2858 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

I'm not sure why this is okay because she only is like that to one race?
 
If a bi LI was sexist to one gender would "well he's not sexist to the other!" seriously fly as an excuse?

I have to ask: Why are you so rigid in your belief that she's wrong, and yet, you claim she's wrong because she's rigid in her beliefs?

This logic is why I've largely reduced my input to "Smile and nod". Somewhere upthread someone pointed out that people hate in Sera things they hate in themselves, and while I don't subscribe to that notion, I have to wonder if it's at least partially true. There are plenty of reasons to dislike or even hate her, depending on one's world views. So I doubt that a blanket statement to that effect is accurate. However, we then have posts like this one, where the poster is essentially coming at the dialog the same way Sera would. They then throw out "people that 'defend' her are trying to tell us who we can or can't like", and frankly, that's an approach that Sera would use as well. I wonder though, how many of them are in the Viv thread defending Viv? So are they, in essence, telling others who they can or cannot like?

[WildOrchid]

At first I couldn't stand her. I didn't understand what she was saying to me. xd 

After some time I started to kinda like her. She's annoying though, I have to admit it but she has good moments. I like a pranks and sitting on roof thing. 

 

What is happening when you don't agree with her? Did she leave you? Or it's just rival relation with her?

 

Wel there are guesses that Sera stays with you with low approvals. She doesn't leave. Or so people think anyway.

[Nathair Nimheil]

I'm not sure why this is okay because she only is like that to one race?
 
If a bi LI was sexist to one gender would "well he's not sexist to the other!" seriously fly as an excuse?

She is not like that to one race. Her own personal standards directly conflict with the Dalish ethos. Dalish isn't a race, remember, it's a culture and belief system. Her disdain for the Dalish is about race in the same way that disdain for white supremacists is about race. Remember, she has no problem with an elven Inquisitor as long as you don't embrace Dalism.

[Elanor]

Wel there are guesses that Sera stays with you with low approvals. She doesn't leave. Or so people think anyway.

 

I don't really understand the approval system here. Davs said before that it can be something like DA2 that you can be friendly or rival with your companion but it seems more like DA:O to me from what I have heard. 

[Ryzaki]

I have to ask: Why are you so rigid in your belief that she's wrong, and yet, you claim she's wrong because she's rigid in her beliefs?

This logic is why I've largely reduced my input to "Smile and nod". Somewhere upthread someone pointed out that people hate in Sera things they hate in themselves, and while I don't subscribe to that notion, I have to wonder if it's at least partially true. There are plenty of reasons to dislike or even hate her, depending on one's world views. So I doubt that a blanket statement to that effect is accurate. However, we then have posts like this one, where the poster is essentially coming at the dialog the same way Sera would. They then throw out "people that 'defend' her are trying to tell us who we can or can't like", and frankly, that's an approach that Sera would use as well. I wonder though, how many of them are in the Viv thread defending Viv? So are they, in essence, telling others who they can or cannot like?

 

I'm not claiming she's wrong for believing in the maker. I'm claiming her refusal to even be friends with the PC over something she brought up and refused to drop that actually has no impact whatsoever on their relationship is a bit screwy. The PC doesn't bring it up. The PC doesn't attempt to convert her. The PC simply says she believes differently...and that's somehow going too far. The PCs beliefs effects no one but herself.

 

So yeah not sure why you think that logic is applicable.

 

Also lmfao. I'm not telling anyone who they should or shouldn't like. I like some pretty unpopular characters myself. Part of that is realizing yes people have perfectly valid reasons not to like someone you do.

 

 

I'll admit, that scene should've have had a compromise or something, but really that was the writing.

 

Or for teh dramaz.....

 

Knowing BW it was the latter.

[WildOrchid]

I don't really understand the approval system here. Davs said before that it can be something like DA2 that you can be friendly or rival with your companion but it seems more like DA:O to me from what I have heard. 

 

It's also maybe the reason why she's the only one that can get kicked out anytime where others don't have this option but can leave if low approval (then again Dorian stays until the enemy is defeated, then leaves). I'm not really sure.

[robertthebard]

I'm not claiming she's wrong for believing in the maker. I'm claiming her refusal to even be friends with the PC over something she brought up and refused to drop that actually has no impact whatsoever on their relationship is a bit screwy.
 
So yeah not sure why you think that logic is applicable.
 
Also lmfao. I'm not telling anyone who they should or shouldn't like. I like some pretty unpopular characters myself. Part of that is realizing yes people have perfectly valid reasons not to like someone you do.

It's simple, really, you're challenging her beliefs by stating you believe what you saw. It has every bit as much an effect on her as her rejection is having on you, whether you've actually experienced it or not. She's stuck to this position since you recruited her, and I just finished playing this segment on my mage about 10 minutes before I posted the post you quoted, so it's still fresh, as soon as you say "It's nice to talk to another elf" she disapproves.

You have a very strong opinion that she's wrong. If the forum gave out Approval/Disapproval like game dialog, you would very much disapprove of my post, because I challenged the validity of what you believe. Yet, you feel she's wrong to do the same? If you press the issue of your elfyness with her, yes, she will drop you like a hot rock, including being friends. You are exemplifying everything that she defines as "elfyness", why wouldn't she? The better question is: Why shouldn't she? Because the player believes she should "grow" into liking and believing what the player likes and believes? That would be OOC for her, wouldn't it?

[Nathair Nimheil]

Everyone has principles.

Would that that were true,
 

I just wish people could see why Sera acts that way, or even accept her principles and move on.

I think the latter is a large part of the problem. As I have said before, I think there's a correlation between Sera's politics and the fact that she's often so despised. (Along with the usual gender related stuff, tone stuff, dialect stuff.) A lot of the people loathing Sera mention things like her disdain for faith, or "intolerance" of people's religion or her socialist/communist/leftist/etc. politics, her wanting to start a class war, her "fake" concern for the common proles. I haven't seen a whole lot of people saying "I love Sera's commitment to social justice and racial equity and I love her skeptical view of religion in light of revelations about the reality of the Fade but I still don't like her because...." I think Sera really infuriates a large portion of the political spectrum, the more conservative and/or more religious, the laissez faire rightie-libertarians, Randians, etc. It doesn't really matter what she does in-game when her fundamental principles are going to gore thier ox every time she opens her mouth.

[Nathair Nimheil]

as soon as you say "It's nice to talk to another elf" she disapproves.

I think it's interesting that a number of people think her negative reaction is somehow racist, when it is exactly the opposite. It's a negative reaction to the Inquisitor's racism.

How would people react if someone said "Gee, it's nice to talk to another White person"?

[Ryzaki]

It's simple, really, you're challenging her beliefs by stating you believe what you saw. It has every bit as much an effect on her as her rejection is having on you, whether you've actually experienced it or not. She's stuck to this position since you recruited her, and I just finished playing this segment on my mage about 10 minutes before I posted the post you quoted, so it's still fresh, as soon as you say "It's nice to talk to another elf" she disapproves.

You have a very strong opinion that she's wrong. If the forum gave out Approval/Disapproval like game dialog, you would very much disapprove of my post, because I challenged the validity of what you believe. Yet, you feel she's wrong to do the same? If you press the issue of your elfyness with her, yes, she will drop you like a hot rock, including being friends. You are exemplifying everything that she defines as "elfyness", why wouldn't she? The better question is: Why shouldn't she? Because the player believes she should "grow" into liking and believing what the player likes and believes? That would be OOC for her, wouldn't it?

 

After she asked me what I thought about it yes. She brings it up.

 

Um...no. There's a difference in simply disapproving and the whole "we're not friends anymore" bit. One can disagree with friends about certain issues while still remaining friends. Particularly something that doesn't effect me personally. Again I already said I was fine with her dumping the PC over it. It's the "we're not friends." anymore that just makes me smh. If you're willing to dump a friend over something that minor...you really weren't friends at all.

 

Now you're saying I expect the companions to kowtow to my whims? Really? I feel Dorian's views on slavery were atrocious, we discussed it, disagreed and the conversation ended. He was still my Inquisitor's friend even if they disagreed.

[Heimdall]

 or her socialist/communist/leftist/etc. politics, her wanting to start a class war, her "fake" concern for the common proles. I haven't seen a whole lot of people saying "I love Sera's commitment to social justice and racial equity and I love her skeptical view of religion in light of revelations about the reality of the Fade but I still don't like her because...." I think Sera really infuriates a large portion of the political spectrum, the more conservative and/or more religious, the laissez faire rightie-libertarians, Randians, etc. It doesn't really matter what she does in-game when her fundamental principles are going to gore thier ox every time she opens her mouth.

Thing is, Sera is pretty non-political and she doesn't even seem to care about class much, just people that abuse power.  Seems to infuriate the whole political spectrum, partly because she isn't a champion of class politics or racial equity.  I've seen a lot of people complaining about her lack of sympathy for the elves, or that she really isn't doing any good for people.  Even as she acknowledges class, she only takes issue with individuals.  She doesn't seem to acknowledge the existence of race at all, let alone shown commitment to racial equity.  I think people would be more comfortable with her if she really was a revolutionary or wanted to change the system, but she isn't.  She explains to Solas that she doesn't see the point, she just punishes individuals that abuse and tries to make the "little people"'s lives a bit more bearable.

 

She's just... Sera

[Nathair Nimheil]

Thing is, Sera is pretty non-political

Party politics maybe but "politics" means "relating to citizens", it is concerned with the distribution of power in society. Sera is all about that. More significantly though, the things she says are reminiscent of a very recognizable "type" in current political discourse and I think it is that resemblance (whether or not it's valid in the details) that lights some people's fuse.

[WildOrchid]

and won't quit hounding me about how my immortal soul is in jeopardy, it's much easier, for me, to send them packing.

 

That reminds me of Sera's situation. She's saving herself from a relationship like this you describe. You say, the inquisitor won't do anything of the sort to her but the problem is, she doesn't know and she's scared enough to figure it out. She's scared that inquisitor's beliefs and hers will clash and ruin it all, hence why she ends things early to save the seat for someone more fit for the dalish inquisitor.

 

 

Pretty logical move, i'd say.

[robertthebard]

That reminds me of Sera's situation. She's saving herself from a relationship like this you describe. You say, the inquisitor won't do anything of the sort to her but the problem is, she doesn't know and she's scared enough to figure it out. She's scared that inquisitor's beliefs and hers will clash and ruin it all, hence why she ends things early to save the seat for someone more fit for the dalish inquisitor.
 
 
Pretty logical move, i'd say.

At the very least, it removes the potential for conflict. So yeah, it's a better move than trying to stick it out and still maintain what you believe in w/out having to feel like you're compromising yourself.

[Hazegurl]

After she asked me what I thought about it yes. She brings it up.

 

Um...no. There's a difference in simply disapproving and the whole "we're not friends anymore" bit. One can disagree with friends about certain issues while still remaining friends. Particularly something that doesn't effect me personally. Again I already said I was fine with her dumping the PC over it. It's the "we're not friends." anymore that just makes me smh. If you're willing to dump a friend over something that minor...you really weren't friends at all.

 

Now you're saying I expect the companions to kowtow to my whims? Really? I feel Dorian's views on slavery were atrocious, we discussed it, disagreed and the conversation ended. He was still my Inquisitor's friend even if they disagreed.

That's because Dorian is open to other views, he possesses self perception, integrity, and a willingness to at least look at the big picture.  Sera is still in a selfish childish stage in her life...which I'm inclined to believe will last forever.   I find it odd that I didn't get the "I'll dump you as a friend" dialogue on my first play through. I remember just telling her I believed, she resisted, I continued to explain why, and she just looked like a kicked puppy. lol! I was human and was pretty much just used to just scolding her at that point so I could have just overlooked the whole exchange. lol!

[Ryzaki]

That's because Dorian is open to other views, he possesses self perception, integrity, and a willingness to at least look at the big picture.  Sera is still in a selfish childish stage in her life...which I'm inclined to believe will last forever.   I find it odd that I didn't get the "I'll dump you as a friend" dialogue on my first play through. I remember just telling her I believed, she resisted, I continued to explain why, and she just looked like a kicked puppy. lol! I was human and was pretty much just used to just scolding her at that point so I could have just overlooked the whole exchange. lol!

 

Oh man now I'm tempted to make a human noble Celenish figure to romance her with for lulz factor. Half to see if I could get it to work and other half to laugh my ass off if it does.

 

Curse you for putting that in my head.

[Heimdall]

Party politics maybe but "politics" means "relating to citizens", it is concerned with the distribution of power in society. Sera is all about that. More significantly though, the things she says are reminiscent of a very recognizable "type" in current political discourse and I think it is that resemblance (whether or not it's valid in the details) that lights some people's fuse.

I really don't think she is concerned with power distribution in society, or if she is she doesn't see the way things are as a fundamental problem needing fixing.  That's set off more than a few people in this thread.  Quite a few people complaining that she doesn't fit that particular "type".

 

Point is I feel your comment that she rankles mostly the conservative side of the spectrum flies in the face of lots of the complaints I've seen on this thread that seem to focus around the notion that she isn't the charming champion of the oppressed underclass they were looking for.

[LobselVith8]

I really don't think she is concerned with power distribution in society, or if she is she doesn't see the way things are as a fundamental problem needing fixing. That's set off more than a few people in this thread. Quite a few people complaining that she doesn't fit that particular "type".

Point is I feel your comment that she rankles mostly the conservative side of the spectrum flies in the face of lots of the complaints I've seen on this thread that seem to focus around the notion that she isn't the charming champion of the oppressed underclass they were looking for.

Only if you ignore what they actually said in regards to their complaints.

[Nathair Nimheil]

Dorian is open to other views, he possesses self perception, integrity, and a willingness to at least look at the big picture.

Integrity is an interesting word to plonk down in the middle of that list. "Having and adhering to strong moral principles." Except when Sera does exactly that, sticks to her principles, it's cast as refusing to consider other views.

She does consider other views. She does look at the big picture. She talks about it in some detail. She just rejects some of those other views and arrives at a different conclusion about the big picture. Simply put, after consideration she still disagrees. That's allowed.
 

Sera is still in a selfish childish stage in her life...which I'm inclined to believe will last forever.

Sera, who's prime character motivator is individual justice for all people is, at the same time, permanently selfish and childish? That is a fascinating interpretation.

[Heimdall]

Only if you ignore what they actually said in regards to their complaints.

Do elaborate, or point to where I said that this was the primary reason people had a problem with her.

 

I'll give you a hint: I didn't

[Nathair Nimheil]

I really don't think she is concerned with power distribution in society, or if she is she doesn't see the way things are as a fundamental problem needing fixing.

The entire purpose of Red Jenny is to change the distribution of power.
 

Point is I feel your comment that she rankles mostly the conservative side of the spectrum flies in the face of lots of the complaints I've seen on this thread that seem to focus around the notion that she isn't the charming champion of the oppressed underclass they were looking for.

I didn't actually say that but I don't think the comments refute the actual point I was making. I don't think it follows at all that the people complaining about her being hypocritical or false in her concern for the proles do so because they wish she were genuine about it. Its not uncommon at all in real life to hear those accusations made about Sera-esque people. Look at Russell Brand supporting the New Era tenants and how quickly those fundamentally opposed to his public position whipped out the hypocrisy card. It's a very common form of ad hominem and projection. If I say "we should increase taxes to better support social programs" it is not the supporters if this type of policy that come out of the woodwork to call me a hypocrite for not voluntarily paying more taxes than I owe, it is the opponents of the stated position. I imagine it's about half ad-hom ("don't listen to her she's a hypocrite") and half "I just can't imagine myself believing that so she must just be posturing for personal gain, like I would."

[Hazegurl]

Integrity is an interesting word to plonk down in the middle of that list. "Having and adhering to strong moral principles." Except when Sera does exactly that, sticks to her principles, it's cast as refusing to consider other views.

She does consider other views. She does look at the big picture. She talks about it in some detail. She just rejects some of those other views and arrives at a different conclusion about the big picture. Simply put, after consideration she still disagrees. That's allowed.
 
Sera, who's prime character motivator is individual justice for all people is, at the same time, permanently selfish and childish? That is a fascinating interpretation.

Because Dorian possesses principles without being such a tool. He loves his country and will defend it no matter what a disagreeing Inquisitor thinks. However, he is open to understanding when he is wrong about something. It's not the end of the world for him, nor does he believe he's losing himself because of it. He sees it as an opportunity to better himself and his people back home. If Dorian had stood in the Mythal Temple and told Abelas that he was wrong because he couldn't let go of the belief that the mighty Tevinter crushed the Ancient Elves, I would have lost respect for him as well, I would have seen him as burying his head in the sand as well. 

 

Sera is not a fighter for justice, she is scared little girl who was mentally abused and is just taking her frustrations out on others.  She's lashing out at the world, not trying to change it.

 

Oh man now I'm tempted to make a human noble Celenish figure to romance her with for lulz factor. Half to see if I could get it to work and other half to laugh my ass off if it does.

 

Curse you for putting that in my head.

 

 I'm starting to think you could do it. I have no idea if the same dump option comes up for anyone besides elves and so far I've only played human nobles. I just remember her begging me not to believe because I'm a human and shouldn't be elfy. lol!

[OriginalTibs]

There is limited utility to arguments in which progressives assume they have a grasp of conservative motivations and reasoning, or in which conservatives assume they have a grasp of progressive motivations and reasoning. To me it appears distinctly clear that both misunderstand the other at the foundational elements or principles. The worst of it is that both assert motivations for the other like straw-filled archery targets. Both miss the other's point.

 

If nobody has time to clarify shared meanings, then neither one will have so lengthy a life that either will complete this thread.

[Kinsz]

Sera throws a hissy fit at the Inquisitor for believing in Mythal because in her eyes the latter Is the " Herald of Andraste" and the herald himself having doubts scares her in a " well if even he doesnt believe then perhaps the Maker doesnt exist after all " manner ,  had it been anyone else she wouldnt have acted that way.

 

She didnt tell me our friendship was over though , i told her off then we proceeded to go sit on the roof and have a good time.

[Heimdall]

The entire purpose of Red Jenny is to change the distribution of power.

I thought you understood this, but it isn't. Its not about changing things, its about helping people. They try to make people's lives easier and safer. Sometimes that means hurting nobles. Sometimes that means fighting street gangs. But they emphatically are not a revolutionary organization. They aren't out to change the existing system. They just answer requests, unless you mean "change" of a non-systemic scope.
 

I didn't actually say that but I don't think the comments refute the actual point I was making. I don't think it follows at all that the people complaining about her being hypocritical or false in her concern for the proles do so because they wish she were genuine about it. Its not uncommon at all in real life to hear those accusations made about Sera-esque people. Look at Russell Brand supporting the New Era tenants and how quickly those fundamentally opposed to his public position whipped out the hypocrisy card. It's a very common form of ad hominem and projection. If I say "we should increase taxes to better support social programs" it is not the supporters if this type of policy that come out of the woodwork to call me a hypocrite for not voluntarily paying more taxes than I owe, it is the opponents of the stated position. I imagine it's about half ad-hom ("don't listen to her she's a hypocrite") and half "I just can't imagine myself believing that so she must just be posturing for personal gain, like I would."

And I don't think it at all follows that those people are objecting must be doing so because they oppose the position. It is certainly not uncommon for people that genuinely support a position to call someone out if they think another supposed supporter is a hypocrite damaging the cause or simply failing to uphold it. I won't pretend that the opposed don't tend to be more critical and those in favor don't tend to turn a blind eye, (That's just human nature) but it seems rather self serving to assume that most of the people crying hypocrite are just opposed to the position.

I've seen complaints from people that talk about how much they were looking forward to Sera as a city elf standing up to Nobles, and came back complaining that she's a racist opportunist. Am I supposed to look at that and assume that they're lying?