2858 réponses à ce sujet

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Heh heh heh, yea, I don't care for Gaspard either... he's too... I dunno... but everytime I think of Gaspard, this song comes to mind...

 

 

[Xilizhra]

Allow me to repost something I wrote earlier:

This doesn't help in the slightest, because, again, Celene and Gaspard are both worse. Briala is at least trying to help someone.

 

On a different note, I don't think Sera actually dismisses the Creators completely, but rather is only trying to tell herself that because she's spiritually weak enough that she can't take shocks to her system.

 

Nothing, however, excuses her disapproving of an elven Inquisitor trying to be an ambassador when she approves of a dwarf or qunari one doing so.

[Heimdall]

I can see that in her character but it's her stubborn nature which makes her incompatible with any character I might play, though admittly I almost always go with an elf. If I felt like my Dalish elf had a chance to sway Sera's veiws I might reconsider befriending her character, but even if you turn out to be nothing like what she expects a Dalish to be she still veiws all Dalish the same, I would say the same is true of magic even if your a mage.
 
I'd be perfectly fine with her beliving in the maker, supporting the little people, holding fast with her beliefs if I felt like you had some kind of impact on her. As it is the only way to get along with her is to just agree with everything she wants you to and let her ignore reality. Even some of the common folk recosider thier opinions on elves if your Herald is elvan. I feel that by the end of the game Sera still hates nobles and the dalish just as much as she did before you met her, even though your character is living proof to the contrary.

I don't really have a problem with that. She becomes fond of the Inquisitor personally, even if she doesn't change her opinion on the group they are a part of. That's enough for me. She's REALLY friendly if you play as a femQunari I hear.

[Tsunami Chef]

I really disliked Sera at the start...but once you get on her good side and she starts to like you I think she is one of the most charming companions in the game. It's unfortunate it happens so late so you don't get too much of that dialogue.

[Xilizhra]

I don't really have a problem with that. She becomes fond of the Inquisitor personally, even if she doesn't change her opinion on the group they are a part of. That's enough for me. She's REALLY friendly if you play as a femQunari I hear.

Selective bigotry. It happens all the time, 'tis sad to see it in action.

[WildOrchid]

She's REALLY friendly if you play as a femQunari I hear.

 

I can confirm this.

 

Woof.

[Heimdall]

This doesn't help in the slightest, because, again, Celene and Gaspard are both worse. Briala is at least trying to help someone.
 
On a different note, I don't think Sera actually dismisses the Creators completely, but rather is only trying to tell herself that because she's spiritually weak enough that she can't take shocks to her system.
 
Nothing, however, excuses her disapproving of an elven Inquisitor trying to be an ambassador when she approves of a dwarf or qunari one doing so.

Like I said, she approves of Celene and Gaspard because, whoever gets the throne, the civil war is over.

Her dislike of Briala is separate. Also, she seems convinced that Briala's motivations have more to do with trying to get back at Celene than helping anyone.

If by "spiritually weak" you mean that she clings to her faith in the Maker as her only defense against her crippling existential dread, I think that's accurate.

Not sure I know what you're talking about.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

This doesn't help in the slightest, because, again, Celene and Gaspard are both worse. Briala is at least trying to help someone.

 

Nope, Briala is just trying to secure her own arse is sitting on a position of power.  She's not actually trying to help anyone else other than herself and her desire to humble Celene.  She's also more than ready to throw her own people under the bus if it gets her what she wants.  Hell, I didn't even like the books, but that much was obvious to me.

   

Nothing, however, excuses her disapproving of an elven Inquisitor trying to be an ambassador when she approves of a dwarf or qunari one doing so.

Sure there is, it's called National Sovereignty.  Orzammar and Par Vollen are capitols of existing nations that are recognized and hold their own borders.  There is NO Elven nation, despite the Dalish wishing otherwise, and Briala's makeshift Elven Alliance isn't recognized by anyone, nor does it have any territorial integrity.   To be an ambassador, you have to represent a nation.  There is NO Elven Nation, hence declaring yourself to be an Elven Ambassador comes across as pretentious and self-aggrandizing.  That's the exact kind of thing that would tick off Sera.

[Xilizhra]

Like I said, she approves of Celene and Gaspard because, whoever gets the throne, the civil war is over.

Her dislike of Briala is separate. Also, she seems convinced that Briala's motivations have more to do with trying to get back at Celene than helping anyone.

So why does she dislike Briala more?

 

 

If by "spiritually weak" you mean that she clings to her faith in the Maker as her only defense against her crippling existential dread, I think that's accurate.

Why the Maker specifically? Why not the possibility of the Maker and any others? Surely, with her hatred of the Dalish, she should realize that some things in history get missed.

 

 

Nope, Briala is just trying to secure her own arse is sitting on a position of power.  She's not actually trying to help anyone else other than herself and her desire to humble Celene.  She's also more than ready to throw her own people under the bus if it gets her what she wants.  Hell, I didn't even like the books, but that much was obvious to me.

Not only do I disagree, but I don't even really care, because even if Briala is selfish, she'd be like Bhelen: still the best option for the bottom of the pile.

 

 

Sure there is, it's called National Sovereignty.  Orzammar and Par Vollen are capitols of existing nations that are recognized and hold their own borders.  There is NO Elven nation, despite the Dalish wishing otherwise, and Briala's makeshift Elven Alliance isn't recognized by anyone, nor does it have any territorial integrity.   To be an ambassador, you have to represent a nation.  There is NO Elven Nation, hence declaring yourself to be an Elven Ambassador comes across as pretentious and self-aggrandizing.  That's the exact kind of thing that would tick off Sera.

The qunari Inquisitor is Vashoth and not a representative of Par Vollen in any way, shape, or form. The dwarf Inquisitor is surface-born and not a representative of Orzammar or Kal-Sharok in any way, shape, or form. Also, the speech has nothing whatsoever to do with nations, only setting a good example as a member of your race.

[Steelcan]

Clearly she supports Gaspard because even she can recognize how great he is

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

The qunari Inquisitor is Vashoth and not a representative of Par Vollen in any way, shape, or form. The dwarf Inquisitor is surface-born and not a representative of Orzammar or Kal-Sharok in any way, shape, or form. Also, the speech has nothing whatsoever to do with nations, only setting a good example as a member of your race.

Yes, but the unpleasant truth is that despite being estranged from their homeland, the existence of an identity... a real palpable racial and cultural identity that can be linked, the other two example Quizzies have less pretentiousness than does an Elven Quizzie who takes the whole Elven Pride angle; because the elves at this point of Thedan history don't actually exist as a people. 

 

There's Qunari Elves.  There's Ferelden Elves.  There's Tevinter Elves.  Quite simply in Thedas, Elves as a people identify more with their respective culture of geographic nationality than they do with being Elvish.  To make such a claim as being an Elven Ambassador is just self-deluded arrogance.  This is the perspective of Sera and most others in Thedas.  You can roleplay an Elven Quizzie believing differently, but that doesn't necessarily make it so with the NPC's.

[Xilizhra]

Yes, but the unpleasant truth is that despite being estranged from their homeland, the existence of an identity... a real palpable racial and cultural identity that can be linked, the other two example Quizzies have less pretentiousness than does an Elven Quizzie who takes the whole Elven Pride angle; because the elves at this point of Thedan history don't actually exist as a people.  There's Qunari Elves.  There's Ferelden Elves.  There's Tevinter Elves.  Quite simply in Thedas, Elves as a people identify more with the culture of geographic nationality than they do with being Elvish.  To make such a claim as being a Elven Ambassador is just self-deluded arrogance.

So she doesn't believe that all people are just people, just that elves alone can't be their own people. But dwarves and qunari can, because they have land. Brilliant.

There's a good codex entry on Vashoth, where a Nevarran goatherder gets rather angry at Brother Genitivi for trying to interview her on the topic of the qunari, saying that he knows far more about them than she does, among other things. I wonder if Sera ever read that?

 

Really, given Sera's general immaturity and ill-formed political opinions, I think you're making this far more complicated than Sera was thinking of it, however she was thinking of it. I think it's just a visceral reaction against anything that seems elfy.

[banhmi87]

Nope, Briala is just trying to secure her own arse is sitting on a position of power.  She's not actually trying to help anyone else other than herself and her desire to humble Celene.  She's also more than ready to throw her own people under the bus if it gets her what she wants.  Hell, I didn't even like the books, but that much was obvious to me.

   

I read the book, and I don't see anything suggests that Briala helps only herself. Her actions benefit a lot of city elves before the Civil War. In the game, I don't know, but whatever she does will help the majority of elves in the end despite her true intention.

 

Some of you seem to speak for what you think of Sera personally instead of addressing what Sera actually thinks or does. It's like she does nothing wrong, and even if she does something questionable (e.g. support Gaspard), there is always an explaination to justify her means.

[wright1978]

I find her a very chalk and cheese character. One minute i'll find her fun and likeable and then the next i'll find her annoying.

Makes her an interesting companion and one i enjoyed meeting, even if she wasn't what i was expecting.

[banhmi87]

Clearly she supports Gaspard because even she can recognize how great he is

 

She supports Celene as well. Does it mean she also recognize Celene as a fair and good ruler?

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

So she doesn't believe that all people are just people, just that elves alone can't be their own people. But dwarves and qunari can, because they have land. Brilliant.

Not exactly, think of it more as Sera frowning on racial and political separatism.  Remember that she's actually very politically conservative, favoring an enforced status-quo that works closer to the *ideal* social compacts of Feudalism and Religious Hierarchy, ans she's not at all a revolutionary like Solas presumes she is in their banter. 

 

In Sera's eyes, Elves wanting to be separate are a 'stupid idea' because there's already enough inequality in Thedas, she doesn't see the need for Elven separatism and superiority.  The whole Dalish agenda pretty much pushes both the separate and superior angle.

[Xilizhra]

Not exactly, think of it more as Sera frowning on racial and political separatism.  Remember that she's actually very politically conservative, favoring an enforced status-quo that works closer to the *ideal* social compacts of Feudalism and Religious Hierarchy, ans she's not at all a revolutionary like Solas presumes she is in their banter.

You know, I hadn't actually hated her before now. I really hope you're wrong on this, because that'd mean that even my (atheist and status-quo disdaining) Vashoth Inquisitor couldn't tolerate her.

 

 

In Sera's eyes, Elves wanting to be separate are a 'stupid idea' because there's already enough inequality in Thedas, she doesn't see the need for Elven separatism and superiority.  The whole Dalish agenda pretty much pushes both the separate and superior angle.

So it's inherently better to subsume oneself into human culture?

[Steelcan]

She supports Celene as well. Does it mean she also recognize Celene as a fair and good ruler?

no it means she has a bad opinion in that case

[Heimdall]

So why does she dislike Briala more?

I just told you the opposite. Her approval of Celene and Gaspard has nothing to do with her liking them.
 

Why the Maker specifically? Why not the possibility of the Maker and any others? Surely, with her hatred of the Dalish, she should realize that some things in history get missed.

To counter her fear, Sera needs a stable set of religious beliefs, not a state of flux. The moment she starts questioning it is the moment her security blanket unravels and she confronted with the possibility that none of them are real at all and there is nothing. According to that jaunt in the Fade, that's Sera's greatest fear: "The Nothing"
 

Not only do I disagree, but I don't even really care, because even if Briala is selfish, she'd be like Bhelen; still the best option for the bottom of the pile.

Doesn't really matter whether you agree. I've read Masked Empire and I don't agree with her assessment either but considering Briala's past I can understand how Sera comes that conclusion. Besides, it's not like she's the only option, Celene has been improving the lot of the elves for decades (If by degrees), if we're going for that sort of thing.

[Xilizhra]

I just told you the opposite. Her approval of Celene and Gaspard has nothing to do with her liking them.

So what makes it a worse scenario to have Briala there than not?

 

 

To counter her fear, Sera needs a stable set of religious beliefs, not a state of flux. The moment she starts questioning it is the moment her security blanket unravels and she confronted with the possibility that none of them are real at all and there is nothing. According to that jaunt in the Fade, that's Sera's greatest fear: "The Nothing"

Thus, spiritual weakness. The strong can survive doubt and questioning--I daresay even the middling can.

 

 

Doesn't really matter whether you agree. I've read Masked Empire and I don't agree with her assessment either but considering Briala's past I can understand how Sera comes that conclusion. Besides, it's not like she's the only option, Celene has been improving the lot of the elves for decades (If by degrees), if we're going for that sort of thing.

And with Briala, it'll be done better.

[Steelcan]

 

And with Briala, it'll be done better.

faster certainly, but I don't think violence against elves is going anywhere

[Ennai and 54 others]

Irony? "I'm only going to stay in this relationship if she caves to my beliefs, instead of trying to find common ground", which is exactly why she can dump you, you try to force her into your way of thinking. So the PC should have all their whims/desires/beliefs catered to instead of allowing a character to keep their own?

You're exaggerating.Even if the inquisitor says "maybe",Sera calls them an idiot.

[Xilizhra]

faster certainly, but I don't think violence against elves is going anywhere

We do what we can to move towards what is right. That must be enough.

[Nightdragon8]

Nope, Briala is just trying to secure her own arse is sitting on a position of power.  She's not actually trying to help anyone else other than herself and her desire to humble Celene.  She's also more than ready to throw her own people under the bus if it gets her what she wants.  Hell, I didn't even like the books, but that much was obvious to me.

   

Sure there is, it's called National Sovereignty.  Orzammar and Par Vollen are capitols of existing nations that are recognized and hold their own borders.  There is NO Elven nation, despite the Dalish wishing otherwise, and Briala's makeshift Elven Alliance isn't recognized by anyone, nor does it have any territorial integrity.   To be an ambassador, you have to represent a nation.  There is NO Elven Nation, hence declaring yourself to be an Elven Ambassador comes across as pretentious and self-aggrandizing.  That's the exact kind of thing that would tick off Sera.

Yes but just because you are a Drawf doesn't mean you are from Orzammar. And the fact you are on the surface means you are exiled from Orzammar thus in reality are nationless.

[Heimdall]

So what makes it a worse scenario to have Briala there than not?

Because she only complicates the equation and Sera sees her as a terrible hypocrite. To her, Briala is a noble that's used the shape of her ears to convince "little people" that she has something in common with them when she really doesn't.

Thus, spiritual weakness. The strong can survive doubt and questioning--I daresay even the middling can.

Maybe it is weakness, but having recently witnessed my brother go through a number of severe anxiety attacks rooted in existential dread this arouses more pity than criticism in me.
 
 

And with Briala, it'll be done better.

Maybe, maybe not. Like I said, Sera believes Briala is duplicitous.