2858 réponses à ce sujet

[Mihura]

Oh wow, how did this thread turn into a debate on Affirmative action? This is priceless, and what in the world does Social Justice have to do with any thing related to racial or gender discrimination. You do realize that social justice is a term coined by the church for poltical reasons to give to our poltical leaders a term for helping the poor folks in their regions or districts. However, this is going a bit off topic so trying to swing back towards Sera. Her veiws tie into her Charcter and all that but I still think they could have done way better on showing these traits to show why her hate exist. However, after a while she does grow on me as good way not to do this type of charcter. You have to give reasons and show why she hates I mean look at Loghin he almost destroyed his own country because of his hatred of Orislans. If she showed growth and reasons too her hatred then I might be more inclined to like her as a charcter, but as of now, no I don't like how she was written.

I don't mind static charcters such as Sera, heck I like Valane in DAA, because she gave her reasons for her hatred and also showed sympathy to own views through her screen time. But Sera doesn't even give reasons other than its her mother fault for her hatred.

 

That is my problem with her, every other character has that but Sera is the only that seems lacking when it comes to explanations. I still think this was a implementation problem, the option to ask Sera about the past is there but never goes anywhere.

[Ryriena]

That is my problem with her, every other character has that but Sera is the only that seems lacking when it comes to explanations. I still think this was a implementation problem, the option to ask Sera about the past is there but never goes anywhere.

I agree this is what I found lacking with her charcter is that she never shows why she has this hatred other than it was her mother Fault. Which is a bs reason to give as a reason for your own behavior, heck I liked Logain in DAO because at least he admits it his own fault in the end and submits to judgement during the landsmeet. It's teaches you to hate a group but it doesn't give you the reason why you hate them. For exmaple, Valane in DA:A had her clan slaughtered by the darkspawn and thought humans had done the deed.

[NugHugs]

Eh, I find her more open minded than Morrigan. At least Sera is a part of a group and has some support for others. Morrigan broadly dismisses everyone who she does not personally know and respect (which is very few people... like maybe 5 people), and she dismisses all faiths and cultures except as possible sources of old knowledge and power for herself.

 

I still like Morrigan, but I would guess that Sera would be more popular if she was more of an intellectual instead of having a lower intelligence.

 

I really think a lot of the dislike for Sera comes from how she articulates her ideas more than anything else from the comments that I've seen so far in this thread.

 

This. She doesn't really bring much to the main story, just spitting out crude jokes and words. I like her enough to take her out and about outside the main story. I feel bad for saying this, but her character comes across as pathetic and childish majority of the time. There were moments where she doesn't sound like a lady-child, but they don't last long.

[Teddie Sage]

... I realized something earlier today. The reason why I love her so much is because I'm like her. I don't like people making things overcomplicated and I question faith and people who can't think for themselves. My only difference with Sera is that I'm a man and I use different speech patterns.

[robertthebard]

That is my problem with her, every other character has that but Sera is the only that seems lacking when it comes to explanations. I still think this was a implementation problem, the option to ask Sera about the past is there but never goes anywhere.

It can, and does go somewhere, but if all you're getting is Sera Disapproves, you're not going to see it, and that is as it should be. Why should someone that doesn't trust you open up to you? To take it one step further, why should someone that doesn't trust your motivations open up to you? This can be evidenced in this very thread, in posts from people that have indeed cracked her shell to find out things about her, and why she believes the way she does. Some of those people don't agree with her anyway, but they did learn things about her that you won't if you don't build up some approval. It's funny, because you don't even have to talk to her to do it. Do her War Table missions. Successfully completing them will build some approval. Help some of the disadvantaged people you can encounter in the course of the game, and, if she's with you, gain some approval. If you don't like her, and think that, for example, killing people that are trying to kill you is bad, it's likely you won't open up some of the dialog she has that does reveal more about her. If you're male, it's also unlikely that you'll open up other things.

This comes back to the "all content should not be available to all players" thing. Males can't romance her, she's not into men. That decision blocks some content. Just like it does for Cass, if you're female. She's not into that, so some content is gated, based on your decisions. Even if you do take the time to know her, it's possible you won't like her, she's not for everyone. However, the "she doesn't have any development through the game" is a misconception, because she really does.

[hairlessOrphan]

However, the "she doesn't have any development through the game" is a misconception, because she really does.

 

Hunh. What scene did I miss? I have friendship, saw the roof scene, did the table missions, and I've chased every conversation path I had available. The closest she came to an explanation was telling me how my killing people who are trying to end the world is exactly the same thing as her killing people she doesn't like.

 

EDIT: and the reason why I hate her is my only available responses to that were "omg good point!" and "u r weird."

Modifié par hairlessOrphan, 12 décembre 2014 - 07:48 .

[robertthebard]

Hunh. What scene did I miss? I have friendship, saw the roof scene, did the table missions, and I've chased every conversation path I had available. The closest she came to an explanation was telling me how my killing people who are trying to end the world is exactly the same thing as her killing people she doesn't like.
 
EDIT: and the reason why I hate her is my only available responses to that were "omg good point!" and "u r weird."

Evidently, you haven't, if you haven't learned how she became involved with Red Jenny in the first place. It's explained, by her. Isn't it more likely that you were "bleh, Sera" and just picking dialog at random? I realize you just said you did explore every tree, but then state that you didn't get any useful information about her. You claim you had approval, and did the roof scene, but since the roof scene goes into a lot of detail about her past, that you didn't get any detail about her past suggests that you didn't explore all the available options. Since some options won't play out until others have, pretty standard fare for the comps, it'd be really easy to miss some, if you did what you could to get out of the dialog as fast as possible.

[Ziegrif]

53 pages and still going?

Now I really wanna know what the writers ideas and opinions of Sera are.

In-depth post launch.

[hairlessOrphan]

Evidently, you haven't, if you haven't learned how she became involved with Red Jenny in the first place. It's explained, by her. Isn't it more likely that you were "bleh, Sera" and just picking dialog at random? I realize you just said you did explore every tree, but then state that you didn't get any useful information about her. You claim you had approval, and did the roof scene, but since the roof scene goes into a lot of detail about her past, that you didn't get any detail about her past suggests that you didn't explore all the available options. Since some options won't play out until others have, pretty standard fare for the comps, it'd be really easy to miss some, if you did what you could to get out of the dialog as fast as possible.

 

I got the part for how she got involved with Red Jenny. I got the orphan explanation. Her life in Denerim, and how she ended up in Orlais. What happened to her friends, some of them, not some others. Yeah, I remember it, too. All of that is a timeline, not a rationale.

 

I should point out that I didn't hate Sera from the get go, as you assume. Actually, I found her potentially fascinating. I went through all her branches and even hedged my own character's responses to trick up a little more approval because I wanted to hear her explain herself. You know, like talking to an idiot teenager you think might be capable of more than just the outright truancy? That's how I treated Sera. Right up until I ran out of options.

 

That's when I realized that's all she is. She's just her truancy, and little else. And it's not HER fault, it's her writer's fault.

[robertthebard]

I got the part for how she got involved with Red Jenny. I got the orphan explanation. Her life in Denerim, and how she ended up in Orlais. What happened to her friends, some of them, not some others. Yeah, I remember it, too. All of that is a timeline, not a rationale.
 
I should point out that I didn't hate Sera from the get go, as you assume. Actually, I found her potentially fascinating. I went through all her branches and even hedged my own character's responses to trick up a little more approval because I wanted to hear her explain herself. You know, like talking to an idiot teenager you think might be capable of more than just the outright truancy? That's how I treated Sera. Right up until I ran out of options.
 
That's when I realized that's all she is. She's just her truancy, and little else. And it's not HER fault, it's her writer's fault.

I find it odd that you can come away with that conclusion, when I didn't, but this is the part where neither one of us is wrong, because it's perception/perspective, and we don't share that. After going through her entire arc, including the romance, although as a human, I found her refreshing as a party member.

[Kalliane]

Evidently, you haven't, if you haven't learned how she became involved with Red Jenny in the first place. It's explained, by her. Isn't it more likely that you were "bleh, Sera" and just picking dialog at random? I realize you just said you did explore every tree, but then state that you didn't get any useful information about her. You claim you had approval, and did the roof scene, but since the roof scene goes into a lot of detail about her past, that you didn't get any detail about her past suggests that you didn't explore all the available options. Since some options won't play out until others have, pretty standard fare for the comps, it'd be really easy to miss some, if you did what you could to get out of the dialog as fast as possible.

 

This seems like backstory not character development.  Is there a part of the story where Sera goes through character devlopment?  For example, Iron Bull can become a tal-vashoth which really seems to affect him and change him as a character.  Is there a similar crisis point for Sera?  I couldn't find one.  I'd like to think I missed it because I wanted to like her as a character (and I do, just not as much as I wanted).  Maybe the mythal was her crisis point, but she refuses to really deal with the aftermath so her character doesn't grow or develop as a result of the mythal mission.   

[robertthebard]

This seems like backstory not character development.  Is there a part of the story where Sera goes through character devlopment?  For example, Iron Bull can become a tal-vashoth which really seems to affect him and change him as a character.  Is there a similar crisis point for Sera?  I couldn't find one.  I'd like to think I missed it because I wanted to like her as a character (and I do, just not as much as I wanted).  Maybe the mythal was her crisis point, but she refuses to really deal with the aftermath so her character doesn't grow or develop as a result of the mythal mission.

Learning to trust you as the Inquisitor, and as a friend is development. If you're waiting for that moment where she becomes another PCPuppet, you'll be waiting a while, because it won't happen. She does hold on to her beliefs, just like people here hold on to the belief that her not becoming a yes man means she didn't grow.

[hairlessOrphan]

Learning to trust you as the Inquisitor, and as a friend is development. If you're waiting for that moment where she becomes another PCPuppet, you'll be waiting a while, because it won't happen. She does hold on to her beliefs, just like people here hold on to the belief that her not becoming a yes man means she didn't grow.

 

Wow. Quite an accusation.

 

Actually, I think all we're looking for from her is to be less of a self-centered, self-rationalizing, self-justifying snot.

[TheLastArchivist]

It's funny seeing how Sera thinks she knows exactly how The People thinks, when in fact, the people is not even an homogenous group...

[Nathair Nimheil]

You know, like talking to an idiot teenager you think might be capable of more than just the outright truancy? That's how I treated Sera. Right up until I ran out of options.

I'd say therein lies the problem. She is neither an idiot nor a teenager. She is just out of her environment, and that makes her appear unsophisticated and inappropriate. She's direct and incisive in a "polite society" which considers that rude and brash (but it works a treat among the thieves and drovers down the pub.) She speaks in a gutter argot but is fluent and witty within it. She has a very "street" sense of humour but it is often cutting and incisive rather than just reflexive fart jokes. Really, I don't see why her back-story should be expected to "justify" Sera's faults when she's not actually faulty. In her own milieu Sera seems to be a roaring success. When she just decides there's work to do and leaps straight from sewer to salon I think she holds her own quite nicely among the nobles and elites. She doesn't blend, true, but she doesn't bend either.

[TheLastArchivist]

Most people are actually averse to the kind of casual philosophy she exercises in her everyday life.

 

They are morally conservative, guided by religion or another kind of faith and work hard to achieve something in life, unlike her, who takes everything so lightly, including other people's faiths and viewpoints (remeber the whole Mythal and the Maker thing?).

 

Maybe she's not simple as she thinks. Maybe she's just obnoxious and close-minded. Really, Sera, it wouldn't hurt to try and open your mind a little> Who knows? You may learn something useful and stop trying to fit the world into your narrow view of reality.

[hairlessOrphan]

I'd say therein lies the problem. She is neither an idiot nor a teenager. She is just out of her environment, and that makes her appear unsophisticated and inappropriate. She's direct and incisive in a "polite society" which considers that rude and brash (but it works a treat among the thieves and drovers down the pub.) She speaks in a gutter argot but is fluent and witty within it. She has a very "street" sense of humour but it is often cutting and incisive rather than just reflexive fart jokes. Really, I don't see why her back-story should be expected to "justify" Sera's faults when she's not actually faulty. In her own milieu Sera seems to be a roaring success. When she just decides there's work to do and leaps straight from sewer to salon I think she holds her own quite nicely among the nobles and elites. She doesn't blend, true, but she doesn't bend either.

 

Being comfortable "in her own environment" is not what makes her a teenager or an idiot. Her inability to interrogate herself does. When she uses other people - and gets them killed - it's all good for her. A total laugh riot, in fact. It's that kind of thing that makes her a teenager and an idiot.

 

Being hood is irrelevant to that.

 

EDIT: to clarify, you could put any other background on her, give her any other accent, and the result would be the same. That's what I mean by irrelevant. For her, there are only two options: do the first thing you think of (usually: kill), or do nothing. That's the mindset of either a teenager or an idiot. Maybe both.

Modifié par hairlessOrphan, 12 décembre 2014 - 08:55 .

[Seraphim24]

She is just out of her environment, and that makes her appear unsophisticated and inappropriate. She's direct and incisive in a "polite society" which considers that rude and brash (but it works a treat among the thieves and drovers down the pub.) She speaks in a gutter argot but is fluent and witty within it. She has a very "street" sense of humour but it is often cutting and incisive rather than just reflexive fart jokes. Really, I don't see why her back-story should be expected to "justify" Sera's faults when she's not actually faulty. In her own milieu Sera seems to be a roaring success. When she just decides there's work to do and leaps straight from sewer to salon I think she holds her own quite nicely among the nobles and elites. She doesn't blend, true, but she doesn't bend either.

 

I don't know if I agree with everything here, but as a summary of her character it works pretty well for me. She's basically the street-wise people person that says it straight and offends polite society with her shenanigans. Considering the DA world is full of those types  it's easy to see why they come into conflict.

[Kalliane]

Learning to trust you as the Inquisitor, and as a friend is development. If you're waiting for that moment where she becomes another PCPuppet, you'll be waiting a while, because it won't happen. She does hold on to her beliefs, just like people here hold on to the belief that her not becoming a yes man means she didn't grow.

Thanks for your answer.  And I do agree that she can become the inquisitor's friend.  The other part about her holding on to her beliefs, it seemed in my play through, not so much like she was holding on to her beliefs and more like she was refusing to accept the possibility of other people's beliefs.

[robertthebard]

Being comfortable "in her own environment" is not what makes her a teenager or an idiot. Her inability to interrogate herself does. When she uses other people - and gets them killed - it's all good for her. A total laugh riot, in fact. It's that kind of thing that makes her a teenager and an idiot.
 
Being hood is irrelevant to that.
 
EDIT: to clarify, you could put any other background on her, give her any other accent, and the result would be the same. That's what I mean by irrelevant. For her, there are only two options: do the first thing you think of (usually: kill), or do nothing. That's the mindset of either a teenager or an idiot. Maybe both.

You know, you keep saying that you understand things and then post the bolded above, that shows you really didn't pay any attention at all. This has been explained so often that it's rote. Videos have been linked to show that it's not even close to true, and yet, here you are, ironically enough, pulling a Sera about it. I can see you stamping your foot along with "I said it, so it has to be right, and you're just stupid for disagreeing with me". The image in my head is really cute too, can't stop chuckling about it.

[hairlessOrphan]

You know, you keep saying that you understand things and then post the bolded above, that shows you really didn't pay any attention at all. This has been explained so often that it's rote. Videos have been linked to show that it's not even close to true, and yet, here you are, ironically enough, pulling a Sera about it. I can see you stamping your foot along with "I said it, so it has to be right, and you're just stupid for disagreeing with me". The image in my head is really cute too, can't stop chuckling about it.

Her very first table mission, she gets a bunch of servants killed. If you call her out on it, her response is, "Well, maybe... nope. I was right."

 

There's a conversation about magic, where she tells you magic is bad. If you're a mage, you can tell her it's not actually a bad thing, and it's a part of your character. She then says, "great, now you made me feel bad." Some might consider this an invitation to reflect on one's prejudices against magic. But not Sera. Not only does she not change her mind (borderline teenager, but acceptable), she gets mad at you for making her feel wrong!

 

Who does that? Like, what kind of person flat-out admits they were wrong, but instead of taking advantage of the opportunity to be better, instead gets mad at the person who shows them they were wrong?

 

That's a trick question.

 

EDIT: I want to point out, again, that none of this has anything to do with her background, or tragic history, or her accent. Any character is subject to this. Vivienne does much the same in places, and I think of her as a child, as well.

Modifié par hairlessOrphan, 12 décembre 2014 - 09:11 .

[KaiserShep]

Wow. Quite an accusation.
 
Actually, I think all we're looking for from her is to be less of a self-centered, self-rationalizing, self-justifying snot.

Well, it's like the song says: Sera was never an agreeable girl.

[Nathair Nimheil]

Most people are actually averse to the kind of casual philosophy she exercises in her everyday life.
 
They are morally conservative, guided by religion or another kind of faith and work hard to achieve something in life, unlike her, who takes everything so lightly, including other people's faiths and viewpoints (remeber the whole Mythal and the Maker thing?).
 
Maybe she's not simple as she thinks. Maybe she's just obnoxious and close-minded. Really, Sera, it wouldn't hurt to try and open your mind a little> Who knows? You may learn something useful and stop trying to fit the world into your narrow view of reality.

I was with you until about half way through that. Yes, many people are going to be averse to her liberal, anarchosocialist, flippant-if-not-iconoclastic world view. Conservative, traditional, leaning to some degree towards authoritarianism, somewhat other-directed perhaps, such people are pretty mainstream in today's environment. Sera is going to get right up their nose in short order.

...and that's where we part company.

Sera does not take other people's faiths or views lightly. If she didn't take them seriously she wouldn't argue so passionately about them. What she does not do is necessarily treat those beliefs with respect...but why should she? Beliefs are just ideas, and some of them are vacuous, or evil. What she doesn't do is give lip service to "open mindedness" when she encounters such wrong... and why should she? After all, it's not like the conservative, religious, authoritarian folks that she offends are particularly open minded, "not very open minded" is what "conservative" means.

[robertthebard]

Her very first table mission, she gets a bunch of servants killed. If you call her out on it, her response is, "Well, maybe... nope. I was right."
 
There's a conversation about magic, where she tells you magic is bad. If you're a mage, you can tell her it's not actually a bad thing, and it's a part of your character. She then says, "great, now you made me feel bad." Some might consider this an invitation to reflect on one's prejudices against magic. But not Sera. Not only does she not change her mind (borderline teenager, but acceptable), she gets mad at you for making her feel wrong!
 
Who does that? Like, what kind of person flat-out admits they were wrong, but instead of taking advantage of the opportunity to be better, instead gets mad at the person who shows them they were wrong?
 
That's a trick question.
 
EDIT: I want to point out, again, that none of this has anything to do with her background, or tragic history, or her accent. Any character is subject to this. Vivienne does much the same in places, and I think of her as a child, as well.

See, there it is again. You tell us you understand, but you don't understand. So I guess the answer to your trick question is you? Because we've demonstrated over and over how Red Jenny functions, and you insist that it's her fault.

Edit: The very first operation to pop up for Red Jenny is "The Inquisition needs bees".

[hairlessOrphan]

 

Well, it's like the song says: Sera was never an agreeable girl.

 

That, of all things, may be the only thing I like about her. I'm a big fan of people who are not agreeable and can back it up.

 

That's my problem. I don't like how they made her not agreeable. She can't back it up. It feels so ... flimsy. Transparent.

 

I kept getting at her because I was hoping that there was some secret conversation thread where she challenges your conception of power, and what kinds of options the powerless actually have. 

 

See, this is what I'm trying to get at. Your character, from the moment you Click to Continue, is Powerful. You have The Green Hand, and that gives you options. You are born into options.

 

Sera SHOULD have been the voice that says: hey, those things you take for granted? Having a voice, and having options, and having resources, and having allies? Not everyone has those. Sera SHOULD have been the voice that says: hey, you think you got it bad, trying to put out the fire? Find the person who used to live in the hut that's on fire.

 

That's not what she does, though. She validates your sense of elitism. Because she's the nominal representative of the powerless, and she's dumb. She makes you think you deserve your power, because you're smart, and people who are powerless deserve to be powerless, because they're dumb, short-sighted, impulsive, and selfish. I just... it's just such a wasted opportunity.