2858 réponses à ce sujet

[Ennai and 54 others]

We do that in self defense.

 

I never kill anyone if I have an option to save them. Hell, I have yet to even kill any of the people you can judge.

Lol actually there is a "disengage" option in the menu.Usually mooks are just hanging around when you attack them.So they are usually fighting in self defense,not you.Jerk.

 

Also most of the dragons you fight were just minding their own business.Remember their screams.

[Shelidon]

they are usually fighting in self defense,not you.Jerk.

Talking about fighting in self defence or not...

Seriously, killing someone who's talking to you might be ok. Or not. Surely you kill lots of people without bothering. There's a distinction between pure combat and plot, but I'm not going to try to explain that here. I'm ok if you want to push roleplay all the way: personally I'm crazy enough to do that.
Disobeying to the inquisitor's instruction, also, might be ok or not.
It all depends on the inquisitor and on the kind of inquisition you are trying to build. It's all a matter of consistency. Sera had to go in this first playthrough of mine, because she had no place in my Inquisition. Maybe my next inquisition will be a merry band of merry murderers and we'll have fun together. I think there are lots of companions that hardly fit the Inquisition, and you have to work with them to actually make that work. I just jad a discussion with Solas on this very terms, we ended up disagreeing and he said that I don't need his approval, I just need his obedience. My inquisitor doesn't agree and I'll try to "win him back" (even if I have seen the spoilers) but still, Sera lacks even this kind of cooperation. You can't have her approval neither her obedience. The only scenario where you can befriend her is if you actually agree with her. That's an option. Still, I don't see it happening for me.
And this is all beside the point of her being hugely annoying in voice, aspect, dialogues and animations. They are two different levels and I think we should try to keep them separated.

[Zeroth Angel]

you bring shame to your user name.

I don't love Sera though, so no reason to kill, manipulate and destroy everything and anyone to get her love.

[Steelcan]

See? This is exactly the kind of overblown, hyperbolic distortion that is the signature move of the Serahaters. She doesn't leave the Inquisition, she doesn't become intransigent and mutinous, she doesn't hate you forever, she just ends the intimate relationship. You can't seriously be trying to say that she is required to stay in the relationship even if she doesn't want to. All I hear is "Her reason isn't good enough!" but "It just kinda feels wrong" is reason enough and this is much more significant than that.

So what I'm seeing is "I can't actually refute that, so I'll attack something else in it"

Thanks for proving me right

[Xilizhra]

Treating people equally is what allows people to treat eachother equally- so long as what you actually care about is people treating each other equal, rather than some ideal quota or composition ratio of how things should be in all parts of society.

 

Questing after historic compensation simply up a debate of what constitutes 'compensation,' who owes it, and who is to provide for it, an impossible to resolve delimma that will always unjustly penalize people innocent in the present of historic crimes in the past, and allows demagogues to co-opt the disenfranchised to elevate themselves into elites... and encourages them to maintain a sense of crisis and dependency, so that the disenfranchised remain dependent on those self-proclaimed guardians.

 

If you think that racial advocacy is some moral requirement despite the issues that come along with it, that's nice but merely a personal opinion. Other people have no obligation to agree or go along with your viewpoint, especially if they see issue with the advocates, just as you are under no moral obligation to go along with their moral crusades.

It's not about compensation, it's about eliminating actual inequality. I don't think that a genuinely postracial society exists yet--I don't know if it ever will, really.

[Nathair Nimheil]

So what I'm seeing is "I can't actually refute that, so I'll attack something else in it"

Thanks for proving me right

It's like talking to a Birther.

[Nathair Nimheil]

It's not about compensation, it's about eliminating actual inequality.

Indeed.

[robertthebard]

There's more evidence to support the elvan pantheon then the maker, seriously man stop sticking your head in the sand.

Then

Provide

The

Evidence?

I can, however, play this game the same way:

Mythal exists by possessing mortals == Mythal is a demon. Because I said so. I could, at least, show documentation to support it: Kirkwall during DA 2, lots of abominations there, which are what? Demons possessing mages. The Broken Circle is full of similar examples. So, based on the evidence provided, Mythal is a demon. Since the only real examples we have of Spirits possessing people are Wynne and Anders, and in the latter case, the Spirit was twisted into Vengeance, another demon, then the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of Mythal being a demon, since Flemmeth was praying for vengeance against her husband, and got who? Mythal. So, if Anders can twist a Spirit to a Demon, why can't Flemeth?

Now, are you going to pull your head out of the sand long enough to provide something that actually counters this claim, or is it going to be more "because I said so"?

[Steelcan]

It's like talking to a Birther.

. Yes, because I can call out a hypocritical child for being a hypocritical child, I'm akin to fringe elements of a delusional right wing movement....

So in addition to moving the goal posts we have an ad hominem

[robertthebard]

I'd rather not get into real world religion bashing. My point has been diluted by people's personal feelings and agenda's towards Christianity. Change Christianity to 'Buddhism'. The point is she's disrespectful, dismissive, aggressive and militant towards her partner over even a discussion of differing ideologies. There's no talking. No respect. That's it. I'd like to think if I was confronted with a similar situation I'd be able to at least have a calm discussion with the person I'm supposed to love and I find Sera's reaction uncivilized and repugnant. Like MANY situations in the game, she jumps the gun and goes straight into hostility. Not to mention Sera IS RELIGIOUS herself. She's not making some socially aware moral stand about the dangers of religious thinking.

...and yet, here you are, doing the same thing: I don't like using that religion as an example, because personal feeling and agenda, so change it to something else. This is exactly the dilemma that people are both put in and putting Sera in, with the only difference being that Sera can't come to the forums and lay out her side. Can you honestly sit here and tell me that some of the people complaining about these issues with Sera aren't being dismissive, aggressive and militant about it?

In the previous thread, I had one poster that was constantly attacking my personal life in an attempt to "win" the discussion. In this thread, I've been told that I need to pull my head out of the sand and see all the proof that Sera was wrong. This, after asking for this alleged proof. I'll note that the "proof" they offered in that reply was literally "pull your head out of the sand". But you're right about one thing, she's not making a social statement about religion, she's making a statement about her beliefs, and she's willing to sacrifice the relationship over how seriously she takes it. It doesn't matter if it's a plea, or an ultimatum, it's Sera saying "This is the way I see things, this is the way you see things, and those views are incompatible". Now, we can sit out here all day and try to pretend that they're not, but the fact is that more blood has been spilled in the name of God than for any other reason. It doesn't matter what God it is, that's just the simple truth. Is it stupid? I'd say so, but I don't have a problem co-existing with other religious beliefs.

The problem is, I don't rule the world, I rule my roost. If someone is going to profess beliefs that I can't get behind, and granted, in our society, it's going to be really hard to get a similar situation, it's time to make a choice. I had to leave a girl friend that was "Born Again", because the person that she was reborn to wasn't the person that I initially met. The differences were irreconcilable, and so, I left. Better that than to spend hours a day arguing about the merits of one religion over another. Which is, I might add, where we were when I left. Is it harsh? You bet, but she's not going to change back to the person she was, and I'm not willing to change to suit her.

[robertthebard]

. Yes, because I can call out a hypocritical child for being a hypocritical child, I'm akin to fringe elements of a delusional right wing movement....

So in addition to moving the goal posts we have an ad hominem

That word, I don't think it means what you think it means. But I've been down this road before: It's ok to rewrite the English language to support an argument on the BSN.

[Hazegurl]

I overheard something interesting sometime after kicking Sera out. Some people in Orlais were talking about RJ and how she was sent to prank some minor noble. One starts listing a few harmless revenge pranks she could have done until the other says "She burned his house down." then the other says "She's changed...again."

 

I wonder if "RJ" gonna be an issue in a future DLC (war table mission) for those who kicked Sera out.

 

*Unless this dialogue occurs no matter what.

[Steelcan]

That word, I don't think it means what you think it means. But I've been down this road before: It's ok to rewrite the English language to support an argument on the BSN.

hypocritical? I think it fits Sera

She's out for herself,and is willing to out little people in harm's way to further her own goals of self serving profit

[Nathair Nimheil]

. Yes, because I can call out a hypocritical child for being a hypocritical child,

Except you don't. You paraphrase to create strawmen. When I point out that your strawmen are strawmen, that Sera never actually said what you've claimed you then paraphrase what I said into something else and then claim that I've proven you right. When I throw my hands up at your constant silliness you call me a hypocritical child without, of course, pointing out any actual hypocrisy or childishness. If you continue in this vein you are not worth my time.
 

So in addition to moving the goal posts we have an ad hominem

And other authoritative sounding buzzwords.

[robertthebard]

Which was the final straw for me.
After she refused to admit her part of the guilt of getting her friends killed and repedeatly insisting that she was right, even my altruistic Inquisitor had enough of her.

Exactly what guilt did she have, since you're bringing it up? Someone contacts her, she passes it on to you, you take action, or not, based on your own motivations. Turns out, it was a trap laid for Sera, and the noble that set it up killed the "friend" right in front of you, two arrows into an unarmed man, but that's Sera's fault? The noble even admits that he set the whole thing up to get to her, so she fell into the trap, of course it's her fault. The thing about this accusation that usually chaffs my hide is that people seem to honestly believe that she plants people in the employ of nobility to spy. They don't seem to understand that those people are already there, and overhear something/see something that they relay to Red Jenny. You'll note, if you're not too busy trying to just "get out of the scene, because Sera" that the servant that gets killed calls her Red Jenny, not Sera. So how is it that an employee wouldn't know who you are? How is it that she'll ask "you're the one that sent the message", instead of knowing right off the bat who he was?

[robertthebard]

Not while interrogating somebody who has potential use for our institution.
 
Look, I get that you like the character, but stop trying to invalidate every point of criticism.

What possible use could your "altruistic" Inquisitor have for someone that kills an unarmed servant in cold blood right in front of you? That's what I saw happen. That's what I saw happen the very first time I went in there, and if Sera hadn't killed him, I would have. I mean, if we're going to base our Inquisition on wholesale slaughter of innocents, why even leave Skyhold, couldn't we accomplish the same thing just sitting in the castle drinking with Varric all day?

[Steelcan]

I thought it was pretty clear I'm paraphrasing her.


Also lol@"authoritative sounding buzzwords" then going on to say I'm constructing Strawmwn, is that you David? Have you at last returned to us to reveal the path of Heroism?

Nor was I calling youa hypocritical child, I was referring to the bufoon with a bow

[robertthebard]

Yet she kills two people right before your eyes, one of whom's biggest crime just might be, being a pompus ass.
 
I can justify the second killing during her quest, the guy had no problem admiting his guilt and was trying to strike a deal with you, mostly to save his own skin.
 
What is the reason for shooting the noble in the face upon meeting her? What that he was an enemy to the inquisition's cause? Wow perhaps we should go murder some of those chantry sisters back in Val Royeaux while were at it, they were just as frightening and were also our enemies!
 
Considering this I would hardly say they are not assassins.

If the whole quest didn't answer this question for you, along with the dialog after the arrow to the face, how are we supposed to explain it to you now, w/out the visual aids? Think about it, what are the noble's lines as he's chucking mini fireballs at you? In fact, what were his lines right up until his lackey got killed? No, I'm not going to spend my time, again, explaining this. It was plainly laid out in the quest, and despite the last time I had to go here I stated that Sera had it wrong, because it is too complicated for some, I'm going to spend my time teaching a man to fish, instead of giving him a fish.

[MetalGear312]

She is delightfully mad. A bit unreasonable, but delightful.

[robertthebard]

hypocritical? I think it fits Sera

She's out for herself,and is willing to out little people in harm's way to further her own goals of self serving profit

So your complete misunderstanding of how Red Jenny works justifies her being a hypocrite. Enlighten me as to how your lack of enlightenment equates to her hypocrisy? You see, I see it the other way around. Despite having people explain how Red Jenny works, including the game, you cling to this misconception that she is somehow leading this spy network to rival Leliana's, despite the fact that, if you ask her during her recruitment quest, she'll tell you the exact opposite. This isn't a failing with the character.

[Steelcan]

I didn't say Red Jenny as an organization is hypocritical, I said Sera is, she is not the organization

[robertthebard]

Apparently she's from Derbyshire and is using her natural accent.

But, this is the BSN, it's normal for people to be called out for how they speak.

[Shelidon]

What possible use could your "altruistic" Inquisitor have for someone that kills an unarmed servant in cold blood right in front of you? That's what I saw happen. That's what I saw happen the very first time I went in there, and if Sera hadn't killed him, I would have.

No, you wouldn't.
She wouldn't have let you.
For the last blighted time, she goes mad even if you're talking to him without picking the "let's hear what you have to offer" line, she freaks out because you are talking to him, even if you are in fact accusing him, having him account for his crimes. As if Josephine would freak out every time you pick the "let's hear what he has to say in his/her defense" line while judging people. Can you imagine that? If this is the kind of justice we want to bring upon the world, I'd say let Corypheus do the work: he seems to be better organized.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

hypocritical? I think it fits Sera

She's out for herself,and is willing to out little people in harm's way to further her own goals of self serving profit

This assertion keeps being repeated without any cited in-game proof.  At no point in the game does she "put little people in harm's way".

[robertthebard]

I didn't say Red Jenny as an organization is hypocritical, I said Sera is, she is not the organization

...and yet, you claim it's because she sends people into harm's way. That's not how Red Jenny works, so, again, how is your lack of knowledge about the organization a contributing factor to her hypocrisy? It's really a simple question. All I'm asking you to do is show me what you're basing the claim on, since what you're claiming isn't the "reality" of Red Jenny.