The thing to remember about Sera is that she is no more likely to change her mind than is the average poster in a 50-page thread.
I know and that is probably the only thing I actually like about her. If she doesn't fit your ideas and what you represent then its best to give her the boot. It's not like any companions are shedding tears once she's gone.
I know it's the topic I just feel like no matter what people post they dislike about her it seems someone(not you just an example) feels we aren't being fair and needs to explain her for us "Well you just don't understand. Sera is this way but you can't see that this is why you are wrong." I mean sometimes you just don't like a person, should we feel bad because people exist that we don't like or something?
Sera makes this very clear very early. When explaining to you about the Red Jennys she says something about "my people". Inquisitor says "Your people, you mean the Elves?" and Sera says "No. People people." She doesn't consider the elves her people, she considers people her people. How could that be a bad thing?I understand Dalish and city elves have different cultures. But they are of the same people, and from my point of view Sera doesn't care. Playing Origins it was obvious that city elf culture was almost as the Dalish when it came to their community and family. City elves are a closely knit society, as are the Dalish. They care about their people. My point was Sera could careless if you were a city elf or Dalish, she dislike her own people period.
If you go back about a thousand posts you'll find me saying that one of the big problems some people have with Sera is that she doesn't do tribalism or doesn't care enough about tribalism.
I don't think the tribalism angle is consistent with the character. Maybe you mean she doesn't buy into racial tribes or national tribes. But she definitely has tribes. There are demographics she identifies with and demographics she dismisses and dehumanizes.
It may just be me lol. It just seemed her thought process bounces all over the dang place and I couldn't follow it. I just smiled, nodded and walked away lol
Pretty much my response to her, as well. Some characters look to be worth a bit of extra effort. For me, Sera wasn't one of them. I wouldn't say I "hate" her. I'm just not motivated to seek out her company.
For me it's been a bit of a problem that the initial party had such a congenial feel to it. I assume they'll run out of conversation eventually and I don't was to miss out on character-related quests like Jar of Bees so I've made some effort to mix things up, but such metagaming considerations aside I'd be quite content just to hang out with the initial three party members.
The "tribalism angle" isn't about Sera. It's about some of the people who don't like Sera: She is an elf who doesn't support Elfiness. She is an Elf who doesn't shag elves. She joins the Inquisition but doesn't become a Team Inquisition cheerleader. She is a gf who doesn't properly support the Inquisitor's opinions. She doesn't sufficiently derive her identity from group membership or properly adopt group loyalties.I don't think the tribalism angle is consistent with the character. Maybe you mean she doesn't buy into racial tribes or national tribes.
I said "she doesn't do tribalism or doesn't care enough about tribalism". I even put the qualifier "enough" in italics for emphasis so that we wouldn't have to quibble about whether Sera does draw enough of her identity from some group or other to be considered marginally tribal or not. It is clear that she does not subsume her identity enough into the groups that some people think she should.But she definitely has tribes.
I said "she doesn't do tribalism or doesn't care enough about tribalism". I even put the qualifier "enough" in italics for emphasis so that we wouldn't have to quibble about whether Sera does draw enough of her identity from some group or other to be considered marginally tribal or not. It is clear that she does not subsume her identity enough into the groups that some people think she should.
I know what you said. I think what you meant was "she doesn't do racial or national tribalism or doesn't care enough about racial or national tribalism." It is clear that she does not subsume her racial or national identity enough into the etc... Because the tribe(s) she does identify with, she clearly identifies with more than enough for some people's tastes.
And what tribe(s) are those?I know what you said. I think what you meant was "she doesn't do racial or national tribalism or doesn't care enough about racial or national tribalism." It is clear that she does not subsume her racial or national identity enough into the etc... Because the tribe(s) she does identify with, she clearly identifies with more than enough for some people's tastes.
Nope. And now I'm thinking that you might not be all that familiar with the term tribalism. Remember that Sera often proclaims that friends are more important than anything. That is the exact opposite of tribalism.I know what you said. I think what you meant was "she doesn't do racial or national tribalism or doesn't care enough about racial or national tribalism."
No, she is ideological; that is not the same thing.Because the tribe(s) she does identify with, she clearly identifies with more than enough for some people's tastes.
Nope. And now I'm thinking that you might not be all that familiar with the term tribalism. Remember that Sera often proclaims that friends are more important than anything. That is the exact opposite of tribalism.
No, she is ideological; that is not the same thing.
Tribalism is a social identity. She has one. Also, tribalism is not the opposite of friends. That's not a very sound claim, is it? A lot of fiercely nationalistic people have uttered those words, and some even think they believe them.
We can at least agree that having a tribe and being ideological are not synonymous. And yet, neither are they mutually exclusive. She is both.
It is clear that she does not subsume her racial or national identity enough into the etc... Because the tribe(s) she does identify with, she clearly identifies with more than enough for some people's tastes.
I don't quite understand what you mean here. How can she attach herself too little to a racial or national identity? And what tribe(s) does she clearly identify with?
It seems to me that many got different opinions about who she really is, judging by this thread, so it doesn't look clear to me at least.
Sure, I got my own opinion on this and I find her opposite to the many negative opinions. I don't think I consider her in an extremely clinical way either, because I honestly wish that all the 'Sera' out there get more love and comfort, not less and more punishment.
*Hug a Sera today!*
Somewhat related does the debate about Sera remind me about a challenge when handling troubled youth.
Those that can get angry at what you say, those that might be tricket, misguided and emotionally drawn to some environments, troublesome groups and some activities are the ones that can be helped. They can be reached and can get what I imagine americans would call "wholesome-lifestyles".
Those that doesn't care what you think, or what their "cause" does and idols think will we not reach - They might accept bad results, abuse of others, nihilistic and destructive behaviours as lifestyles as inherently equally acceptable as any other in a form of individualism, freedom of expression and whatnot.
True villains and what some philosophers conclude with being the true actual evil in a non-religious term will be in the last group. They won't change easily because they don't care about you, your objections, or even their own objections.
This is like empathy. Empathy can be trained, and un-trained, like with trust. (I want to mention the psychologist Alice Miller in this regard, she writes about things like this in books that everyone can understand)
And what we think shapes us, if you think that you don't want to care that others get hurt "because....x", then is it easier to care less the next time someone get hurt and it will be easier to find that someone is "because...x" as a convenient free-card to hurt someone else. (It is so much research on this despite how far from many young people's rhetoric it might seem.)
This might not be anything related to what HairlessOrphan mean with group affiliations or identity (because I do not know what is meant in that post), but Sera does identify herself with someone that has been abused and does see that others are getting abused unnecessarily both by others getting away with it, but also because those abused think it is a part of reality (nearly as if identifying as "those that should accept being abused") and doesn't see/dare to look for ways out of it. So while it might seem like she superficially puts the identity of her past above other things, do I think it would be more fair to say she refuses to be a bad person and she will fight bad persons, in short a rather liberal-minded ideal, with radical results, perhaps radical because of the social rules, the lack of actual justice (it IS accepted slavery and abuse in her world after all). Does she have all the details right? I doubt it, like who does?
But then...I do not know what the writers had in mind, their planning of Sera's behaviour and how they went forth when arguing for her background, or resulting personality. It might be just superficial patchwork that looks very real, or it might be thoughtfully planned 
She does however look quite clear to me, especially since she says these things herself (or so I read her words).
Tribalism is a social identity. She has one.
Tribalism, social identity is when one's idea of self is, in part, derived from group membership. Tribalism is about conformity and loyalty. This thread is jammed full of people pointing out how "rude", "weird", "strange", "selfish" and "disloyal" Sera is, how she is not "normal". These are all terms highlighting her individualism and non-conformity, her utter disregard for group norms.
Also, tribalism is not the opposite of friends. That's not a very sound claim, is it?
It is not a claim I made. Sera doesn't just "have friends", she believes that friends are more important than anything. (If you going to split hairs, don't casually paraphrase first, OK?) Given the opportunity she finds friends among all social strata and all races (including falling in love with an elf) and constantly reminds us that she regards these entirely disparate individuals as more important to her than any group.
Tribalism, social identity is when one's idea of self is, in part, derived from group membership. Tribalism is about conformity and loyalty.
Yes, this. Sera has a loyalty to an identity (a "commoner and the common man" identity), and she doesn't deviate from its norms, either. She is quick to the defense of certain people not as individuals, but as their identity - she gets mad if you **** on faceless commoners not because she's personally friends with them, but because they share an identity. For example. Just as the most obvious example.
I struggle to think of an example where Sera demonstrates that friendship is more important to her than this identity. She says a lot of things, but that's part of her charm, isn't it? Talking a lot.
EDIT: I should note, you are correct: my paraphrasing unintentionally changed the meaning. Sorry, I was trying to cut words, and I cut too many.
Modifié par hairlessOrphan, 13 décembre 2014 - 08:44 .
I don't quite understand what you mean here. How can she attach herself too little to a racial or national identity? And what tribe(s) does she clearly identify with?
I don't really know how one can attach oneself "too little" to a racial or national identity, honestly. That part was a quote of previous posts.
As far as the tribe(s) she clearly identifies with... Sera's entire character hook is her social identity. That's her Big Unique Thing, right? Her selling point? That's what I mean when I say (as I have earlier in this thread somewhere) that she was written to be social or ideological role in the game, and not to be a character. Contrast this with Iron Bull, The. His character hook is big tough secret agent badass, right? But the actual writing subverts that hook. Despite all his talk, he isn't clearly strong enough to live within the Qun - that's the point of his personal quest. You get to make or break him.
That's why I don't really care for him either way, but I love him as a character. I think he's a well-written character.
Sera never has that moment of subtlety or conflict or ambiguity - or, really, anything. She starts in and stays in her ideologically cliched constraints. Worse, she defends them poorly. There are good reasons to be very Sera-like - and, in fact, a lot of those reasons are written... in this thread. But not in the game. Right? That's my problem with Sera. I feel like this thread isn't actually defending Sera as she's written, but rather defending the idea of identifying with the common man, defending the idea of being subversive and independent. And we're arguing that because the actual writing in-game does that defense so poorly.
So you are claiming that the entirety of the lower classes of Thedas are a single social culture. Proletariat and petite bourgeoisie, city elves, homeless thieves, servants of the aristocracy, soldiers and bartenders... all a single social tribe? No.Sera has a loyalty to an identity (a "commoner and the common man" identity), and she doesn't deviate from its norms, either.
Yes, I don't wonder that you had trouble finding an example since you have exactly the wrong end of the stick here. Sera defends what you call "faceless commoners" because they are not "faceless". She is not outraged because she is part of their tribe but because you are treating people as disposable. Sera's tribe is people. (As she herself proclaims.) She judges based upon actions, not membership in a group. That's why she can be buddies with a human noble Inquisitor depending on his actions.She is quick to the defense of certain people not as individuals, but as their identity - she gets mad if you **** on faceless commoners not because she's personally friends with them, but because they share an identity. For example. Just as the most obvious example.
Sera and Josephine is the first example that leaps to my mind here.I struggle to think of an example where Sera demonstrates that friendship is more important to her than this identity.
Sera and Josephine is the first example that leaps to my mind here.
What happens between these two?
I don't really know how one can attach oneself "too little" to a racial or national identity, honestly. That part was a quote of previous posts.
As far as the tribe(s) she clearly identifies with... Sera's entire character hook is her social identity. That's her Big Unique Thing, right? Her selling point? That's what I mean when I say (as I have earlier in this thread somewhere) that she was written to be social or ideological role in the game, and not to be a character. Contrast this with Iron Bull, The. His character hook is big tough secret agent badass, right? But the actual writing subverts that hook. Despite all his talk, he isn't clearly strong enough to live within the Qun - that's the point of his personal quest. You get to make or break him.
That's why I don't really care for him either way, but I love him as a character. I think he's a well-written character.
Sera never has that moment of subtlety or conflict or ambiguity - or, really, anything. She starts in and stays in her ideologically cliched constraints. Worse, she defends them poorly. There are good reasons to be very Sera-like - and, in fact, a lot of those reasons are written... in this thread. But not in the game. Right? That's my problem with Sera. I feel like this thread isn't actually defending Sera as she's written, but rather defending the idea of identifying with the common man, defending the idea of being subversive and independent. And we're arguing that because the actual writing in-game does that defense so poorly.
I think I understand. I personally find that her reasoning has been given well enough in the game, but I do easily want to "nurture", care for and mediate for persons.
Might make me seem like a hen-mother in some eyes, but I do think that the more we understand about each other, the more forgiving will we be. It is kind of like "walking in these shoes", be it from reading a book, watching a movie, or playing a game.
I seem to remember Jack in Mass Effect got similar reactions. I'd also say that Anders in DA2 had some signs of the same temperaments, but with more radical results. I also seem to remember someone writing about Sten in somewhat similar terms, but still as a cool guy (because he was male and it suits the norms better?). It is certainly complicated.
It would have been fantastic if some writers could come and make some comments, or blogs, unless they think that might ruin the mystique
However, I got a date with Josephine...I mean my elven alter ego that doesn't care so much about troubled youth, angry religious mobs and doomsday, but get a silly smile just thinking about Josephine.
I am so impressed with their characters, really cool considering I am not a person that care to read much romance and drama novellas.
Here is the problem. You have said two different things. That she was written to portray a specific social and/or ideological position is not to say that she therefore has a tribal social identity and it is certainly not any kind of an indication that she is broadly tribal which, after all, is what I said the problem was; that she isn't seen as tribal enough to make some people comfortable with her.Sera's entire character hook is her social identity. That's her Big Unique Thing, right? Her selling point? That's what I mean when I say (as I have earlier in this thread somewhere) that she was written to be social or ideological role in the game, and not to be a character.
So you are claiming that the entirety of the lower classes of Thedas are a single social culture.
I don't. Sera does. That's kind of my point, and it's kind of why I said "faceless commoners." See, what this leads to is the counterpoint of "faceless nobles," which is a tribal demarcation Sera subscribes to, right? I guess that's what I'm trying to get at, but it just seems so gauche to say it outright.
About Alice Miller if anyone is curious and this is the first book I read from her: http://www.alice-mil...s_en.php?page=2
I think you can get some previews, but not sure how it is now. She died a few years ago and things might have changed.
Here is the problem. You have said two different things. That she was written to portray a specific social and/or ideological position is not to say that she therefore has a tribal social identity and it is certainly not any kind of an indication that she is broadly tribal which, after all, is what I said the problem was; that she isn't seen as tribal enough to make some people comfortable with her.
No, they are not different things. Again, ideology and tribalism are not mutually exclusive.
Might make me seem like a hen-mother in some eyes, but I do think that the more we understand about each other, the more forgiving will we be. It is kind of like "walking in these shoes", be it from reading a book, watching a movie, or playing a game.
I seem to remember Jack in Mass Effect got similar reactions. I'd also say that Anders in DA2 had some signs of the same temperaments, but with more radical results. I also seem to remember someone writing about Sten in somewhat similar terms, but still as a cool guy (because he was male and it suits the norms better?). It is certainly complicated.
Yeah, see, I thought Jack was an ok-written character. I hope no one cares about ME2 spoilers up in here; I'll try to avoid them. The thing with Jack is she would reflect, and that reflection gave some kind of insight into a human being's development. I wasn't sure if I liked her softening up - sure, I think she became a better person, but she's not a person. She's a character. So as a character, I thought it would have been kind of amazing if she didn't go momma bear, but just came to a better understanding of why she was so ... Jack.
Sera makes this very clear very early. When explaining to you about the Red Jennys she says something about "my people". Inquisitor says "Your people, you mean the Elves?" and Sera says "No. People people." She doesn't consider the elves her people, she considers people her people. How could that be a bad thing?
If you go back about a thousand posts you'll find me saying that one of the big problems some people have with Sera is that she doesn't do tribalism or doesn't care enough about tribalism. That's all I see here. By accident of birth Sera is an elf, that doesn't mean she must define herself by that accident any more than Krem must. What makes it more pronounced is that Sera has a very clearly delineated personal code and the Dalish are, by those standards, rather vile losers and she says so at every opportunity. Also, as you mentioned earlier, she is sexually attracted to big walking slabs of woman-muscle so, in general, elves are just not going to ring her bell; nothing wrong with that.
When Sera first meet you she says "Uh you're an elf, I hope you're not too elfy," Her telling you about her people comes later in the conversation. She has already made a preconception of you just because you're an elf. I understand she may define herself as an accident, being an elf. But that point is moot, because the entire point of this thread was to post why you dislike Sera and I did. One of the reasons I dislike her was because she dislikes her own people (elves). No matter if she thinks of herself as an elf or not, it's annoying how she disdains them being one herself (biologically).
Edit: And Krem and Sera have two different things going on. Sure Krem see's himself as a men, but he doesn't dislike women. Sera on the other hand may see herself as not being an elf, but she dislikes them. You can change genders, but I doubt you can change race.
I'm very thankful the writers understand I DON'T NEED to like every character. I can appreciate some characters *cough* Sera *cough* make me want to stab an ice pick through their eye and that elicit mental reaction means that they, the writers, effectively provoked a response. Art is meant to draw a reaction and make us think. Job well done. I appreciate her for the fact that she makes me want to tie her shoe laces and push her down a flight of stairs.
For as much as I dislike her, I wouldn't want her removed from the game. I take great pride in removing her from my party and having that option is gratifying. For all those people who say that you can't change the outcome of the game... try removing a character and get back to me.
I don't think he's saying they are. He's saying that Sera isn't tribal. Her feelings toward the common man are ideological, not part of a tribal identity.No, they are not different things. Again, ideology and tribalism are not mutually exclusive.
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