2858 réponses à ce sujet

[Scerene]

How many copies of the DA books were in Sera's room? I don't recall seeing any, but apparently you did? She has the same information going into WE/WH as I did, having not read the books, and frankly, you have to put Briala in power to get the results you're talking about here. I never did, and never saw this, and never read the books, so what I know of Briala is what's presented in game, which is why she hasn't gotten into a position of power in my games. I see the same things Sera does, and I'm not impressed, especially as a Dalish.

You can metagame it if you like, but metagaming isn't a requirement. In order for me to come to the same conclusions you do about Briala, I have to carry knowledge into the game that my Inquisitors aren't privy to. I don't, because I'm not privy to the knowledge either, I haven't read the books. I also don't disregard how she's trying to keep the War running prior to WE/WH, by attacking both sides, thus costing human lives as well as elves. I get that Briala is some kind of Folk Hero to you, but to me, she's just another Noble playing the Game. I will, eventually, have to put her in some kind of power, I think there's an achievement that will be hard to get if I don't go all out into the Game in WE/WH. So far, however, the two Inquisitors that got that far weren't interested in having her in power.

All of which is off topic for this thread, however. Sera's view of Briala is painted based on my view, since neither one of us have read the books.

Briala is the only one who actually pushes the elves rights forward.  Seras fans use the exact same circular arguments and rationalizations Sera herself uses, classic. Any facts that fly against the things you believe are rationalised away. First they are denied, until they are proven, afterwards they are picked apart as to not even be important enough to be facts  At the end of the day, you can say whatever you like, Briala still makes those strides, very huge strides in terms of rights for other people, unlike Sera. Briala shows a lot of sincerity and gratefullness when you talk to her after you give her power,. Sera makes no accomplishments, what-so-ever- for anybody, aside from putting people down and pulling pranks.

[Scerene]

Ermm..I said those things about Sera, not Briala....  Either way, nothing you said contradicts my point, or even addresses it, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

you said that viv, iron bull, etc etc were all completely self-serving and completely horrible, im just trying to give a more nuanced picture.  showed you some examples. where they arent. With that said, i dont like them, but they are far more mature, and iron bull is much kinder than Sera. I dont like him but he looks out for people he cares about first and foremost, and even sacrificed his eye to save Krem.

[robertthebard]

Briala is the only one who actually pushes the elves rights forward.  Seras fans use the exact same circular arguments and rationalizations Sera herself uses, classic. Any facts that fly against the things you believe are rationalised away. First they are denied, until they are proven, afterwards they are picked apart as to not even be important enough to be facts  At the end of the day, you can say whatever you like, Briala still makes those strides, very huge strides in terms of rights for other people, unlike Sera. Briala shows a lot of sincerity and gratefullness when you talk to her after you give her power,. Sera makes no accomplishments, what-so-ever- for anybody, aside from putting people down and pulling pranks.

I'm sorry, but what? First you claim that Sera directly harms the people she works with, or causes their harm, but then ignore evidence that states otherwise. Then you want to come at me with this? Really? This is classic BSN, I'm not sure why I'm surprised. So far, your whole argument is based on "because I said so". Can you pull any information from the actual game to support anything you've said? I know I have, I've had to bookmark that one particular video, since people very much like you insist that the perception everyone else has about Red Jenny is wrong, because "Sera very definitely gets her people killed", despite evidence to the contrary. So provide some cutscenes to refute what I've presented, if you can find any, I'd be interested in watching them, instead of trying to deflect the argument into personal attacks and hyperbole.

[rubynorman]

I've never said Briala doesn't care about the Elf. Get your fact straight. What is this "you people"? Have you gone the the Dales, where towns got destroyed , people being burned to black charcoal because of the civil war? Do I need to link the video where the Inquisitior found the 2 dead ambassadors of Celene and the Grand Duke that she killed so that the war would continue ?

Lemme just re-open my TME copy and show you some lines.

 

 

Val Royeaux would be possible. Briala felt the pull of the magic through her, felt it twist to match her intention. But Val Royeaux would also put Celene in a position to end this war quickly and easily.

....

“It will be a hard winter,” Mihris said from behind her, shivering. “If neither Gaspard nor Celene finishes this quickly, many people will die.”

“Wars often have that effect,” said Felassan as he came out into the light, squinting.

...

“Which army are you going to hamstring?”

Briala looked over at Felassan, smiling, even as she started to shiver from the winter’s chill. “Whichever one seems to be winning. What was it? Anaris and Andruil?”

 

Felassan smiled. “You prolong their fight, and in the chaos, your people work free from their bonds?”

“It can work, I think.” Briala held her arms around her.

I guess you're ignoring my post because I backed my argument with facts and evidences.

[robertthebard]

I guess you're ignoring my post because I backed my argument with facts and evidences.

Get used to it, the main requirement for a "valid" argument seems to be "because I said so, and I know better than you".

[Scerene]

That would be the logical conclusion, however...

yep i meant the inquistion, and sweetie so far there hasnt been any logical or intelligent reasons from you, just a whole bunch of rationalizations  and excuses. Im willing to admit that the people i like arent perfect. I wasnt happy about her relationship with Celene, i didnt like that she kept the war going, even though i understand why, there are many things i dont like, but there is no denying she is a passionate woman who is helping "little people" far more than Sera.  She is hardly  hero to me,  The people that are sacrificed in these wars, are chevalier who go to alienages and rape and kill elves as part of their final test. Im sure the thought of losing the lives of chevaliers is keeping her up at night. At the end of the day, she is using this to do what she can for her people. None of these humans could care less about elves being killed, in fact they do that in the alienages all the time, literally as part of the chevaliers final test, its to go to an alienage and murder as many elves as you can. You can basically kill an elf and get away with it scot free.

[Scerene]

I'm sorry, but what? First you claim that Sera directly harms the people she works with, or causes their harm, but then ignore evidence that states otherwise. Then you want to come at me with this? Really? This is classic BSN, I'm not sure why I'm surprised. So far, your whole argument is based on "because I said so". Can you pull any information from the actual game to support anything you've said? I know I have, I've had to bookmark that one particular video, since people very much like you insist that the perception everyone else has about Red Jenny is wrong, because "Sera very definitely gets her people killed", despite evidence to the contrary. So provide some cutscenes to refute what I've presented, if you can find any, I'd be interested in watching them, instead of trying to deflect the argument into personal attacks and hyperbole.

 youre right, she doesnt get her friends killed. Its been a long time since ive seen that scene, since i have no interest in talking to her anymore. i meant she is belligerent and abusive to her companions, in that she calls people stupid all the time, and is inconsiderate  etc etc Not that she physically abuses people.

[KaiserShep]

The only one that she seems to freak out with in banter is Cole over his mind reading. Her opinions of the companions in general tend to be positive, save Cole and Vivienne, and she does say that Vivienne is a b***h, but I don't think that she's actually wrong about that XD

[rubynorman]

It's not just the chevaliers. As we can see in game, towns and normal people and even some dalish elves died because of the war. You can find a bloody teddy bear with 3 dead bodies in the Dales, lots of dead civilians and destroyed towns. The freaking war also has an effect on other regions since the deserters have gone wild and they kill/rob refugees. Meanwhile, the nobles are safe and sound in their home.

 

So yeah, I think I have proven my point.

 

 

Briala only cares about the elf. She will do whatever and she already did get a lot of people (human) killed by fueling the civil war. Sera sees people as people whatever they are elf or human. Of course Sera doesn't agree with Briala's way.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

youre right, she doesnt get her friends killed. Its been a long time since ive seen that scene, since i have no interest in talking to her anymore. i meant she is belligerent and abusive to her companions, in that she calls people stupid all the time, and is inconsiderate  etc etc Not that she physically abuses people.

Sera doesn't really get her friends killed, her RJ friend led her into a ambush that resulted in his death after she tried to help things with the march, is Briala who deliberately tries to get fellow elves killed if they know too much about her past. & i don't know where your getting the "Sera abuses the inquisition members" thing

[Scerene]

It's not just the chevaliers. As we can see in game, towns and normal people and even some dalish elves died because of the war. You can find a bloody teddy bear with 3 dead bodies in the Dales, lots of dead civilians and destroyed towns. The freaking war also has an effect on other regions since the deserters have gone wild and they kill/rob refugees. Meanwhile, the nobles are safe and sound in their home.

 

So yeah, I think I have proven my point.

She has to force change, atleast she cares, and is improving the lives of the little people, even though her methods arent perfect. Elves are murdered in Orlais daily by humans and soldiers, and even applauded for it, you dont seem overly concerned about that. Hell when you consider the amount of elves that have been murdered for fun, it could easily rival that of the current civil war. Elves in ferelden seem to be treated a bit better than in Orlais though, atleast its not how armies do their final initiation test. Im showing you she isnt out for herself, not that her methods are perfect. Sera herself was raised by a noblewoman in ferelden and was protected from most of the plight, perhaps thats why she lacks empathy.  

[Scerene]

Sera doesn't really get her friends killed, her RJ friend led her into a ambush that resulted in his death after she tried to help things with the march, is Briala who deliberately tries to get fellow elves killed if they know too much about her past. & i don't know where your getting the "Sera abuses the inquisition members" thing

i already said i was wrong... she doesnt get her friends killed. I also said that she is verbally, not physically, abusive to the inquistions members. Yea she did a shitty thing though it doesnt make any sense, it felt very tacked on so BW could make everyone look rotten   i dont understand why she would hide it because her relationship with Celene is known amongst many elves already, and if she wanted to kill her she could have sent her to the servants area.

[KaiserShep]

The only one that could remotely qualify is Cole, with her use of "it" rather than "him". There's the pranks, but she doesn't seem to do them unless the Inquisitor agrees.

[WildOrchid]

 youre right, she doesnt get her friends killed. Its been a long time since ive seen that scene, since i have no interest in talking to her anymore. i meant she is belligerent and abusive to her companions, in that she calls people stupid all the time, and is inconsiderate  etc etc Not that she physically abuses people.

 

Calling someone stupid = / = abuse. She's nowhere near abusive to her companions. In fact, half the companions love her with the exceptions of Viv and Solas (the latter has said he's envious of her more than hate her).

 

Besides, Sera also calls the cookies she makes stupid and calls herself stupid. So, does she abuse the cookies and herself too?

 

 

Of course, you'd know that by talking to her or getting her with you in missions, but you just admitted you don't talk to her anymore so... please, don't make up "facts" just to paint her as you like.

[KaiserShep]

I think Cassandra mostly tolerates her.

[WildOrchid]

The only one that could remotely qualify is Cole, with her use of "it" rather than "him". There's the pranks, but she doesn't seem to do them unless the Inquisitor agrees.

 

Actually she calls him "he", later on. If Cole is a human, that is.

 

 

 

As for Cass, she actually likes her. Laughs with her jokes. She's all mother hen to her.

[Linkenski]

I believe that people who dislike Sera are just intolerant or narrow-minded. I like that she sort of makes fun of everything having to make sense. Maybe you can see that as the writer not giving a damn and just writing whatever, but I thought it made her a fun character and I think there's something truly relieving about her nonchalanty towards having "proper conversations"

[KaiserShep]

I believe that people who dislike Sera are just intolerant or narrow-minded.

I wouldn't go that far. She's obviously made to be a polarizing character and is very in-your-face and easily seen as obnoxious.

[Maniccc]

you said that viv, iron bull, etc etc were all completely self-serving and completely horrible, im just trying to give a more nuanced picture.  showed you some examples. where they arent. With that said, i dont like them, but they are far more mature, and iron bull is much kinder than Sera. I dont like him but he looks out for people he cares about first and foremost, and even sacrificed his eye to save Krem.

No...you need to re-reread.  I said Sera was certain specific things, and then the rest were generally bad people, etc.  You are confusing two separate clauses and conflating them, but whatever.  Nothing you said was relevant to my point, anyway.

[WildOrchid]

I believe that people who dislike Sera are just intolerant or narrow-minded. I like that she sort of makes fun of everything having to make sense. Maybe you can see that as the writer not giving a damn and just writing whatever, but I thought it made her a fun character and I think there's something truly relieving about her nonchalanty towards having "proper conversations"

 

Eh, i'd suggest you not offend people. People are free to dislike/like a character.

 

Just like the Sera haters shouldn't offend the Sera fans and vice versa.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Yes, I am intolerant of stupidity and irresponsibility. Sere is flat out stupid, not because of mental retardation or some other valid disability that might cause it and, not because she is ignorant through lack of education, she is stupid by choice and, that I cannot tolerate.

 

Disability is not your fault, and thus acceptable and at least tolerable even if difficult to deal with. Lack of education, can be corrected, if you are willing to learn. Sera is not disabled and, choose not to learn even when she has the opportunity as a part of the Inquisition. That is intolerable for me.

 

Were she to say "I don't understand why you sided with that noble, so, please explain your reasoning to n=me and, I will listen and think about it before I get mad." That would have been acceptable. Even if after learning she said "I understand now but, I don't agree and, I am upset by your actions." Okay, you disagree with me and are upset by what I chose to do but, now you know why, not just because "stupid, beats down."

 

Same as I do not tolerate my grandchildren not listening in my home. I tell them once, what the rules are, such as "Ask before getting things out of the refrigerator." Fist time they fail, they are corrected verbally, made to put the item back and, reminded to ask first. Second time, item is taken from them and they are banned form the kitchen, third time, banned form the house until they can apologize.

 

With Sera first time she is told it's not that simple, second time, don't question me, third time get out of here. Since she is incapable of coming back and apologizing, she is not allowed to be a part of my game any longer. had she come to apologize in the playthrough I booted her in, I would still recruit her, knowing she was capable of learning but, she chooses not to learn. Yeah programmed that way, and that's fine, many people can tolerate or even accept or like that. I don't and, it's my game so, I don't have to have her in it.

[adam_nox]

What he said.

 

Stupid by choice.  It should say that under her name.

 

She's also childish.  Really technically speaking, she's a narcissist.  Worse than vivienne, who's merely suffers delusions of grandeur regarding her own place in the world.  God, I really wish we could knock both of these ladies down a peg, because it's just ridiculous. 

[vometia]

I think Cassandra mostly tolerates her.

I thought that too, initially, but the two actually seem to get along quite well.

[KaiserShep]

What he said.

 

Stupid by choice.  It should say that under her name.

 

She's also childish.  Really technically speaking, she's a narcissist.  Worse than vivienne, who's merely suffers delusions of grandeur regarding her own place in the world.  God, I really wish we could knock both of these ladies down a peg, because it's just ridiculous. 

You kind of can knock Sera down a peg. You can basically go all mean mug and tell her to get lost with a slight hint of death threat. Vivienne is the one that's immune to being pushed around.

But as for narcissism, I don't really see it.

[rubynorman]

I'm going off topic for the last time.

@Scerene The elves are treated poorly, but getting other people ( lots of good ones) killed to try to help the Elves isn't a good way. It just brings down the Elves to their master's level and it's a selfish way to do so. Not to mention what will happen when the human figure it down? Another Exalted March ? Living in harmony or trying to settle down IMO are the right answers, just like the way Clan Lavellan did at the end of their war table quests..