he does in fact invade peoples' minds without their consent.  You can try justifying it, but it doesn't change what he does.  He is repeatedly asked, told, ordered to stop his intrusions.  I don't recall seeing any explanation from Cole about being unable to turn it off, but even still... the way for to respect others if saddled with such a burden is to avoid being around them.

 

You're intent on somehow excusing Cole, I get it.  I don't think you and I are going to see eye to eye on this, but attempting to muzzle my pointing out a very disturbing truth to Cole's behavior by claiming I am misusing the word 'rape', when in fact I am not, is not going to work. 

[Brass_Buckles]

Sera screams at him to stop in about half their banters. He never does.

 

His mind-reading is disturbing, I'll grant you that.  But he cannot shut it off.  If he feels someone hurting, he is compelled to help, or to try to help.  That's what he is.  Solas is the only character who can make him stop... and it appears to be because Solas is somehow able to block Cole from his mind.  We don't know how.  No one else can do that, but again, Cole can't stop hearing people's pained thoughts.  He probably would if he were able to, because sometimes having someone be aware of that pain makes it even more painful.  Even if he becomes more human, he still reads minds, whether he wants to or not.

[Steelcan]

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.  That still doesn't excuse or justify the offense.  The fact of the matter, is he does in fact invade peoples' minds without their consent.  You can try justifying it, but it doesn't change what he does.  He is repeatedly asked, told, ordered to stop his intrusions.  I don't recall seeing any explanation from Cole about being unable to turn it off, but even still... the way for to respect others if saddled with such a burden is to avoid being around them.

 

You're intent on somehow excusing Cole, I get it.  I don't think you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this, but attempting to muzzle my pointing out a very disturbing truth to Cole's behavior by claiming I am misusing the word 'rape', when in fact I am not, is not going to work. 

He

 

cannot

 

stop

 

hearing

 

so instead he should lock himself in a room where he can't help other people.  When a spirit is turned from its original purpose, it becomes a demon.  We see this when Solas's friend the spirit of wisdom is forced to fight and morphs into a pride demon.  That would happen to Cole if you stopped him from helping.  Then he'd go from "well intended person who cannot control his desire or ability to help people" to "murderous rampaging psychopath"

[Sasie]

She isn't a racist, she isn't fond of people that look down on others like that.

Even the dalish inquisitor can admit that most dalish are more conserned about hating humans then actually finding out the truth about their past but I'm not convinced Sera doesn't hate her own race. She makes a very big deal about "elfiness" so to speak even at times before the other part has even spoken.

She remarks on not going for elves most of the time from what I heard in her romance and the first thing she say to a dalish is that she hope they are not to elfy. It's also hard to explain why she would disapprove of Briala but approve of Gaspard getting power if racism wasn't apart of it. Gaspard should be everything she hates but she approves of him getting power instead of a city elf.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

so instead he should lock himself in a room where he can't help other people.  When a spirit is turned from its original purpose, it becomes a demon.  We see this when Solas's friend the spirit of wisdom is forced to fight and morphs into a pride demon.  That would happen to Cole if you stopped him from helping.  Then he'd go from "well intended person who cannot control his desire or ability to help people" to "murderous rampaging psychopath"

So now you are forced into a choice of choosing who's more deserving of compassion.

 

Is it better to put Cole out of his misery? 

 

Or force numerous others to endure his invasions?

 

By your logic of good intentions, of justifying actions "for their own good", the only proper thing to do is destroy Cole.

[Heimdall]

When you laugh at someone's people and that person is part of a minority, you are laughing at them.  Is it appropriate to make fun of minorities now because one individual person is suddenly "more white?"

That analogy is not apt at all, and it's needlessly inflammatory bordering on strawman territory.

I would assume that an Inquisitor that removed their ritual facial tattoos isn't such an ardent follower of the Dalish way of life anymore. Sera no doubt took it that way. I never said she wasn't being a bit insensitive and it's hardly news that she lacks tact, but she does go out of her way to tell the Inquisitor she's better off, not like the people Sera has absolutely no reason to like.

[Steelcan]

So now you are forced into a choice of choosing who's more deserving of compassion.

 

Is it better to put Cole out of his misery? 

 

Or force numerous others to endure his invasions?

 

By your logic of good intentions, of justifying actions "for their own good", the only proper thing to do is destroy Cole.

No the proper ting to do with Cole is let him help people, they are better for it, and he fulfills his purpose and doesn't turn into a demon.  he is not invading their mind prying into every thought in order to use it against them or satisfy some fetish.  He is compassion made flesh, and you have to be a cynic so far down the path of disbelief to the point of delusion to think that anything he does is cruel.

[Kipp-vas-Xerinae]

Oh Sera, Sera.

I must say that personally i don't know if i like her or hate, sometimes she is fun and that make me laugh, sometimes she acts like someone who know it all and then i wish i could hit her with flowerpot.

In the end i think that she is a very well written character, she isn't bland and that's good, props to writer and her voice actress for doing very good job with Sera.

[Vyndral]

Yes, it's all so degrading to womans. It's just like how Jack is such a hated character. Oh wait.

If you were around for the ME2 launch, and spent anytime on the forums, you would recognize these post as carbon copies of the hate Jack threads that were all the rage. Which of course is why it is also sort of amusing when you think about the time ME5 launches with a female people dislike and try to equate her to Sera, everyone will be all no way, everyone loves Sera!

[Laterali]

I think it's funny that people call Sera a racist because she says she doesn't relate to elves. She doesn't consider the elves her people because she didn't grow up with them, she grew up on the streets. How can you relate to a people you don't know? I find it much more racist when the Inquisitor walks up to her and tells her she doesn't act like an elf, or behave like an elf should behave, like there is some strict way elves have to be. 

I actually like Sera, though she can be a pain in the ass at times. If you go through her dialogue, she didn't have a great childhood, and a lot of it was because she was an elf, even though she didn't "act" like one, or what that even meant. So she feels resentment towards the elves because of it, and she feels resentment towards the people who treated her that way, the higherborns who were dicks. So she considers her people the street urchins and poor, the only ones who didn't treat her badly because of how she looked. 

 

Add to that the fact that she hasn't had much of an education other than what she could learn for herself, and the fact that she clearly didn't have many close friends, her world views are simplistic. 

[Heimdall]

Even the dalish inquisitor can admit that most dalish are more conserned about hating humans then actually finding out the truth about their past but I'm not convinced Sera doesn't hate her own race. She makes a very big deal about "elfiness" so to speak even at times before the other part has even spoken.
She remarks on not going for elves most of the time from what I heard in her romance and the first thing she say to a dalish is that she hope they are not to elfy. It's also hard to explain why she would disapprove of Briala but approve of Gaspard getting power if racism wasn't apart of it. Gaspard should be everything she hates but she approves of him getting power instead of a city elf.

It would be more accurate to say Sera isn't into racial politics. She sees Briala as an aristocrat just like the rest, she was lover to an empress and played the game, no doubt sacrificing pawns along the way. If anything, that she's now going around effectively saying "But wait I'm just like you, look at my ears!" makes Sera dislike her even more.

I find that when Sera brings up "Elfiness" it's usually in relation to the Dalish or the general idea that she's expected to feel some sort kinship to other elves on basis of her ears. She's annoyed by it. She feels more kinship with the human "little people" than the Dalish, and she isn't interested in an us vs them paradigm that tells her to resent them.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

No the proper ting to do with Cole is let him help people, they are better for it, and he fulfills his purpose and doesn't turn into a demon.  he is not invading their mind prying into every thought in order to use it against them or satisfy some fetish.  He is compassion made flesh, and you have to be a cynic so far down the path of disbelief to the point of delusion to think that anything he does is cruel.

I never said what he does is motivated by cruelty or bad intentions.

 

I said he invades minds without regard to consent or being told to stop.

 

There is no equivocating this.  There is no saying, "They really want him to, even when they say no".  You cannot have it both ways.  What Cole does is invade the innermost personal places of a person without their permission.  His banters with Sera consist of her mostly screaming at him to stop while he rambles on dreamily about what he finds in her thoughts.

 

I roleplayed my best to direct and steer Cole, and that's about the only thing any Player can do to minimize the disturbing implications of what Cole does, because we can't ditch him or destroy him.  But I always left him alone and without the presence of other party members to banter repeated violations of their thoughts and memories.

 

You're sugarcoating and obfuscating things by saying "it's better for everyone, if we let Cole violate people because he means well."

[Heimdall]

His mind-reading is disturbing, I'll grant you that.  But he cannot shut it off.  If he feels someone hurting, he is compelled to help, or to try to help.  That's what he is.  Solas is the only character who can make him stop... and it appears to be because Solas is somehow able to block Cole from his mind.  We don't know how.  No one else can do that, but again, Cole can't stop hearing people's pained thoughts.  He probably would if he were able to, because sometimes having someone be aware of that pain makes it even more painful.  Even if he becomes more human, he still reads minds, whether he wants to or not.

Even if he can't stop hearing them, there's nothing stopping him from keeping it to himself when he's asked to stop.

[Steelcan]

I never said what he does is motivated by cruelty or bad intentions.

 

I said he invades minds without regard to consent or being told to stop.

 

There is no equivocating this.  There is no saying, "They really want him to, even when they say no".  You cannot have it both ways.  What Cole does is invade the innermost personal places of a person without their permission.  His banters with Sera consist of her mostly screaming at him to stop while he rambles on dreamily about what he finds in her thoughts.

 

I roleplayed my best to direct and steer Cole, and that's about the only thing any Player can do to minimize the disturbing implications of what Cole does, because we can't ditch him or destroy him.  But I always left him alone and without party members to banter repeated violations of their thoughts and memories.

 

You're sugarcoating and obfuscating things by saying "it's better for everyone, if we let Cole violate people because he means well."

He isn't invading their minds, he just hears them, he can't help it, he is not forcing himself into it.  Just as you can't stop hearing outside noises, he can't stop hearing their thoughts.

 

Additionally, he would not be bringing it up if he did not think he could help them.  he is not doing it for laughs or to see them squirm, he is doing it beause he helps people, that's all he can do because he is a spirit of Compasssion.  Sera may scream and yell, petulant children do that, but he can't stop what he is doing otherwise he would be no longer fulfilling his purpose and he would turn into a demon.

 

He isn't coercive, he isn't forceful, he may be slightly insensitive admittedly, but he is helping them, whether they want it or not, because he HAS to

[Steelcan]

Even if he can't stop hearing them, there's nothing stopping him from keeping it to himself when he's asked to stop.

yes there is, his nature as a spirit of Compassion.

 

Forcing him to bottle up everything he hears and preventing him from helping would be just like forcing Solas's friend to fight, it would corrupt them from their true purpose and turn them into a demon

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

He isn't invading their minds, he just hears them, he can't help it, he is not forcing himself into it.  Just as you can't stop hearing outside noises, he can't stop hearing their thoughts.

 

Additionally, he would not be bringing it up if he did not think he could help them.  he is not doing it for laughs or to see them squirm, he is doing it beause he helps people, that's all he can do because he is a spirit of Compasssion.  Sera may scream and yell, petulant children do that, but he can't stop what he is doing otherwise he would be no longer fulfilling his purpose and he would turn into a demon.

 

He isn't coercive, he isn't forceful, he may be slightly insensitive admittedly, but he is helping them, whether they want it or not, because he HAS to

And is anything forcing Cole from speaking the private thoughts of people out loud?  Exposing their innermost secrets?  Can you justify that too?

 

His motivations and intentions are irrelevant as to his actions.  You keep harping on what he means to do, what motivates him.  I am not concerned with intentions, only with actions.

 

I suspect we have a philosophical impasse here.
 

I'm going to go back to discussing the main effects of Sera and her presence in game.  Cole's interactions with Sera, while a sidetrack, do serve in my opinion to show there is a double-standard in how people interpret Sera as opposed to the other Companions.

[Steelcan]

And is anything forcing Cole from speaking the private thoughts of people out loud?  Exposing their innermost secrets?  Can you justify that too?

 

His motivations and intentions are irrelevant as to his actions.  You keep harping on what he means to do, what motivates him.  I am not concerned with intentions, only with actions.

Yes.  He has to help, otherwise he'd be turned into a demon because he can no longer fulfill his goal.

 

His motivations are absolutely relevant, as a spirit, he is used to the state of the Fade where intention and motivation are actually capable of chanign the shape of the Fade and its denizens

[Shelidon]

Interesting, if Cole can hear her then that could mean Sera does need some help.. right?

She clearly does.

[Heimdall]

yes there is, his nature as a spirit of Compassion.

Forcing him to bottle up everything he hears and preventing him from helping would be just like forcing Solas's friend to fight, it would corrupt them from their true purpose and turn them into a demon

Except he doesn't even seem to be doing that in some of his banters with Sera, sometimes he just seems to be enjoying it.

Cole: There are songs in every part of part of you, Sera. Soft, silly, sibilants sighing in silence, waiting for you to hear them.
Sera: Look, could you at least not stare past my eyes? Freakin creepy, that.
Cole: You're not your eyes, you live behind them.
Sera: That too! Don't do that! Creepy.