2858 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Hold on a second. Sera is not the first and only example. In Dragon Age she may be, but certainly not for BioWare. Does Samantha Traynor simply not exist anymore?

[Nathair Nimheil]

I think you've misunderstood me. This is pretty much a spot on summation of my understanding of "the little people".

No, obviously not since you would then be equating having and abusing significant actual power over people with (what you perceive as) having an arrogant attitude. Not the same thing and not hypocrisy.

If you don't like her 'cause she called you stupid, that's a different issue.

[movieguyabw]

I swear, it's enough to drive you to drink.

 
Could one of you specify the hypocrisy you mean.

 

Sure thing.    Someone else has given this example, on another thread but I think it sums it up nicely.

 

She talks about the snobbish behaviors of those of the aristocracy, and how they need to get off knocked off their high horses every now and then in order to show them they aren't any better than the common folk.  However, she is just as snobbish - which is especially apparent while playing a Dalish Inquisitor. 

 

Case in point - there's a party banter between her and Solas.  Solas says something to her in elven, and she farts/belches (I forget which) at him.  He asks "excuse me?" and she responds "Oh, sorry, I only use real words." 

 

She will constantly cut a Dalish Inquisior down, insult their culture, their gods, and get pissed if you tell her you aren't Andrastian.  The majority of the characters you pick up in Inquisition are Andrastian - but none of them go on crap-talking you if you have a differing religious view than them except for Sera.  Hell, if you drink from the Well of Sorrows she winds up pulling a bow/arrow on you when you get back to Skyhold.  She starts going on about how the elven gods were demons, and you have the chance to say "hey, that's my culture and my gods you're talking about".  Her response pretty much boils down to "well, you're the Herald of Andraste.  You shouldn't be worshiping demons."

 

I'm sorry, but that comes across to me as incredibly snobbish - and she seems to be on just as high a horse as the noblemen she enjoys mocking.  Sort of an "oh, you live in the woods and have your own culture/language?  That's stupid, and I don't have to acknowledge any of it.  Oh, you have different religious views than me?  Quit being such a bloody heathen.  People expect you to be Andrastian.  So be that."

 

Like I said, I'm fairly certain this was intentional; and I think it was refreshing to have a party member who can be rather difficult to like.  Even though I hate the character, that doesn't mean that I'm upset that they added her, or that I'd wish they had written her differently, or anything of that sort.  I had a deep emotional reaction to her, as if she was a real person.  That is a good thing. 

 

Edit:  Also, like I said earlier - I'm sure that if you talk to her and get to know her it turns out she's very likable.  I found however that once I started disliking her, it was a fast slope down.  Every attempt to stand up for my Inquisitor's heritage led to her getting more peeved at me, which led her to doing/saying more things that peeved me off.

 

If I had played a different character, and hadn't roleplayed them as worshiping the Dalish gods; I'm sure I'd have a different view of her.  But, again - it's not a bad thing in the slightest that I wound up disliking her. 

[Heimdall]

I understand what the Jennies do. I also understand that it's BS to assume that there are no hideous consequences for it. Their targets will lash out and hit anyone below them in retaliation, evidence or no, involved or not. This is the sort of "rebel without a clue, who cares about consequences" crap that simply does not work, at least if you actually, honestly care for "helping the little people" instead of your own "fun" and "profit". Even when one of the servants asks for a come-uppance, honest help would mean saying "Hell no, do you want to get yourself or another servant tortured and killed, or thrown out to starve in the streets?" followed by trying to get them out of there. How does stealing a noble's jewelry to reward some other yokel who made him fall on his ass on a too-slick floor (paraphrased from Sera's explanation) actually help anyone? Cheap laughs or momentary satisfaction hardly make up for the indiscriminate punishment that WILL follow.

First, I think you overestimate the consequences most servants are likely to face. Presumably most such acts are carried out in such a way that they don't implicate the servants, if you help Sera pull pranks you'll find she's actually quite considerate as to the effects of her actions. As to the stolen jewels incident, I'm not familiar with it but the point would be to reward humiliation with humiliation, letting the noble know he isn't untouchable. He'll scream at the servants a bit, but I doubt he'd start mutilating people and beating people near to death unless he thought they were involved, and as I said the Jennies would avoid implicating them. Contrary to popular belief, psychopathy is not a normal trait just because one is a noble.

Also, I feel I should mention that the Jennies don't limit their activities to nobles. The Friend in Kirkwall was interested in stopping gang activity making the streets dangerous. Their interests are more broad.
 

As for her sexuality, yes, it does not define the character. But that does not change the fact that the sole lesbian is a grotesque, immature, stereotypical caricature. When you're finally writing a single character who belongs to a marginalized, fetishized, vilified minority and the result is this? It's fucked up. Before anyone makes the predicable accusation that I only want minority characters to be perfect angels: no. Hell no. I want a wide variety of personalities and ethical stances. I want heroes and villains and anything in between. But I do not want a caricature as the first, only example. Or even the second or third. Because there's too much of that **** already in what little we see of said minorities.

...See, I guess I don't see the problem because I don't think of her as a representative of a sexuality. Also, I enjoy her character. She has more depth than you give her credit, and I applaud that she really doesn't match any archetype I've come to expect from Bioware.

[Karai9]

No, obviously not since you would then be equating having and abusing significant actual power over people with (what you perceive as) having an arrogant attitude. Not the same thing and not hypocrisy.

If you don't like her 'cause she called you stupid, that's a different issue.

No, because that's not even remotely what I was saying. What I was saying is don't act like an ass if you don't want to be treated like one.

 

Secondly, as I previously stated, and have stated a few times now, my main issue is not with Sera's debated hypocrisy, but with her attitude. From my first post:

 

"To answer the OP's question, the reason I dislike Sera's character so much is simply because of how juvenile she is about everything. I think there's a stark difference between someone that is juvenile in their innocence, and someone that is juvenile simply because they don't want to have to 'deal', and Sera definitely comes across to me as someone like this."  and  "and when she does disagree with someone her solution is to answer with something that I would expect to come out of a toddler's mouth. In game or IRL, I don't have the time or the desire to argue with a five year old adult."

[robertthebard]

Sure thing.    Someone else has given this example, on another thread but I think it sums it up nicely.
 
She talks about the snobbish behaviors of those of the aristocracy, and how they need to get off knocked off their high horses every now and then in order to show them they aren't any better than the common folk.  However, she is just as snobbish - which is especially apparent while playing a Dalish Inquisitor. 
 
Case in point - there's a party banter between her and Solas.  Solas says something to her in elven, and she farts/belches (I forget which) at him.  He asks "excuse me?" and she responds "Oh, sorry, I only use real words."

So if I spoke to you in Dutch, for example, since I only speak English and sign language, you'd be perfectly fine with me expecting you to understand what I meant, if not what I said?
 

She will constantly cut a Dalish Inquisior down, insult their culture, their gods, and get pissed if you tell her you aren't Andrastian.  The majority of the characters you pick up in Inquisition are Andrastian - but none of them go on crap-talking you if you have a differing religious view than them except for Sera.  Hell, if you drink from the Well of Sorrows she winds up pulling a bow/arrow on you when you get back to Skyhold.  She starts going on about how the elven gods were demons, and you have the chance to say "hey, that's my culture and my gods you're talking about".  Her response pretty much boils down to "well, you're the Herald of Andraste.  You shouldn't be worshiping demons."

Since you met her, she's been telling you how she doesn't do "elfy", and she's Andrastian. So sticking to her professed beliefs makes her a hypocrite? Right, we're at BSN, where rewriting the language to support an argument is accepted behavior, I forgot.
 

I'm sorry, but that comes across to me as incredibly snobbish - and she seems to be on just as high a horse as the noblemen she enjoys mocking.  Sort of an "oh, you live in the woods and have your own culture/language?  That's stupid, and I don't have to acknowledge any of it.  Oh, you have different religious views than me?  Quit being such a bloody heathen.  People expect you to be Andrastian.  So be that."

Apology accepted.
 

Like I said, I'm fairly certain this was intentional; and I think it was refreshing to have a party member who can be rather difficult to like.  Even though I hate the character, that doesn't mean that I'm upset that they added her, or that I'd wish they had written her differently, or anything of that sort.  I had a deep emotional reaction to her, as if she was a real person.  That is a good thing. 

I do, however, agree, that having party members that actually challenge the PC on some level or another is a good thing. Sera and I may not be able to coexist in the same room for very long, we're too much alike. But since she does remind me of people that I actually know, I'd have no problem accepting her at face value, for who she is. I think the Inquisitor can say something to her along the lines of "you're not like any elf I've ever met", and she says "Well, I could go barefoot and whine more". That should be a solid indicator to how she feels about "being elfy".

[StrangeStrategy]

I dislike Sera for one reason. She says she is about the Little People, but most of her goals seem to involve pranking, eating, and pissing off nobles. She wants to hurt the big people, not help the little people. And she has no issue with making the common man a target by turning them into spies for her. She doesn't realize what risks she is making others take just for her entertainment.

Apart from that, she seem really close-minded, and immature. Isabela is hilarious and clever, Sera is just a 12 year old. Immature jokes are not the same as Isabela's dirty jokes... And Sera can only be immature. She also hates mages and anything supernatural... I'm more Templar than mage, but even I don't share her views about "Lock em up in a towah and be dun wit it". That doesn't fix anything, and she doesn't seem to care that mages and Templars were little people too before they became (by choice or not) what they are.

 

That said, I don't dislike Bioware or her actual character. One of those "Strong opinions = good writing" examples. I may not like Sera personally, but I do like her character for what it is.

[Nathair Nimheil]

She talks about the snobbish behaviors of those of the aristocracy, and how they need to get off knocked off their high horses every now and then in order to show them they aren't any better than the common folk.  However, she is just as snobbish - which is especially apparent while playing a Dalish Inquisitor.

I think you're painting a whole raft of disparate elements as "snobbishness". Her problems with the aristocracy are about the imbalance and abuse of power, not their tone of voice. Likewise her disdain of the Dalish isn't snobbery; Sera has no particular status over the Dalish. It is simple antipathy. She does not like what they stand for, how they view the world and how they treat other elves. She is quite open and mocking in her contempt of them. That might irritate you but it is in no way hypocritical of her.
 

Case in point - there's a party banter between her and Solas.  Solas says something to her in elven, and she farts/belches (I forget which) at him.  He asks "excuse me?" and she responds "Oh, sorry, I only use real words."

Yes, that is an excellent case in point. Solas is being extremely pretentious, the worst kind of Elfy, speaking Elven to a group that doesn't speak the language. Sera makes pretty direct and effective fun of him for it. Well done, I thought.

[Nathair Nimheil]

No, because that's not even remotely what I was saying. What I was saying is don't act like an ass if you don't want to be treated like one.
 
Secondly, as I previously stated, and have stated a few times now, my main issue is not with Sera's debated hypocrisy, but with her attitude.

Clearly my mistake then, I guess I was confused the way you worded "I'm not concerned with her hypocrisy" in the post I was responding to: "What stands out as hypocritical to me is that Sera wishes to fight for 'the little people' and she hates people that think themselves above everyone, yet she constantly talks down to others. Have an opinion she doesn't like? Well then you're stupid and Sera's smarter/right/better than you are."

[movieguyabw]

So if I spoke to you in Dutch, for example, since I only speak English and sign language, you'd be perfectly fine with me expecting you to understand what I meant, if not what I said?
 

 

No, but I wouldn't fart in your direction and tell you to "speak English". 

 

 

 

Since you met her, she's been telling you how she doesn't do "elfy", and she's Andrastian. So sticking to her professed beliefs makes her a hypocrite?

 

No, but my statement about her being hypocritical was never about that.  She talks about the nobles being snobs towards the common folk, and deserved to be knocked off their high horse.  She's a snob towards the Dalish, and when you try pointing out her faults her response is along the lines of 'shut up, and get out of my face'.  (which actually was how she ended my last conversation with her)

 

 

 

Apology accepted.

 

Ok?

 

Look, I'm not saying Sera is in any way a bad character; nor am I suggesting that people are "wrong" for liking her, or that she is unlikable/poorly written/a terrible character.  I just didn't like her.  On a "if I met this person in real life, and she acted this way around me, her and I probably would not get along" level.  If you liked her, that's awesome.  What's with all of the hostility?  0o

 

Edit:

 

Yes, that is an excellent case in point. Solas is being extremely pretentious, the worst kind of Elfy, speaking Elven to a group that doesn't speak the language. Sera makes pretty direct and effective fun of him for it. Well done, I thought.

 

Fair enough, I saw it more as Solas speaking to her in a language he thought she might understand; and she insulted him for it.  Given that Solas wasn't there when she was recruited and I want to say this was fairly early on, I didn't think that was outside the realm of believability.  Besides, like I suggested earlier in this post - if someone were to talk to me in another language when I knew they spoke english; my response wouldn't be "I only speak real words".  It'd be more along the line of "uh, sorry.  I don't really speak (insert language)"

 

IMO the whole "if you're going to speak to me, only use a real language" mentality comes across as snobbish to me.  You're welcome to disagree with me, it is possible for people to have different opinions on a matter, or person, after all.

[Nathair Nimheil]

I dislike Sera for one reason. She says she is about the Little People, but

Actually, there are no buts here. We have been granted the gift of seeing inside the hearts and minds of the companions in the form of "Sera approves" and "Sera greatly disapproves" messages. We can literally read her mind. We also have canonical information from the writers confirming this. So we know that she actually does care about the "Little People". We know it.

 

If something you have seen seems to contradict this, I would investigate that perception. Reading this thread would be an excellent start since we have killed this particular misconception about 87 separate times here so far...

[Daerog]

I just want to point out that she does not have an issue with nobles in general. When she speaks of nobles, it is more about the immoral, uncaring, mean kind.

 

When everyone was working together in Denerim to recover, she left Denerim for Orlais because there was no point in pranking nobles who are actually helping and not treating the little people like disposable tools.

 

Edit: Before going "why didn't she stay to help?" I would just point out that she does not have the resources. She is wandering bum who hears about people needing to get even or help and acts accordingly, she is not in the business of construction or commands a spy network or has a bunch of underlings.

[Karai9]

Clearly my mistake then, I guess I was confused the way you worded "I'm not concerned with her hypocrisy" in the post I was responding to: "What stands out as hypocritical to me is that Sera wishes to fight for 'the little people' and she hates people that think themselves above everyone, yet she constantly talks down to others. Have an opinion she doesn't like? Well then you're stupid and Sera's smarter/right/better than you are."

 

 I never said that my main problem with Sera is her being hypocritical. That post was in reply to the direct question you asked me regarding in what way I found Sera hypocritical, so I stated my opinion, which happens to be different from yours.

 

You then made the assumption that I don't like Sera because she called me stupid, which is incorrect, because I had already given a very clear statement on why I don't like her character, which was why I reposted.

[movieguyabw]

I just want to point out that she does not have an issue with nobles in general. When she speaks of nobles, it is more about the immoral, uncaring, mean kind.

 

When everyone was working together in Denerim to recover, she left Denerim for Orlais because there was no point in pranking nobles who are actually helping and not treating the little people like disposable tools.

 

Edit: Before going "why didn't she stay to help?" I would just point out that she does not have the resources. She is wandering bum who hears about people needing to get even or help and acts accordingly, she is not in the business of construction or commands a spy network or has a bunch of underlings.

 

Fair enough.  I likely didn't get this conversation with her, because as I said earlier, my friendship with her spiraled downward real fast.  I could only speak to what I experienced in my game.  (for the record, I have started a new game and have recruited Sera again with a different character.  I'm likely going to see her from a different perspective this time around, since I'm not playing a devout Dalish)

[robertthebard]

Fair enough.  I likely didn't get this conversation with her, because as I said earlier, my friendship with her spiraled downward real fast.  I could only speak to what I experienced in my game.  (for the record, I have started a new game and have recruited Sera again with a different character.  I'm likely going to see her from a different perspective this time around, since I'm not playing a devout Dalish)

I'm about to get a new perspective the other way: I rolled a Dalish mage last night that's going to be a Solasmancer, so that I can get the full dose of "mean". She's going to really hate me, I'm elfy and a mage.

[movieguyabw]

^Be sure to drink from the well, too.  She *really* hates that. 

[Nathair Nimheil]

Look, I'm not saying Sera is in any way a bad character; nor am I suggesting that people are "wrong" for liking her, or that she is unlikable/poorly written/a terrible character.  I just didn't like her.  On a "if I met this person in real life, and she acted this way around me, her and I probably would not get along" level.  If you liked her, that's awesome.  What's with all of the hostility?

Perhaps it is just that what you are now telling us you're not saying has been... clarified quite a bit compared to what you were saying.

[robertthebard]

^Be sure to drink from the well, too.  She *really* hates that. 

Yeah, I'm going all out with it. If you're going to do it, do it right, that's my motto, or, it would be if I started having a motto.(Gratuitous Serenity reference FTW)

[KaiserShep]

^Be sure to drink from the well, too.  She *really* hates that. 

Approval/disapproval for this is weird. Iron Bull is the only one that disapproves of allowing Morrigan to drink.

[AzureAardvark]

Approval/disapproval for this is weird. Iron Bull is the only one that disapproves of allowing Morrigan to drink.

 

Makes sense to me.  

 

Question: who drinks the unknown super-powerful scary mystery water?

 

Rest of party: "Yeah, I really think the creepy mage outsider that we don't give two figs about should drink it. Might want to take a step or two back, y'know, just in case she turns inside out and explodes."

 

IB: "Aw, c'mon boss; chug chug chug chug chug chug chug ....!"

[robertthebard]

Makes sense to me.  
 
Question: who drinks the unknown super-powerful scary mystery water?
 
Rest of party: "Yeah, I really think the creepy mage outsider that we don't give two figs about should drink it. Might want to take a step or two back, y'know, just in case she turns inside out and explodes."
 
IB: "Aw, c'mon boss; chug chug chug chug chug chug chug ....!"

Now see, when I get to that part, I'm going to have to bring IB, just to see if he really does that...

[movieguyabw]

Perhaps it is just that what you are now telling us you're not saying has been... clarified quite a bit compared to what you were saying.

 

because I didn't feel the need to clarify in my original post that "hey, it's cool if you like this character" - I figured it was a given.  I only felt the need to go into detail with my views on the subject because people kept prodding for more information.  My first post was quoted and the person asked how I (and others) felt she was hypocritical.  So I explained.  Then I was quoted again and treated as though I was trying to flame the character - when I was just answering a question.

 

Besides, I do in fact clarify in my original post that I thought she was a good character, and congratulated Bioware on her.

[AzureAardvark]

Now see, when I get to that part, I'm going to have to bring IB, just to see if he really does that...

 

I need to figure out a better build for him; he's getting squished if I have him tank as the default, but he's soooo much fun.

Prolly just need to craft him up a buncha stuff ... he's in catch 22 land: doesn't get picked to tank because squishy, doesn't get the tank gear because he doesn't tank. 

[Sully13]

Can i just frekin like her with out haveing to justify it?

[robertthebard]

Can i just frekin like her with out haveing to justify it?

Gah, it ate my post, again.

Only if you say please...

Regarding IB, I run him as DPS with a two hander, and let Cass or IB tank, it's much more efficient that way when I'm the rogue, anyway.