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[robertthebard]

But is fine with seeing my faith as a lie? And therein we might find hypocrisy.
And what I'd be saying is that the Chant of Light got some things wrong, as the Dalish got some things wrong. It seems fair to me.
 
And why does no one else break up with the Inquisitor over this, including Cassandra?

Because none of them have an issue with being too elfy? Again, with throwing words around that don't fit, yes? What does the Chant of Light teach about Gods? That there is but one God, right? So sticking with her Andrastianism makes her a hypocrite? I'm thinking that that definition your using is exactly opposite of what the word means, isn't it? I realize this is the BSN, and rewriting the language to suit the argument is a common practice, but I'm not buying it. I'm thinking that the hypocrisy is expecting her to do something that's against what she's been saying, and living, since the beginning of the game, and then claiming "but that's not what I'm trying to get her to do. I'm just trying to get her to accept that my Gods are just as valid as hers, even though her religion says there is only one God. With the added bonus of 'I'm not even sure my Gods are anything more than Spirits, and might even be Demons, since they kept slaves'".

[KillTheLastRomantic]

"Hi, darling. I've decided to worship demons.  You are okay with that, right?"

 

"No."

 

I'm not sure that qualifies as intolerance.  If you aren't in a relationship, she just says  "fine, whatever, we'll just agree to disagree. Let's deal with Corypheus."  She's fine with leaving you to yourself if that's what you want.  She's not fine with having a relationship with someone who thinks her faith is a lie.

 

Because you do realize that she's right, don't you?  There's no way the Creators can be "Divine" and the faith of the Maker be true.  If you say that worshiping a fade spirit is cool, you inherently saying that the Maker's faith is false.

 

Now I can see how the dialogue there could be intended to be more equivocal in the player's mind, but its pretty clear that its written as if the inquisitor is saying "what if Mythal really is a god?" rather than just "obviously there was something there and maybe it wasn't a demon, even if it wasn't a god."   I know I was a bit caught off guard by that interpretation of the line when I played it.

 

Actually, she gets angry and explicitly states that YOUR beliefs are wrong because they don't mesh with HERS and then writes everything off as 'demons' without any critical thought. She'll then repeatedly call you 'stupid' and an 'idiot' if you're not in a romance and start rambling off on a tangent about how you're only believing there could be something valid in what Abelas says because he 'looks weird' and Corypheus 'looks weird too' so by that argument anything he says is true, too. Um, what? It's the equivalent of someone just yelling over you in a debate with random things that pop into their head.

 

Obviously we have a difference of opinion on it, but I'd compare it more to, in real world terms:

 

'Sweetheart, I've just been through a really profound experience and I'm starting to wonder if there's some validity to Christianity.'

'What? Oh, no. I KNEW this would happen. Why did you have to make me like you, do you know how stupid you sound? This isn't going to work. You're a Christian now? I'M NOT CHRISTIAN. PLEASE tell me you'll forget all that Christianity stuff and we can just go back to normal...'

[Xilizhra]

Because none of them have an issue with being too elfy? Again, with throwing words around that don't fit, yes? What does the Chant of Light teach about Gods? That there is but one God, right? So sticking with her Andrastianism makes her a hypocrite? I'm thinking that that definition your using is exactly opposite of what the word means, isn't it? I realize this is the BSN, and rewriting the language to suit the argument is a common practice, but I'm not buying it. I'm thinking that the hypocrisy is expecting her to do something that's against what she's been saying, and living, since the beginning of the game, and then claiming "but that's not what I'm trying to get her to do. I'm just trying to get her to accept that my Gods are just as valid as hers, even though her religion says there is only one God. With the added bonus of 'I'm not even sure my Gods are anything more than Spirits, and might even be Demons, since they kept slaves'".

I meant that if she thought that religion was going to be that big of an issue, why didn't she warn off the Inquisitor from the beginning? She's fine with challenging the Inquisitor's faith but can't handle the reverse.

[Vormaerin]

But is fine with seeing my faith as a lie? And therein we might find hypocrisy.

And what I'd be saying is that the Chant of Light got some things wrong, as the Dalish got some things wrong. It seems fair to me.

 

And why does no one else break up with the Inquisitor over this, including Cassandra?

 

Its not hypocrisy.  She believes in the Maker.  She's very upfront about that and makes it clear early on that if you are into all that Dalish and "ancient elf" stuff, there isn't going to be anything romantic between you.  Like I said, she's just fine with you doing whatever you do off over there.  Just not in a relationship with her.  If you get that far and then start saying "oh, maybe there really are elf gods", she's not going to just say  "sure, whatever."

 

I don't know if Cassandra says anything about it or not.   Some people do take it serious about shared faith in a relationship.  Others are not so worried, figuring it'll work out or it won't.

 

Like she said, you can try to create a weaselly logic for two incompatible beliefs to both be true, but its not going to work for her.  And, to be fair, that sort of thing doesn't work for most people.

[robertthebard]

I meant that if she thought that religion was going to be that big of an issue, why didn't she warn off the Inquisitor from the beginning? She's fine with challenging the Inquisitor's faith but can't handle the reverse.

I think there's another word for that, but my vocabulary is on vacation or something, because it's right on the tip of my tongue, and I just can't get my fingers to type it. It is harsh. Make no mistake, I see it as pretty harsh, but she does stay true to who she has presented herself to be, for all her flaws.

[Vormaerin]

'Sweetheart, I've just been through a really profound experience and I'm starting to wonder if there's some validity to Christianity.'

'What? Oh, no. I KNEW this would happen. Why did you have to make me like you, do you know how stupid you sound? This isn't going to work. You're a Christian now? I'M NOT CHRISTIAN. PLEASE tell me you'll forget all that Christianity stuff and we can just go back to normal...'

 

And lots and lots of people would do that.  Allowing people to practice their own faith and being in a relationship with someone who doesn't share something that profoundly important to you is worlds apart.

[Xilizhra]

Its not hypocrisy.  She believes in the Maker.  She's very upfront about that and makes it clear early on that if you are into all that Dalish and "ancient elf" stuff, there isn't going to be anything romantic between you.  Like I said, she's just fine with you doing whatever you do off over there.  Just not in a relationship with her.  If you get that far and then start saying "oh, maybe there really are elf gods", she's not going to just say  "sure, whatever."

 

I don't know if Cassandra says anything about it or not.   Some people do take it serious about shared faith in a relationship.  Others are not so worried, figuring it'll work out or it won't.

 

Like she said, you can try to create a weaselly logic for two incompatible beliefs to both be true, but its not going to work for her.  And, to be fair, that sort of thing doesn't work for most people.

No she doesn't. From what I recall, she's more just against you trying to convert her into some ideal of a true elf; she doesn't bring up the Creators at all.

 

And if Sebastian of all people can talk about Andrastian/Dalish syncretism without going nuts, I'm not too impressed by Sera not being able to.

 

'Sweetheart, I've just been through a really profound experience and I'm starting to wonder if there's some validity to Christianity.'

'What? Oh, no. I KNEW this would happen. Why did you have to make me like you, do you know how stupid you sound? This isn't going to work. You're a Christian now? I'M NOT CHRISTIAN. PLEASE tell me you'll forget all that Christianity stuff and we can just go back to normal...'

That sounds hilariously close to a Chick Tract quote. In fact, I think it might be almost verbatim.

[Xilizhra]

And lots and lots of people would do that.  Allowing people to practice their own faith and being in a relationship with someone who doesn't share something that profoundly important to you is worlds apart.

Not quite. The breakup only happens if you're playing as an elf yourself. Being any other race and not believing in the Maker is fine.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

And lots and lots of people would do that.  Allowing people to practice their own faith and being in a relationship with someone who doesn't share something that profoundly important to you is worlds apart.

 

I think people's problem is, getting back to the point, not that she disagrees with the Inquisitor over their beliefs (or even just openminded pondering), but that she's so damned hostile and aggressive about it. She's...she's the BSN. Her go to offensive is to throw around insults and change the subject and talk loudly over someone she doesn't agree with, instead of discussing anything constructively and respectfully. It's particularly harsh against anyone in a romance with her, which is why that vid was brought into the conversation. Personally, I would NEVER talk to someone like that, let alone my boyfriend/husband.

[Steelcan]

"Sera, less inclusive and understanding than Sebastian"

 

I'mma have to use that

[robertthebard]

No she doesn't. From what I recall, she's more just against you trying to convert her into some ideal of a true elf; she doesn't bring up the Creators at all.
 
And if Sebastian of all people can talk about Andrastian/Dalish syncretism without going nuts, I'm not too impressed by Sera not being able to.
 
That sounds hilariously close to a Chick Tract quote. In fact, I think it might be almost verbatim.

There is a dialog you can have with her right after you get to Skyhold that indicates that she is Andrastian. She then goes into the she wants to see if it's really real, but she's not sure if she wants to really know lines. Frankly, the whole spiel scares the crap out of her, just like magic does.

[Hazegurl]

I don't agree with this interpretation. From Sera's POV you have hitched your wagon to a living-in-the-past, professional-victim racist ideology. She will not intimately involve herself with someone who embraces something that she finds so fundamentally repugnant. You have chosen to embrace the exact polar opposite of her (repeatedly expressed) life stance. She says "Some things don't fit" and she's right. This is a very real conflict for her. That it's not an issue for you and that you therefore just dismiss it just makes it that much worse.

Keep on stretching that defense...

 

 

Not quite. The breakup only happens if you're playing as an elf yourself. Being any other race and not believing in the Maker is fine.

Wow, that is messed up. But I can see it. She was quite submissive to my Human Noble Mage. You would think that with him being a noble AND a mage she would be just as hostile to him as she would be to an elf.  All she did was beg him not to be so "elfy".... But then again the moment she did step out of line he tossed her arse out the Inquisition lol!!

[robertthebard]

Keep on stretching that defense...

Did you have something to add, or did we just happen to cross your bridge?

[Mushashi7]

Sera?

I don't hate her.

If I'm in the mood I think Sera is awesome. A splitbrain with no limits.

When I'm in the other mood I am all stresset up just looking at her.

[skotie]

Because I've already stated that I don't know, but you're claiming that you do?

There's more evidence to support the elvan pantheon then the maker, seriously man stop sticking your head in the sand.

[Vormaerin]

There's more evidence to support the elvan pantheon then the maker, seriously man stop sticking your head in the sand.

 

There's evidence that there were wizards or spirits that the Dalish claim are gods.  There's no actual information about how the ancient elves viewed such things.  The Dalish think they were gods or something.  That doesn't mean the Arlathan elves did.  It certainly doesn't mean that they actually were divine entities of any sort.

[Nathair Nimheil]

That's....kind of a disturbing ultimatum she gives you, isn't it?

Not really, no. "Ultimatum" is a very inflammatory way to describe a lover saying "Please tell me you don't mean it, Please, take it back so we can stay together". Ultimatum is a demand, usually peremptory and not open to negotiation, to comply within a set time and backed up by a specific threat. It is the word used in international law to describe the last stage in a declaration of war.

 

The only thing I find really disturbing is the people who can't/won't even attempt to empathise here.

 

...well, that and all the "I can't believe she's so intolerant; the ugly, evil, irritating, childish, racist, bigoted, ignorant, manipulating, stupid, selfish, psychotic, murdering ******! I wanted to stab her in the face repeatedly for not being tolerant and mature like me."

[Steelcan]

No that is certainly an ultimatum, pick this or its over

[skotie]

Are we going to stay silent on the Inquisitor's hair style?

 

It's a greater crime than the romance bit

It's not like they give you many good choices though, I mean have you seen the female eyebrow selection? I'm pretty sure that was sort of a sick joke.

[skotie]

But is fine with seeing my faith as a lie? And therein we might find hypocrisy.

And what I'd be saying is that the Chant of Light got some things wrong, as the Dalish got some things wrong. It seems fair to me.

 

And why does no one else break up with the Inquisitor over this, including Cassandra?

Wonder how Sera would respond if you told her you think the maker is a demon. Let me guess "Your Stupid!" XD

[skotie]

There's evidence that there were wizards or spirits that the Dalish claim are gods.  There's no actual information about how the ancient elves viewed such things.  The Dalish think they were gods or something.  That doesn't mean the Arlathan elves did.  It certainly doesn't mean that they actually were divine entities of any sort.

Not more to go on then the Maker though right? Because we got that book written by the crazy lady who somehow managed to build an army mostly comprised of slaves against quite possibly the most hated nation in the world?

[Nathair Nimheil]

'Sweetheart, I've just been through a really profound experience and I'm starting to wonder if there's some validity to Christianity.'
'What? Oh, no. I KNEW this would happen. Why did you have to make me like you, do you know how stupid you sound? This isn't going to work. You're a Christian now? I'M NOT CHRISTIAN. PLEASE tell me you'll forget all that Christianity stuff and we can just go back to normal...'

Fair enough comparison. That would certainly be the end of any relationship with me. Not just because Christianity but also because of all that embracing it entails about your thinking and you view of the world.

[Hazegurl]

Not really, no. "Ultimatum" is a very inflammatory way to describe a lover saying "Please tell me you don't mean it, Please, take it back so we can stay together". Ultimatum is a demand, usually peremptory and not open to negotiation, to comply within a set time and backed up by a specific threat. It is the word used in international law to describe the last stage in a declaration of war.

 

The only thing I find really disturbing is the people who can't/won't even attempt to empathise here.

 

...well, that and all the "I can't believe she's so intolerant; the ugly, evil, irritating, childish, racist, bigoted, ignorant, manipulating, stupid, selfish, psychotic, murdering ******! I wanted to stab her in the face repeatedly for not being tolerant and mature like me."

ul·ti·ma·tum

ˌəltəˈmādəm/

noun

noun: ultimatum; plural noun: ultimata; plural noun: ultimatums

a final demand or statement of terms, the rejection of which will result in retaliation or a breakdown in relations.

[Nathair Nimheil]

No that is certainly an ultimatum, pick this or its over

Yes, the words you chose when you paraphrased her certainly sound like an ultimatum. Not that helpful, really.

[Barathos]

Not really, no. "Ultimatum" is a very inflammatory way to describe a lover saying "Please tell me you don't mean it, Please, take it back so we can stay together". Ultimatum is a demand, usually peremptory and not open to negotiation, to comply within a set time and backed up by a specific threat. It is the word used in international law to describe the last stage in a declaration of war.

 

The only thing I find really disturbing is the people who can't/won't even attempt to empathise here.

 

...well, that and all the "I can't believe she's so intolerant; the ugly, evil, irritating, childish, racist, bigoted, ignorant, manipulating, stupid, selfish, psychotic, murdering ******! I wanted to stab her in the face repeatedly for not being tolerant and mature like me."

*Looks at the video*

 

*Looks back to this post*

*Goes back to the video*

Yeah. That's an ultimatum.