2858 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

 I'm starting to think you could do it. I have no idea if the same dump option comes up for anyone besides elves and so far I've only played human nobles. I just remember her begging me not to believe because I'm a human and shouldn't be elfy. lol!

 

Eh my Celene would smile and nod at her anyway. If she doesn't dump you for recruiting the noble this could work wonderfully.

 

Edit: That said I'm not sure which decisions I should make. Obviously I'm gonna favor Leliana at the war table, maybe use Cullen when all else seems to fail, I know I should side with the templars but I'm not sure if I should conscript or recruit...

[Fiery Phoenix]

Thread title: "Why do a lot of people hate Sera?"

OP name: Confused Potato

 

[Nathair Nimheil]

However, he is open to understanding when he is wrong about something. It's not the end of the world for him, nor does he believe he's losing himself because of it.

Which brings us right back to the crux. You still think Sera is wrong. She still thinks you are wrong. Your phrase "open to understanding" makes this quite clear. You want Sera to "understand" that you are right, end of story.
 

Sera is not a fighter for justice, she is scared little girl who was mentally abused and is just taking her frustrations out on others.  She's lashing out at the world, not trying to change it.

That's tripe. Demonstrably untrue. We know Sera's feelings on these issues. We know that she genuinely does care about justice for the downtrodden common folk. We know that she is considerate of the feelings of other people in her actions (even if her standards in this regard don't exactly match yours.) These are things we, the player, are explicitly told about Sera, the character. They cannot be wished away to fit your own preferred narrative.
 

I just remember her begging me not to believe because I'm a human and shouldn't be elfy.

Sera is pretty clear that by "elfy" she means "to embrace Dalism". It's not racial, anyone can be "elfy".

[Nathair Nimheil]

Its not about changing things<...>They try to make people's lives easier and safer.
[Edited for juxtaposition. ]

How is making the lives of the proles easier and safer not changing things?

Before the Red Jennys the proles had almost no power. The Red Jennys empower and protect the proles. That changes the balance of power. It is not required that they attempt to completely dismantle the entire social structure for them to be about political change.
 

And I don't think it at all follows that those people are objecting must be doing so because they oppose the position.

And I am STILL not saying that. Stop reading "all" or "everyone" into what I am saying. There is a reason I am not using those words.
 

It is certainly not uncommon for people that genuinely support a position to call someone out

Sure. I haven't seen much of that though. Have you?
 

I've seen complaints from people that talk about how much they were looking forward to Sera as a city elf standing up to Nobles, and came back complaining that she's a racist opportunist. Am I supposed to look at that and assume that they're lying?

I've never even suggested that.

[Karai9]

Sera, who's prime character motivator is individual justice for all people is, at the same time, permanently selfish and childish? That is a fascinating interpretation.

I honestly don't think that is a too far of a stretch to perceive Sera as selfish. I've already spoken on how I feel about Sera's childishness, so I won't get into that again, but I feel the two traits are definitely linked in her case. I do admire Sera's claim of fighting for 'individual justice for all people' but I feel that she does so in a rather selfish way. Sera isn't looking for world change, she's just punching down the guys who abuse their power, which is admirable, but it costs her nothing to do so. She doesn't have to work hard to find out who's abusing their power, she doesn't have to worry about the aftermath of her actions. She gets the easy part, or as she sees it, the fun part. All she has to do is fill the offending party full of arrows, which makes her incredibly happy in her own personal desires, and it seems that it's a bonus that it helped someone out. 

[Heimdall]

How is making the lives of the proles easier and safer not changing things?

Before the Red Jennys the proles had almost no power. The Red Jennys empower and protect the proles. That changes the balance of power. It is not required that they attempt to completely dismantle the entire social structure for them to be about political change.

Not what most people think when they consider "change" in these discussions, but sure.  Plenty of posters on here seem to disagree, given the frequency of complaints that Sera and the Red Jenny aren't implementing "real" long lasting change.
 

And I am STILL not saying that. Stop reading "all" or "everyone" into what I am saying. There is a reason I am not using those words.

You claimed that Sera inflamed people on the conservative end of the spectrum. I brought up the objection that a great many complaints don't fit that idea. You countered that it is common for those critical of a position to be more vigorous in claiming hypocrisy against it. Your point only holds water as a counter to mine if at least most of the posters in question are as you say.
 

I've never even suggested that.

You are saying that the people making such posts are motivated by an opposition to the position, rather than genuinely being disappointed that Sera isn't a pro-elf revolutionary. If that's not what you were trying to say, sorry, but that is what you've been suggesting.
 

Sure. I haven't seen much of that though. Have you?

Yes

Though since I don't think we could ever resolve this point unless we did a one by one count of all complaints in the past 64 pages and debated the implications of each one, I'm thinking we should just stop this discussion here.

[robertthebard]

That would be confusing, and I don't have enough popcorn...

[hairlessOrphan]

Though since I don't think we could ever resolve this point unless we did a one by one count of all complaints in the past 64 pages and debated the implications of each one, I'm thinking we should just stop this discussion here.

 

And not even then. People are now emotionally invested in how other people see Sera. We have therefore entered the foggy and treacherous realms of motivated reasoning.

[Nathair Nimheil]

Sera isn't looking for world change, she's just punching down the guys who abuse their power, which is admirable, but it costs her nothing to do so.

She, with no metaphor involved, risks her life for this stuff but you still say it costs her nothing. So unless she actually dies for the little guy she's being selfish? That's setting the bar pretty high. What should it cost her, other than her time, energy, commitment and, perhaps, life? Sera doesn't appear to have anything in the material sense. "Sera was never quite the wealthiest girl - Some say she lives in a tavern."
 

she doesn't have to worry about the aftermath of her actions.

No, she doesn't have to but she does anyway. This is one of the things we know about Sera.
 

All she has to do is fill the offending party full of arrows, which makes her incredibly happy in her own personal desires, and it seems that it's a bonus that it helped someone out.

Let me get this straight... you are saying that what Sera really likes is shooting people with arrows and that if someone is helped that's a happy little bonus? You realize that that directly contradicts what we, the players, are told about Sera, right? We know exactly what she approves of, we know exactly what she doesn't approve of. We know, as well, that she is not some sort of sociopath filling people full of arrows more or less at random just because it gives her a giggle.

[WildOrchid]

And not even then. People are now emotionally invested in how other people see Sera. We have therefore entered the foggy and treacherous realms of motivated reasoning.

 

This always happens in hate/love character threads.

[hairlessOrphan]

This always happens in hate/love character threads.

 

It doesn't have to. I think that's why I tried. You know, I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. One day, we'll all grow up and be better.

[KaiserShep]

And not even then. People are now emotionally invested in how other people see Sera. We have therefore entered the foggy and treacherous realms of motivated reasoning.

Hah! The romance threads of old were a mosh pit for your keyboard.

[LobselVith8]

Sera is pretty clear that by "elfy" she means "to embrace Dalism". It's not racial, anyone can be "elfy".

I never thought that, since she disapproves of other elven options that aren't related to being Dalish or following the elven gods. Like using the elven option when becoming Inquisitor, even though she has no problem with the other racial options. Or her negative view of Briala, or assuming her efforts to help the Orlesian elves are simply a means of getting back at Celene.

Roamingmachine often does an admirable job at addressing how complicated she can be.

[robertthebard]

I never thought that, since she disapproves of other elven options that aren't related to being Dalish or following the elven gods. Like using the elven option when becoming Inquisitor, even though she has no problem with the other racial options. Or her negative view of Briala, or assuming her efforts to help the Orlesian elves are simply a means of getting back at Celene.

Let's look at that: Why would you even bring up the elven option in that speech if you're not going to be "elfy"? My Dalish assassin said he was going to lead as one of the people, and Sera approved. It's that whole deal about making a big deal out of being an elf that drives her batshit crazier...

[Nathair Nimheil]

You claimed that Sera inflamed people on the conservative end of the spectrum. I brought up the objection that a great many complaints don't fit that idea.

That is not actually an objection. In much the same way if I say lots of fires are caused by faulty wiring your responding that many fires are caused by unsafe cooking is not "an objection".
 

You countered that it is common for those critical of a position to be more vigorous in claiming hypocrisy against it. Your point only holds water as a counter to mine if at least most of the posters in question are as you say.

I don't need to hold water against anything you said or prove majority. I said I think Sera enrages many people like this because of that. I did not say Sera enrages all people like this. I did not say Sera only enrages people like this. I did not say people are only enraged about Sera because of that. Any assertions of most, all, only, majority, exclusively, unanimity or anything like that at all is entirely your own.
 

You are saying that the people making such posts are motivated by an opposition to the position, rather than genuinely being disappointed that Sera isn't a pro-elf revolutionary. If that's not what you were trying to say, sorry, but that is what you've been suggesting.

No, it isn't. What I am saying (and suggesting) is not that people making such posts are motivated by an opposition to the position but that people motivated by an opposition to the position are making such posts.

[Ryzaki]

Hah! The romance threads of old were a mosh pit for your keyboard.

 

Oh man don't get me started on the which version of the romance was better debates.

 

So many wars and freaking thread splitting over that.

[KaiserShep]

Oh man don't get me started on the which version of the romance was better debates.
 
So many wars and freaking thread splitting over that.

You fought in the romance wars?

[Heimdall]

I never thought that, since she disapproves of other elven options that aren't related to being Dalish or following the elven gods. Like using the elven option when becoming Inquisitor, even though she has no problem with the other racial options. Or her negative view of Briala, or assuming her efforts to help the Orlesian elves are simply a means of getting back at Celene.

Roamingmachine often does an admirable job at addressing how complicated she can be.

Sera doesn't approve of racial groupings. She doesn't think they override everything else, certainly. To her, Briala is a noble that's no doubt used others as pawns and played the Game like the rest. It would only makes her angrier now that she's runner by around essentially saying "We're all the same! Ignore the silks, look at my ears!"

[Ryzaki]

You fought in the romance wars?

 

Some of them.

 

I watched with snacks in some of the others XD

[LobselVith8]

Let's look at that: Why would you even bring up the elven option in that speech if you're not going to be "elfy"? My Dalish assassin said he was going to lead as one of the people, and Sera approved. It's that whole deal about making a big deal out of being an elf that drives her batshit crazier...

Yet she doesn't take issue with the non-elf racial equivalent dialogue options (for the other racial backgrounds) to becoming the Inquisitor.

[Heimdall]

*Snip*

I told you, I'm ending the discussion. Much as I'd like to poke at the knots you're tying yourself in, it's better for both of us and I honestly don't have the time to argue much at the moment.

[robertthebard]

Yet she doesn't take issue with the non-elf racial equivalent dialogue options (for the other racial backgrounds) to becoming the Inquisitor.

Because they're not elfy. That's her trigger. She doesn't care if you're a noble, or a beggar, so long as you're not elfy about it. If you talk to her about Solas, she'll comment along the lines of "He's got his up 1,000 years ago, we'll never be what we were." She'll ask "Who's we? I'm just fine". That's her angle on the whole thing.

[Nathair Nimheil]

I never thought that, since she disapproves of other elven options that aren't related to being Dalish or following the elven gods. Like using the elven option when becoming Inquisitor, even though she has no problem with the other racial options.

Dalism is fundamentally elven exceptionalism, even supremacism. I think that Sera's disapproval when a Dalish Inquisitor says "an elf will stand for us all" is because that is how she interprets it.
 

Or her negative view of Briala, or assuming her efforts to help the Orlesian elves are simply a means of getting back at Celene.

Sera has other irons in the fire too, her negative view of Briala is about Briala's being one of those nobles, not about elves.

[Nathair Nimheil]

I told you, I'm ending the discussion. Much as I'd like to poke at the knots you're tying yourself in, it's better for both of us and I honestly don't have the time to argue much at the moment.

OK. And say, thanks for taking the time for one last parting cheap-shot before you flounce.

[hairlessOrphan]

OK. And say, thanks for taking the time for one last parting cheap-shot before you flounce.

 

Relax. It's ok to laugh at yourself.