2858 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

You have profoundly misunderstood the point. It is not about blame. It is not about individuals. It is about position and privilege right now.

 

Oh, I get that it's not about individuals and about position and privilege right now. That's why I find it an intellectual lazy gross oversimplification.

 

The cost of using a singular collective is that you overlook the individual and the differences between how groups of individuals come to actions and how a singular collective comes to the same. It creates a 'They' that doesn't exist except for the purpose of the frames and intended narrative, grouping people as easily described charicatures rather than the sub-factions and individuals separated by geography and culture and opportunities that they are.

 

 

Look at the last frame. Does it matter how they got there?

 

 

Certainly. The point of the comic would be entirely different if the preceding events were framed differently. That's why the comic has six panels and not just one.

 

 

Does erasing all previous frames somehow put them both on the same platform?

 

Except that's not the point of comic. The point is the dominant theme, all the other panels which exist to provide a context and and to identify an experience and actions with the same identity over a series of events. Of exploitation and hypocrisy by a single identity that should clearly believe and act differently on the basis of it's immediately previous actions.

 

The fact that there is simply two identities, one black and one white, with the 'white' identity being seen as being on the platform of success/wealth/power/influence, completely ignores all the subgroups nonetheless called white who aren't on that platform.

 

Of course, the comic would lose much of its zing if it was a white guy on a platform after climbing over a bunch of white guys and some black guys to get there. Just as the comic would lose something if the slightly-more-historically-accurate depiction of some white guys killing other white guys by the tens of thousands and then unshackling the black guy replaced the current 'I won't take this anymore' image.

[celestialfury]

The point of the comic is to make white people feel guilty for being born white.

 

It's the new version of original sin that has come with the new religion of Social Justice.

 

the point of the comic is that as a white person you do not experience institutionalized racism. Plus people don't want your guilt, they want you to understand and challenge it. 

[RavenousIron]

I don't hate her per say, I just don't like her. She's rather brash and I dislike her voice. I turned her away when she asked to join me. There's only room for one Archer in my party and that Archers name is Varric. Varric>Sera all day 'er day twice on Sunday.

[hairlessOrphan]

 

If it doesn't matter how they got there, what's the point of the comic?

As to your final question, explain what exactly "privilege" is. Because as a white person, I've become sick and tired of the racist assumption that I am "privileged".

 

Yeah, privilege is getting a callback on your resume because your name isn't "ethnic." Privilege is being allowed to walk down the street at night in "nice" neighborhoods without being stopped by the police. Privilege is when your friends describe you, and the first word they use is actually a personality trait instead of a color. Privilege is having a role-model that looks like you in whatever field you want to pursue. Privilege is people never being surprised that you're so "well-spoken," you know, because you're, well... you.

 

Sorry. You have to understand: no one blames you for having privilege. Mostly, people blame you for pretending you don't. The point isn't how you got there. The point is what you are doing with it. Because people without privilege have to struggle harder than you do to get where you are. Maybe you earned everything you have. I don't dispute that. But people without privilege have to earn much more than that just to get what you have, and they don't get what they earn.

 

It's like how naturally beautiful people with perfect bodies tell you about how difficult it is to be physically gorgeous, and that they suffer just as much as you do. You know? You want to hit them, right? Sure, maybe they work out to maintain that figure, but you have to work out twice as hard, twice as often, and you'll still never look like that. Well, that sucks, and no one blames them for being gorgeous. But when they tell you that it's just as hard for them as it is for you, you get mad.

[Dean_the_Young]

So... what? Carefully and with forethought take action while trying to minimize fallout?

 

How is that not Red Jenny?

 

Forethought and trade craft, honestly. The Red Jenny network survives more by being irrelevant and thus beneath notice than by being secure. It's prone to infiltration and exceptionally vulnerable to penetration, and I wouldn't trust Sera to think out how to make it a more effective organization.

 

Of course, it isn't trying to be an effective organization, so there are different standards of measure in play here. But 'not caring' is not the same as 'not guilty' to any given charge.

[Barathos]

Well this thread turned out beautifully, really!

 

BSN never disappoints. 

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Fair enough, I saw it more as Solas speaking to her in a language he thought she might understand; and she insulted him for it.  Given that Solas wasn't there when she was recruited and I want to say this was fairly early on, I didn't think that was outside the realm of believability.  Besides, like I suggested earlier in this post - if someone were to talk to me in another language when I knew they spoke english; my response wouldn't be "I only speak real words".  It'd be more along the line of "uh, sorry.  I don't really speak (insert language)"

I just want to correct a misreading of the scene in question.

 

When Sera rebuffs Solas speaking to her Elven, Solas explains that he is well aware that Sera does not actually know how to speak Elven.  He continues to say that he spoke it in the hopes that its rhythmic harmonics might tap into some sort of racial consciousness within Sera, an excuse which comes across as somewhat disingenuous at best, and more than a bit sneaky-creepy at worst, especially given who Solas is revealed to be.   

 

So in any case, Solas is perfectly aware that Sera doesn't understand the Elvish tongue, but continues speaking it regardless.  It's rather telling in his dismissal of whether or not it's rude, warranted, or wanted within the company of the group and Sera.

[Dean_the_Young]

Yeah, privilege is getting a callback on your resume because your name isn't "ethnic." Privilege is being allowed to walk down the street at night in "nice" neighborhoods without being stopped by the police. Privilege is when your friends describe you, and the first word they use is actually a personality trait instead of a color. Privilege is having a role-model that looks like you in whatever field you want to pursue. Privilege is people never being surprised that you're so "well-spoken," you know, because you're, well... you.

 

 

It's also the privilege in being born in a western democracy, or of having good parents, or being taught to avoid the wrong side of town, or of having good people teach you how to interact with authority figures, or of having friends who help push you further than you would go yourself, or being able to read, or getting vaccinated, or having social services and food subsidized by government, or having a teacher who only gave you respect when you met the standard rather than applauding you regardless.

 

Lots of things. Depending on your perspective, almost anything.

Sorry. You have to understand: no one blames you for having privilege. Mostly, people blame you for pretending you don't. The point isn't how you got there. The point is what you are doing with it. Because people without privilege have to struggle harder than you do to get where you are. Maybe you earned everything you have. I don't dispute that. But people without privilege have to earn much more than that just to get what you have, and they don't get what they earn.

 

Nah, there are totally people out there who will hold privilege against you and use it to deligitimize anything you say or accomplish.

 

Of course, there are also people who go around counting privilege (or unprivilege) as a sort of social pecking order. The one with the least privilege, wins. Sometimes those people also use un-privilege as excuses as to why they can't do things that, well, they could if they did.

 

 

 

It's like how naturally beautiful people with perfect bodies tell you about how difficult it is to be physically gorgeous, and that they suffer just as much as you do. You know? You want to hit them, right? Sure, maybe they work out to maintain that figure, but you have to work out twice as hard, twice as often, and you'll still never look like that. Well, that sucks, and no one blames them for being gorgeous. But when they tell you that it's just as hard for them as it is for you, you get mad.

 

 

Of course, sometimes they're right and you'll still be mad. And sometimes they have it even worse. Context is key, and highly personal in weight. Studies have indicated, for example, that a number of attractive women have less trust in others because they get complimented so often that they lose faith in the sincerity of any compliment. The assumption of 'you have it easy and get to enjoy everyone liking you' rarely factors in a perspective of 'I can't trust what most people say, it's lies.'

 

And then there's the groups that aren't so monolithic in status and position as might seem from a distance. To bring us back to Dragon Age, Tevinter Mages are a bunch in which 'privilege' and 'easy life' hardly go hand in hand.

[WarBaby2]

So in any case, Solas is perfectly aware that Sera doesn't understand the Elvish tongue, but continues speaking it regardless.  It's rather telling in his dismissal of whether or not it's rude, warranted, or wanted within the company of the group and Sera.

Kinda understandable, though. In his - very old - eyes, Sera is en par with clueless shems. As far as he's concerned, she's not more elf then Varric. Heck, he even looks down at the Dalish for blindly fumbling around with a cultural heritage they don't understand and constantly get wrong.

[hairlessOrphan]

 

Of course, sometimes they're right and you'll still be mad. And sometimes they have it even worse. Context is key, and highly personal in weight. Studies have indicated, for example, that attractive women have less trust in others because they get complimented so often that they lose faith in the sincerity of any compliment.

 

I think this right here is the key. You don't really think "not trusting compliments as much" is measurably worse over the course of a lifetime than "not being paid as much," do you? Plus being overlooked for opportunities or promotions, people being less likely to help you when you ask - and much less likely to volunteer to help you, etc... Right? Sure, there are bad things to being gorgeous. It's much harder for us to get a little privacy, and people don't always leave us alone when we ask them to. Yeah, that sucks.

 

Give me a second to feel bad for myself, here. Thanks.

 

Ok, so are you really going to argue that it's measurably worse to be attractive than unattractive? That's the crux of the argument, here. You have to actually flat-out say you would rather be ugly - or even just average! - than attractive. But, I mean, really now. Who says that?

 

A more rational alternative is to think about whether the fear of admitting the existence of privilege is forcing you into some weird contortions. That happens, of course, because we are humans and have an amygdala and emotions. But, like, don't believe in it. I strongly endorse truth over fear. The thing is, admitting to privilege is not scary. It's compassionate. And it's just.

[Dean_the_Young]

Kinda understandable, though. In his - very old - eyes, Sera is en par with clueless shems. As far as he's concerned, she's not more elf then Varric. Heck, he even looks down at the Dalish for blindly fumbling around with a cultural heritage they don't understand and constantly get wrong.

 

Huh?

 

That is, like, the exact opposite of how Solas tries to interact with Sera. Much of Solas's banter with her is trying to coax her into a more elven mindset or attitude. He never tries the same with Varric.

[WarBaby2]

Huh?

 

That is, like, the exact opposite of how Solas tries to interact with Sera. Much of Solas's banter with her is trying to coax her into a more elven mindset or attitude. He never tries the same with Varric.

Because he knows how Sera is supposed to be, doesn't mean he liked what she actually is... Solas is pretty inflexible in his world view. For him, an Elf has to be one way, everything else is not an Elf.

[Seraphim24]

Sera is kind of intuitive and erratic, Solas is forceful but somewhat empathetic. I'm pretty sure people have seen these characters before.....well... if they played video games... at some point.

 

People respond to them as they would their real-life counterparts I would assume. Not everyone is a fan of a hardened professor or a people person with a hot streak.

 

Edit: Wow how they blazes did the conversation go where it's gone? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with Sera anymore.. I'll just.. er..

[Nathair Nimheil]

If it doesn't matter how they got there, what's the point of the comic?

The point is that, once an imbalance has been created, you can not pretend that since you are no longer actively working towards creating the imbalance there is now a level playing field.

Let's say we play monopoly together, you and I. For the first four passes around the board I automatically take ownership of any property I land on and collect 2K every time I pass go, while you play by the normal rules. Then, on the fifth circuit I say "Damn, this isn't fair to you at all! Let's both play by the normal, fair rules." Sound fair? No? What are you, stuck in the past? We're playing by the same rules, it's a level playing field! What? Give back these properties? Why, that's just theft, redistribution of wealth! Why should I be punished just because things used to be different?

 

It's Hayes Iron Law of Meritocracy doubled, redoubled and turbocharged.
 

As to your final question, explain what exactly "privilege" is. Because as a white person, I've become sick and tired of the racist assumption that I am "privileged".

You are privileged, there's nothing racist about that. Privilege is simply an advantage or special right that doesn't apply equally to everyone. We're talking about privilege in the social equality arena here: You don't have to do, say or even think anything to have this kind of privilege, you don't even have to be aware of it. Neither can you wave it away or call it racist, It just is. For example, if you walk into a job interview you are significantly more likely to be judged only on your merit than if you were any other "race" or gender. This is a direct advantage, period. Whatever else may be going on that privilege applies.

 

Privilege is like a difficulty option in an rpg. Having one particular setting to Easy doesn't mean all your settings will be on Easy and it doesn't guarantee that you will win the game. However, nobody else gets to have that set to Easy, we have to play with it set to whatever we get, like: bipolar, dyslexic, poor, fat, black, inner-city lesbian (Nightmare difficulty.) That you have privilege doesn't mean you are alone in that. Even that bipolar, dyslexic, fat, black, inner-city lesbian has the completely unearned privilege of being born in America instead of the DRC or Somalia.

[Heimdall]

Yeah, privilege is getting a callback on your resume because your name isn't "ethnic." Privilege is being allowed to walk down the street at night in "nice" neighborhoods without being stopped by the police. Privilege is when your friends describe you, and the first word they use is actually a personality trait instead of a color. Privilege is having a role-model that looks like you in whatever field you want to pursue. Privilege is people never being surprised that you're so "well-spoken," you know, because you're, well... you.

Sorry. You have to understand: no one blames you for having privilege. Mostly, people blame you for pretending you don't. The point isn't how you got there. The point is what you are doing with it. Because people without privilege have to struggle harder than you do to get where you are. Maybe you earned everything you have. I don't dispute that. But people without privilege have to earn much more than that just to get what you have, and they don't get what they earn.

I know very well that I am privileged. I've even been guilted about it, frequently. What I hate is the assumption. People who don't know a thing about me think they do because I'm white. They assume that everything is easier for me. Some things are. Increasingly, most things aren't. There are millions of white people that don't live in "nice" neighborhoods or have half the advantages I know I've had. There's a more diverse selection of role models to choose from every day, or so say the diversity posters in my college that consistently exclude white males, as if our very presence is counterproductive to the idea. My point is that the assumption is completely racist, short and simple, no less racist that the things you listed. I've had people assume I'm racist and try to guilt me as if all inequality in the world was my fault for being white. So if being "privileged" means not knowing what it's like to be judged according to your skin color, I can tell you that I have an inkling.

I gotta say though, your friends are describing you by the color of your skin as your most noticible trait, I think you need new friends

[Sully13]

Solus reminded me of the "TRUE" scotts i meet who think every one should think exactly how they think and hate everyone down south. 

[WarBaby2]

She sure gives off an - idealistic without a sense of responsibility or consequence -  vibe... "I do what I think is right, let others clean up the mess". There are many characters like that in all forms of story telling, they just usually learn and grow, she doesn't... then again, there are almost all base character types in the game and non of them grows beyond their base concept. Not enough time, I guess.

[WildOrchid]

Solus reminded me of the "TRUE" scotts i meet who think every one should think exactly how they think and hate everyone down south. 

 

Mordin Solus?

[Dean_the_Young]

 

 

 

I think this right here is the key. You don't really think "not trusting compliments as much" is measurably worse over the course of a lifetime than "not being paid as much," do you? Plus being overlooked for opportunities or promotions, people being less likely to help you when you ask - and much less likely to volunteer to help you, etc... Right? Sure, there are bad things to being gorgeous. It's much harder for us to get a little privacy, and people don't always leave us alone when we ask them to. Yeah, that sucks.

 

 

I think you missed the direction I was going with that. It's not 'not trusting compliments as much' as it is 'not trusting people at all.' Between a healthy trust in rare compliments and not trusting at all, I know which is better for my mental health. Maybe you think everything else balances that out- I'd disagree. Value is subjective.

 

But being put on a pedestal is isolating... no matter how awesome people not on the pedestal may think it is. You can start with beauty, which is relatively trivial, but we could look at other things that aren't quite as awesome as they appear. The life of a mega-celebrity is great... if you ignore the rampant drug use, shambling families and friendships, depression spirals, and exceptionally high suicide rates.

 

One of the greater weaknesses of trying to define the world by 'privilege' is the unexpected consequences or costs born by those with it. You may think it's worth it... or you may not, especially if you were the one in it. Everyone thinks the other person's grass is greener, no matter who has the greatest lawn. This is why we get seemingly absurd movements such as the romanticization of the foreign impoverished ('green and sustainable'), cold war/soviet nostalgism, and that's not even touching on romanticized memory of the golden past.

 

 

Give me a second to feel bad for myself, here. Thanks.

 

 

You're welcome.

 

Also, if you'd like to feel guilty, I'll happily point out that there are real people starving to death for lack of food and water while you spend your idle leisure time discussing a luxury good that cost nearly a month's income of nearly half the world

 

You, me, all of us. If you can read this post, you are more privileged than the nearly half the world that lives on less than two and a half dollars a day.

 

 

 

Ok, so are you really going to argue that it's measurably worse to be attractive than unattractive? That's the crux of the argument, here. You have to actually flat-out say you would rather be ugly - or even just average! - than attractive. But, I mean, really now. Who says that?

 

In order. Nope, not really, absolutely, and I do.

 

(But then, I consider myself ugly/unattractive.)

 

 

 

A more rational alternative is to think about whether the fear of admitting the existence of privilege is forcing you into some weird contortions. That happens, of course, because we are humans and have an amygdala and emotions. But, like, don't believe in it. I strongly endorse truth over fear. The thing is, admitting to privilege is not scary. It's compassionate. And it's just.

 

It's also never ending, and not very useful because it's undefinable. What someone feels is privilege, others might not. What a great many people feel a certain privilege 'weighs' may be completely incorrect.

 

Where I think it really stops being useful is when it's used in pissing contests. Any privilege contest 'winner' I've met tends to quickly become dismissive of the legitimacy of any challenge to their position if the contest is given more nuance or expanded to people who, well, have it worse. Not many people want to lose to Appalachian hillbilly white ****** poverty privilege, after all.

[Heimdall]

The point is that, once an imbalance has been created, you can not pretend that since you are no longer actively working towards creating the imbalance there is now a level playing field.
Let's say we play monopoly together, you and I. For the first four passes around the board I automatically take ownership of any property I land on and collect 2K every time I pass go, while you play by the normal rules. Then, on the fifth circuit I say "Damn, this isn't fair to you at all! Let's both play by the normal, fair rules." Sound fair? No? What are you, stuck in the past? We're playing by the same rules, it's a level playing field! What? Give back these properties? Why, that's just theft, redistribution of wealth! Why should I be punished just because things used to be different?
 
It's Hayes Iron Law of Meritocracy doubled, redoubled and turbocharged.

So what you're saying is that it's an inflammatory and useless oversimplification? Got it.
 

You are privileged, there's nothing racist about that. Privilege is simply an advantage or special right that doesn't apply equally to everyone. We're talking about privilege in the social equality arena here: You don't have to do, say or even think anything to have this kind of privilege, you don't even have to be aware of it. Neither can you wave it away or call it racist, It just is. For example, if you walk into a job interview you are significantly more likely to be judged only on your merit than if you were any other "race" or gender. This is a direct advantage, period. Whatever else may be going on that privilege applies.
 
Privilege is like a difficulty option in an rpg. Having one particular setting to Easy doesn't mean all your settings will be on Easy and it doesn't guarantee that you will win the game. However, nobody else gets to have that set to Easy, we have to play with it set to whatever we get, like: bipolar, dyslexic, poor, fat, black, inner-city lesbian (Nightmare difficulty.) That you have privilege doesn't mean you are alone in that. Even that bipolar, dyslexic, fat, black, inner-city lesbian has the completely unearned privilege of being born in America instead of the DRC or Somalia.

Tell me, do you appreciate people assuming that everything is easier for you based on nothing more than your skin tone? Because that's what I resent, the assumption. And frankly it's not strictly accurate. Thanks to modern legal protection, white males are actually the easiest people in the US to fire. Black women, on the other hand, being both women and a racial minority, are so well protected it's incredibly difficult to let them go even if the individual in question is a terrible worker. Just saying.

[Dean_the_Young]

Because he knows how Sera is supposed to be, doesn't mean he liked what she actually is... Solas is pretty inflexible in his world view. For him, an Elf has to be one way, everything else is not an Elf.

 

He's a mild cultural chauvenist, true, but that doesn't challenge what you quoted.

 

(Unless that wasn't intended as a challenge?)

[WarBaby2]

He's a mild cultural chauvenist, true, but that doesn't challenge what you quoted.

 

(Unless that wasn't intended as a challenge?)

Not really, since Solas' actual intentions for engaging other characters is kinda hard to comment on after the big reveal in the end... then again, I could read too much into his character.

[celestialfury]

*fart noises* PFFTTT * I'm so RANDOM xD  *horsey laugh* UUGHHH

 

(to get back on topic)

[Dean_the_Young]

The point is that, once an imbalance has been created, you can not pretend that since you are no longer actively working towards creating the imbalance there is now a level playing field.

 

Which is wrong. There are such things as self-stabilizing systems, in which no longer working towards an imbalance or extreme allows a normal balance to form. Just as there are things as destabilizing corrections- changes intended to stabilize but actually overcompensate or perpetuate an imbalance.

 

As a point, it's a sad oversimplification of a complex problem that has no real evidence or proof of what type of system it really is and instead makes an argument by assertion 'it is.'

 

 

Let's say we play monopoly together, you and I. For the first four passes around the board I automatically take ownership of any property I land on and collect 2K every time I pass go, while you play by the normal rules. Then, on the fifth circuit I say "Damn, this isn't fair to you at all! Let's both play by the normal, fair rules." Sound fair? No? What are you, stuck in the past? We're playing by the same rules, it's a level playing field! What? Give back these properties? Why, that's just theft, redistribution of wealth! Why should I be punished just because things used to be different?

 

It's Hayes Iron Law of Meritocracy doubled, redoubled and turbocharged.

 

 

Are we factoring in the random change of players over countless generations? Because your analogy is only works as a moral imeprative for compensation if the same people who started the game under the first set of rules are the ones are making those strawman arguments at the end.

 

There's also the nature of inter-generational averaging that squander the gains of previous generations, which really can't be factored into any single-player substitution of groups for individual identity collectives. In the same way that the '1%' of history hasn't been the same 1% (or their descendents), the regular change-in of more and less skilled players will alter the context over time.
 

 

You are privileged, there's nothing racist about that. Privilege is simply an advantage or special right that doesn't apply equally to everyone. We're talking about privilege in the social equality arena here: You don't have to do, say or even think anything to have this kind of privilege, you don't even have to be aware of it. Neither can you wave it away or call it racist, It just is. For example, if you walk into a job interview you are significantly more likely to be judged only on your merit than if you were any other "race" or gender. This is a direct advantage, period. Whatever else may be going on that privilege applies.

 

 

 

On the other hand, if you work towards a context where "race" or gender are non-factors, privilege wouldn't apply. And the closer you are towards that, the less and less it would be a factor. So the same privilege which might be a boon in one context may be a nonfactor in another or a penalty in yet another.
 

 

Privilege is like a difficulty option in an rpg. Having one particular setting to Easy doesn't mean all your settings will be on Easy and it doesn't guarantee that you will win the game. However, nobody else gets to have that set to Easy, we have to play with it set to whatever we get, like: bipolar, dyslexic, poor, fat, black, inner-city lesbian (Nightmare difficulty.) That you have privilege doesn't mean you are alone in that. Even that bipolar, dyslexic, fat, black, inner-city lesbian has the completely unearned privilege of being born in America instead of the DRC or Somalia.

 

 

 

There's a good reason why pissing contests by difficulty levels are eye-roll worthy means to measure e-penis. A good player who smashes the enemy on Easy is still a good player, even if he's on easy. A poor player who fails at Nightmare is still a poor player, even with the rules involved. The difficulty setting is logically irrelevant to the skill and charater of the player- arguments based on such are useful only for emotional appeals.

 

 

Given how fluidly the privilege difficulty can change in a single playthrough in this metaphor, it becomes a less and less useful device for comparing different people with different privilege sets, or for evaluating the performance of the players involved.

[Dean_the_Young]

Not really, since Solas' actual intentions for engaging other characters is kinda hard to comment on after the big reveal in the end... then again, I could read too much into his character.

 

Solas's actual intentions are irrelevant to what his character expresses as.

 

Unless you intend to argue that he was faking his personality the entire time, and that he's really quite different, the Big Reveal didn't really challenge much about what we knew about his nature.