2858 réponses à ce sujet

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

No, you wouldn't.
She wouldn't have let you.
For the last blighted time, she goes mad even if you're talking to him without picking the "let's hear what you have to offer" line, she freaks out because you are talking to him, even if you are in fact accusing him, having him account for his crimes. As if Josephine would freak out every time you pick the "let's hear what he has to say in his/her defense" line while judging people. Can you imagine that? If this is the kind of justice we want to bring upon the world, I'd say let Corypheus do the work: he seems to be better organized.

That's entirely untrue.  Sera waited for me to give the order to kill the scummy noble in my playthrough. 

[Shelidon]

That's entirely untrue.  Sera waited for me to give the order to kill the scummy noble in my playthrough. 

Wait.
Did you pick any of the "question" lines with him?

[robertthebard]

No, you wouldn't.
She wouldn't have let you.
For the last blighted time, she goes mad even if you're talking to him without picking the "let's hear what you have to offer" line, she freaks out because you are talking to him, even if you are in fact accusing him, having him account for his crimes. As if Josephine would freak out every time you pick the "let's hear what he has to say in his/her defense" line while judging people. Can you imagine that? If this is the kind of justice we want to bring upon the world, I'd say let Corypheus do the work: he seems to be better organized.

...and I say, if we're even going to consider people that will straight out murder people right in front of us to cover up their duplicity, and then only surrender and "want to talk" because people that can actually fight show up, then let's just spend our time drinking in Skyhold, and let Cory win. If you're going to have standards, then killing a worthless minor noble that went through a lot of trouble to set you up through Sera shouldn't really be an issue, should it? So far, even my Inquisitors with no approval with Sera, or very little anyway, since doing the mission that leads up to this one generates some, have just told her to kill him.

[Steelcan]

...and yet, you claim it's because she sends people into harm's way. That's not how Red Jenny works, so, again, how is your lack of knowledge about the organization a contributing factor to her hypocrisy? It's really a simple question. All I'm asking you to do is show me what you're basing the claim on, since what you're claiming isn't the "reality" of Red Jenny.

Red Jenny works by using little people to enact petty revenge fantasies get back at nobles who allegedly deserve it

 

What part of sending those people, its supposedly empowering, into danger?

 

Furthermore, Sera is a hypocrite for many reasons, I can point to her concern with profit for herself over concern for others as another example.  Or her horrific double standard when it comes to religion

[Shelidon]

...and I say, if we're even going to consider people that will straight out murder people right in front of us to cover up their duplicity, and then only surrender and "want to talk" because people that can actually fight show up, then let's just spend our time drinking in Skyhold, and let Cory win.

Point missed.
Again.
<sigh>
Let's try it one other time.

Everybody is allowed to speak in his/her defense and I don't like somebody who thinks that listening pollutes your soul, as Sera does (the exact phrase after she goes on the killing spree is something like "You should thank me: he was getting in your head"). You are a judge. You'll listen and them you'll chop people's head off. Hell, I've beheaded half of Thedas, but there's a proper way of doing things. And holding a regular hearing, making the noble an example for killing "little people", would have brought more good that murdering him by kicking him in the head in a dark courtyard. Didn't get the chance to do that. Thanks, Sera. Thumbs up.
Is my point more clear, now?
I really don't know how to explain it differently anymore.

What I'm more interested by now is if really the killing spree can be avoided by doing her personal quest with a higher approval rate or something. I wasn't in a bad relationship with her, at all, since I never brought her around, but still...

[robertthebard]

Red Jenny works by using little people to enact petty revenge fantasies get back at nobles who allegedly deserve it
 
What part of sending those people, its supposedly empowering, into danger?
 
Furthermore, Sera is a hypocrite for many reasons, I can point to her concern with profit for herself over concern for others as another example.  Or her horrific double standard when it comes to religion

Recruiting Sera

Even though he went a different way than I did, where I actually asked about spies, show me where she claims to send people out into harm's way.

Edit:

1. Where in Kirkwall did Hawke enact petty revenge fantasies?

2. Where, in Origins, did the Warden go around enacting petty revenge fantasies?

Both of these are examples of the Friends of Red Jenny, so go ahead, support this claim, I'm dying to see your responses.

[Steelcan]

Recruiting Sera

Even though he went a different way than I did, where I actually asked about spies, show me where she claims to send people out into harm's way.

Obviously she'd never say she does, that's the thing about hypocrites, they are usually unaware of their hypocrisy

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Wait.
Did you pick any of the "question" lines with him?

It's not something I have recorded, unfortunately.  My memory of the dialogue is that I believe I asked one question, along the lines of why he killed the peasant, he gave a casually dismissive answer, and then I selected "Sera, kill him"

[robertthebard]

Point missed.
Again.
<sigh>
Let's try it one other time.

Everybody is allowed to speak in his/her defense and I don't like somebody who thinks that listening pollutes your soul, as Sera does (the exact phrase after she goes on the killing spree is something like "You should thank me: he was getting in your head"). You are a judge. You'll listen and them you'll chop people's head off. Hell, I've beheaded half of Thedas, but there's a proper way of doing things. And holding a regular hearing, making the noble an example for killing "little people", would have brought more good that murdering him by kicking him in the head in a dark courtyard. Didn't get the chance to do that. Thanks, Sera. Thumbs up.
Is my point more clear, now?
I really don't know how to explain it differently anymore.

What I'm more interested by now is if really the killing spree can be avoided by doing her personal quest with a higher approval rate or something. I wasn't in a bad relationship with her, at all, since I never brought her around, but still...

There is a point being missed here, but I'm not the one missing it. The "killing spree" is one guy, unless you're going to say that you'd have rather stood there and got a game over screen when his minions attacked you? Do you do that often when the bad guys are attacking you? How did you ever get out of the prologue?

[Nathair Nimheil]

What part of sending those people, its supposedly empowering, into danger?

I think you forgot some words in that sentence.

 

Furthermore, Sera is a hypocrite for many reasons, I can point to her concern with profit for herself over concern for others as another example.  Or her horrific double standard when it comes to religion

Concern with profit is not hypocrisy. Sera does not have a double standard about religion, she has standards of religious belief. I am starting to think that you just don't understand what the word hypocrisy means.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Obviously she'd never say she does, that's the thing about hypocrites, they are usually unaware of their hypocrisy

LOL!

 

So you're ascribing something that never appears in-game, either in action or dialogue.  Tell me, are you familiar with the psychological defense mechanism known as Projection?

 

Projection
Projection is a defense mechanism that involves taking our own unacceptable qualities or feelings and ascribing them to other people. For example, if you have a strong dislike for someone, you might instead believe that he or she does not like you. Projection works by allowing the expression of the desire or impulse, but in a way that the ego cannot recognize, therefore reducing anxiety.

[robertthebard]

Obviously she'd never say she does, that's the thing about hypocrites, they are usually unaware of their hypocrisy

...and some people are unaware of what words and concepts mean, but they sound cool, so they throw them around anyway. Let me guess, you didn't watch the video "Because Sera", right? Too bad, because all the proof you need to show that you're deluded in what Red Jenny is in that video. However, I can see where this dialog is just going to be circular, because despite evidence to the contrary, you're going to hold on, desperately, to your belief that she's hypocritical, because it somehow makes your life easier or something. It can't possibly have anything to do with your lack of knowledge about the situation, can it?

[Steelcan]

 
Concern with profit is not hypocrisy. Sera does not have a double standard about religion, she has standards of religious belief. I am starting to think that you just don't understand what the word hypocrisy means.

She joins the Inquisition to serve herself, not help the little people, that is not compatible with her membership in Red Jenny, she is out for herself, not the little people, thus hypocrisy

 

If Sebastian can be more tolerant and understanding of other faiths yet Sera cannot grasp that, then its not a standard part of religious belief... you know since the Chantry brother can manage to combine the two...

[Steelcan]

...and some people are unaware of what words and concepts mean, but they sound cool, so they throw them around anyway. Let me guess, you didn't watch the video "Because Sera", right? Too bad, because all the proof you need to show that you're deluded in what Red Jenny is in that video. However, I can see where this dialog is just going to be circular, because despite evidence to the contrary, you're going to hold on, desperately, to your belief that she's hypocritical, because it somehow makes your life easier or something. It can't possibly have anything to do with your lack of knowledge about the situation, can it?

I think she is hypocritical because she espouses one belief but practices another

[Shelidon]

There is a point being missed here, but I'm not the one missing it. The "killing spree" is one guy, unless you're going to say that you'd have rather stood there and got a game over screen when his minions attacked you? Do you do that often when the bad guys are attacking you? How did you ever get out of the prologue?

My friend, I am just seeing a difference between killing a random minion during gameplay and killing a NPC during a dialogue. You do understand the game mechanics makes them different, do you? I know you do.

[Nathair Nimheil]

And holding a regular hearing, making the noble an example for killing "little people", would have brought more good that murdering him by kicking him in the head in a dark courtyard. Didn't get the chance to do that. Thanks, Sera. Thumbs up.
Is my point more clear, now?^

Yes. Sera killed him without your permission and that cheesed you off.
 

What I'm more interested by now is if really the killing spree can be avoided by doing her personal quest with a higher approval rate or something. I wasn't in a bad relationship with her, at all, since I never brought her around, but still...

Really? In this game you consider one dead noble a "killing spree"? And how many Venatori did you kill for Dorian's quest?

[robertthebard]

She joins the Inquisition to serve herself, not help the little people, that is not compatible with her membership in Red Jenny, she is out for herself, not the little people, thus hypocrisy
 
If Sebastian can be more tolerant and understanding of other faiths yet Sera cannot grasp that, then its not a standard part of religious belief... you know since the Chantry brother can manage to combine the two...

So the little people won't benefit at all if the Inquisition succeeds in closing the rifts all over the continent, and in sealing the breach, which, at the time of recruitment, is all anyone sees of the threat? Who are we trying to save, again? Ourselves, or Thedas? If the latter, aren't all those "little people" included, and so, by joining the Inquisition, isn't she doing the ultimate good for "her people"?

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

I think she is hypocritical because she espouses one belief but practices another

Please do go on in detail?  I'm curious to see the comparison and contrast you view the context of this hypocrisy?  What beliefs are espoused particularly?  What beliefs are practiced?  Please provide and cite in-game examples of the conflicting beliefs versus practices?

[Shelidon]

It's not something I have recorded, unfortunately.  My memory of the dialogue is that I believe I asked one question, along the lines of why he killed the peasant, he gave a casually dismissive answer, and then I selected "Sera, kill him"

Thanks for the answer: I think it's consistent with what I experienced. First question, she interrupts and urges you to kill him. Second question, she freaks out and urges you not to listen to him. Third question, she goes right ahead and kills him. I do not know if there's a difference of reactions based on which questions you pick. I suspect is just an incremental thing, but I think it's worth investigating further.

[robertthebard]

I think she is hypocritical because she espouses one belief but practices another

Examples? It's easy to just put something up "because I said so". I provided a video to demonstrate my point. All I'm getting here is the circular argument of "I said so". Sorry, but that's really not empirical evidence, especially given your lack of understanding of Red Jenny as a whole. If you can be that uninformed about Red Jenny, despite the evidence provided, how can you be any better informed about anything else?

[Steelcan]

Please do go on in detail?  I'm curious to see the comparison and contrast you view the context of this hypocrisy?  What beliefs are espoused particularly?  What beliefs are practiced?  Please provide and cite in-game examples of the conflicting beliefs versus practices?

She espouses the belief of helping the little people, that's in her dialogue with her recruitment, no I'm not going to go scrounging for sources.

 

She practices self empowerment at the expense of others, shown when she uses her missions for Red Jenny to fill her own pockets, or how she joins the Inquisition for money and not to help people like you'd think a member of Red Jenny would

[Steelcan]

Examples? It's easy to just put something up "because I said so". I provided a video to demonstrate my point. All I'm getting here is the circular argument of "I said so". Sorry, but that's really not empirical evidence, especially given your lack of understanding of Red Jenny as a whole. If you can be that uninformed about Red Jenny, despite the evidence provided, how can you be any better informed about anything else?

What am I uninformed about?  Red Jenny is for upset servants getting petty revenge those downtrodden by nobles, but Sera uses it for self serving purposes such as stealing from said nobles

[robertthebard]

My friend, I am just seeing a difference between killing a random minion during gameplay and killing a NPC during a dialogue. You do understand the game mechanics makes them different, do you? I know you do.

I do, and really, I can't, and shouldn't attempt to "condemn" one view of that over another, because ultimately, it is a perception thing, and we see it from different perspectives. No hard feelings?

[Nathair Nimheil]

She joins the Inquisition to serve herself, not help the little people

Because you say so? I am unconvinced.
 

that is not compatible with her membership in Red Jenny, she is out for herself, not the little people, thus hypocrisy

You keep repeating that she is out for herself, but can't ever demonstrate it. We know you can't demonstrate it because it is made clear over and over again that Sera does care about "the little people". Every time "Sera approves" we get direct-to-the-player information about what she really believes and desires and this information completely refutes your claims.

[robertthebard]

What am I uninformed about?  Red Jenny is for upset servants getting petty revenge those downtrodden by nobles, but Sera uses it for self serving purposes such as stealing from said nobles

So all we're going to get is "I said so". I'll notice that you completely ignored the point about sealing the breach, and who we're trying to save. I guess it doesn't fit into your "world view". So, are you going to break up with me if I don't swing around to your way of thinking?