2858 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightdragon8]

Remember the infamous "slap morrigan" mod? I don't think stupid people desserves to be slapped but i will microwave babies just to get the "slap Sera" mod if it's even possible... she is not only stupid and closed minded as Sten, she is also uncout, stubborn, selfish, racist, trends to do bad jokes and snortlaughs on them... and finally she is not barefoot (totally unrelated)

 

Good thing she doesn't keep the DA2 formula of being as depictable companion all the game... once she evolves she even takes Anders flirting with just a "I'm not interesed in your thingy thing" and his joke of being "scaaaaary" was also taken in good mood. What i don't like about her seriously was the fact she portrays herself as a rightfull ass but ends being selfish (the patrons at the Skyhold tavern, companion bartering)... To tell the truth if somebody creates a "friends of big bearded Karl and reborned Shayle who hates Red Jenny" i guess it will get more support than friends of Red Jenny

if the mod could be the 'Gibs' slap the back of the head thing I'm all for it.

[Aren]

too annoyng , inconsistent and not well written.  she talk like a mad 13 years old child

[berrieh]

There are no conversations where she's hypocritical. She has clearly stated her beliefs, and she sticks to them. Hypocritical is pulled out of the asses of people that can't seem to come to terms with "she's abrasive and annoying" for some reason, which is true. I find that to be true, and I also find it to be one of her redeeming qualities. She's not a "Yes man".

 

I don't know - it seems hypocritical to me for her to say she is of the common people and that she supports them and then basically leave them to fend for themselves or to take their money for her help once she's with the Inquisition and its inconsequential. In my view, she isn't really following an ideal at all (which is what she leads you to believe at a few points in the beginning AND is what she alludes to if you ask her to leave and she says a Jenny's place is with the people). Now you could say she doesn't claim to, but I'm not sure that's fair. She does claim she's in the right and out for the people. But later she says she's out for herself first, which is really no different than the nobles she claims to be different than. 

 

Hypocrisy isn't just about changing your beliefs (which actually doesn't have to be hypocritical at all) - it's more about your actions not representing your beliefs. In several cases, her actions don't really support the common people the way she acts like they do. Personally, I think that's less willful hypocrisy and more poor execution and shortsightedness but it certainly could be hypocrisy. She's certainly happy enough to work for a big, noble-backed-and-run (if you are a human noble especially, but even if not, it's mostly human nobles running the place) organization, and she doesn't even really care about actions that may endanger or hurt the common people as long as you support her personally. Things like that. And, again, I like Sera. I don't even find her abrasive and annoying, personally (though I can see how people might) - I more have trouble with how she reconciles her "champion of the common man" bits. She's grown on me a lot. She's clearly not a good person, but she's hardly the worst. 

 

Now, Sera has good qualities. I like how loyal and passionate she can be to her friends. I like that she's comfortable with herself. I like that she is turning her brokenness into strength. She's a compelling character to me, and a very interesting iteration of the City Elf. And I like that they don't give her some hackneyed redemption arc - they just let her be her. Sometimes you need a little anarchy, a little humor, a little doubt. She provides a worthwhile point of view, even though she's a bit thuggish for my taste and is basically a street criminal with no honor code whatsoever. The whole "fight for the common man" thing is bullshit, though, if you ask me - unless she's talking about one common woman (her name being Sera). 

[Dean_the_Young]

8. I do not get her disapproval of putting Briala in charge at ALL. I can get that she might be wary to trust Briala but at the end of the day a noble got murdered (a friggin' empress) and another noble has to bow to an elf, someone "beneath" him. That should be her JAM right there. Killed one noble, took another down several pegs. What the hell don't you like about that Sera?? Oh right I forgot, you hate elves. Of course.

 

People who don't get why Sera dislikes Briala amuse me. Doubly so when they think it's because Sera hates elves.

 

Sera dislikes Briala because Briala is a 'big person' who uses 'little people.' Briala isn't a little person simply because she's an elf, and certainly not on the level of even human cooks and servants. Briala is a user with influence, and one who plays with the lives of little people and tells them to risk and get themselves killed to further Briala's ambitions and ideology.

 

Edit: Or, to put it in other words- Briala is a noble in all but name, and possibly even that if you indulge her. Sera dislikes people who act like nobles.

 

 

That should be her JAM right there. Killed one noble, took another down several pegs. What the hell don't you like about that Sera??

 

 

The same thing she doesn't like about Bards: they take down one noble for the purpose of putting up another one. In this case, Briala herself.

 

Sera likes taking nobles down a peg, but she doesn't like the zero-sum nobility games in which nobles tear at eachother and get little people caught and killed in the middle. The incident that makes Sera go from 'distrust' to 'hate' for Briala is the elven servant who believes she was sent into a trap by Briala.

[berrieh]

People who don't get why Sera dislikes Briala amuse me. Doubly so when they think it's because Sera hates elves.

 

Sera dislikes Briala because Briala is a 'big person' who uses 'little people.' Briala isn't a little person simply because she's an elf, and certainly not on the level of even human cooks and servants. Briala is a user with influence, and one who plays with the lives of little people and tells them to risk and get themselves killed to further Briala's ambitions and ideology.

 

How is this different from what Sera does with her "friends"? She uses little people too. 

 

I guess Briala is a big person by Inquisition. It's hard for me to think of her that way; she was a little person when I met her in Masked Empire. A little person attached to a big person, but a little person nonetheless. I have no doubt Sera started as a little person, but is she really still one as Inquisition continues? Is she even one when meet her as a "Red Jenny"? How are her friends different from Briala's elves? 

[robertthebard]

I don't know - it seems hypocritical to me for her to say she is of the common people and that she supports them and then basically leave them to fend for themselves or to take their money for her help once she's with the Inquisition and its inconsequential. In my view, she isn't really following an ideal at all (which is what she leads you to believe at a few points in the beginning AND is what she alludes to if you ask her to leave and she says a Jenny's place is with the people). Now you could say she doesn't claim to, but I'm not sure that's fair. She does claim she's in the right and out for the people. But later she says she's out for herself first, which is really no different than the nobles she claims to be different than. 
 
Hypocrisy isn't just about changing your beliefs (which actually doesn't have to be hypocritical at all) - it's more about your actions not representing your beliefs. In several cases, her actions don't really support the common people the way she acts like they do. Personally, I think that's less willful hypocrisy and more poor execution and shortsightedness but it certainly could be hypocrisy. She's certainly happy enough to work for a big, noble-backed-and-run (if you are a human noble especially, but even if not, it's mostly human nobles running the place) organization, and she doesn't even really care about actions that may endanger or hurt the common people as long as you support her personally. Things like that. And, again, I like Sera. I don't even find her abrasive and annoying, personally (though I can see how people might) - I more have trouble with how she reconciles her "champion of the common man" bits. She's grown on me a lot. She's clearly not a good person, but she's hardly the worst. 
 
Now, Sera has good qualities. I like how loyal and passionate she can be to her friends. I like that she's comfortable with herself. I like that she is turning her brokenness into strength. She's a compelling character to me, and a very interesting iteration of the City Elf. And I like that they don't give her some hackneyed redemption arc - they just let her be her. Sometimes you need a little anarchy, a little humor, a little doubt. She provides a worthwhile point of view, even though she's a bit thuggish for my taste and is basically a street criminal with no honor code whatsoever. The whole "fight for the common man" thing is bullshit, though, if you ask me - unless she's talking about one common woman (her name being Sera).

In other words, you really didn't pay much attention to what's going on with her, because you found her grating, annoying and the laugh of my day, again, hypocritical. Take her with you in the caves in old Crestwood, and watch her reaction to the people drowned in the caves. Those people that have been dead for 10 years now. If people invested 1/3 of the time into reading what she says, watching her reactions to things that happen, etc, they'd see a whole different side of her that they bury by taking all the most hateful dialog against her they can, and then come here spouting how she was rude to them for being rude to her, imagine that?

It's one thing to dislike her for being her, she was written to have that, what, anti-fan base, as far as I can tell. She is abrasive, she can be rude, and she can match others being rude, such as Solas talking to her in Elvish, despite knowing how she feels about it, and that she can't speak it either. I completely understand not liking for being who she is written to be. It's all these extra bits that puzzle me, such as "she's a hypocrite", w/out any supporting evidence, other than "but hypocrite doesn't just mean what it says in the dictionary, because if it does, I have to reevaluate my position, so it has to mean all this other stuff, like being mean to me for finding out my life was a lie"(that for Dalish Solasmancers who actually have posited that exact position) She is who she is, and frankly, it's refreshing.

[KaiserShep]

How is this different from what Sera does with her "friends"? She uses little people too. 

 

I guess Briala is a big person by Inquisition. It's hard for me to think of her that way; she was a little person when I met her in Masked Empire. A little person attached to a big person, but a little person nonetheless. I have no doubt Sera started as a little person, but is she really still one as Inquisition continues? Is she even one when meet her as a "Red Jenny"? How are her friends different from Briala's elves? 

 

The only commonality is that both Briala's underlings and Sera's "friends" are always in danger in their respective roles. The difference, however, is that Sera, far as we can tell, does not lie to them and send them to their deaths. It's always going to be dangerous to sift through the lives of powerful people. When that noble caught Sera's "friends", it wasn't because Sera sent them into a trap to protect herself; it was because the noble was simply able to sniff them out. It's also worth noting that she didn't post them under these nobles. They were there already.

[robertthebard]

How is this different from what Sera does with her "friends"? She uses little people too. 
 
I guess Briala is a big person by Inquisition. It's hard for me to think of her that way; she was a little person when I met her in Masked Empire. A little person attached to a big person, but a little person nonetheless. I have no doubt Sera started as a little person, but is she really still one as Inquisition continues? Is she even one when meet her as a "Red Jenny"? How are her friends different from Briala's elves?

You really don't know how Red Jenny works, do you? First things first, did you play Origins? Did you know that Friends of Red Jenny actually have a side quest in Origins? It leads to some stuff in the mage tower, and there's something in Denerim too. At that time, Sera is somewhere around 10, so you think that's her?

Secondly, the Friends of Red Jenny isn't like Leliana's spy network. The "little people" that feed her tips and such? They are the servants that are already working for these nobles. One of her quests on the board says "so and so noble doesn't think much of the Inquisition; His servants don't care, but could. drop them some stuff, and they'll leave something for Josephine, scrolls or some such". These are people that are already there. Nobody sent them, they work for these people. All of this is explained in the first 3 minutes of meeting her, and even more, if you press back in Haven. Oh, the payment for that drop mission? Some handy evidence to use against that noble. There's no gold, no profit, other than intel that the Inquisition can use.

[berrieh]

In other words, you really didn't pay much attention to what's going on with her, because you found her grating, annoying and the laugh of my day, again, hypocritical. 

 

What? Did you actually read my post? I specifically say I don't find her grating and annoying. I also said I don't necessarily think it's hypocrisy - just see how the case can be made. 

 

Take her with you in the caves in old Crestwood, and watch her reaction to the people drowned in the caves. Those people that have been dead for 10 years now. If people invested 1/3 of the time into reading what she says, watching her reactions to things that happen, etc, they'd see a whole different side of her that they bury by taking all the most hateful dialog against her they can, and then come here spouting how she was rude to them for being rude to her, imagine that?

 

I have taken her to those caves. She is appropriately appalled. I don't doubt that Sera is appalled by some of the things the nobles do to the commoners - what I doubt is whether she is any better than they are when she uses them as well. I don't dislike Sera. I do see how you could easily read her as hypocritical for her selfish side.

 

What does rudeness have to do with it and when did I call her rude? She can be rude, certainly. So can lots of characters. Sera actually rather liked all of my characters so far, and we had nice chats - she wasn't rude to my PC really. You're making a lot of assumptions. 

 

It's one thing to dislike her for being her, she was written to have that, what, anti-fan base, as far as I can tell. She is abrasive, she can be rude, and she can match others being rude, such as Solas talking to her in Elvish, despite knowing how she feels about it, and that she can't speak it either. I completely understand not liking for being who she is written to be. It's all these extra bits that puzzle me, such as "she's a hypocrite", w/out any supporting evidence, other than "but hypocrite doesn't just mean what it says in the dictionary, because if it does, I have to reevaluate my position, so it has to mean all this other stuff, like being mean to me for finding out my life was a lie"(that for Dalish Solasmancers who actually have posited that exact position) She is who she is, and frankly, it's refreshing.

 

 

I gave you a dictionary definition with supporting evidence. You have not refuted my evidence - just talked around it, making lots of other assumptions of my view that not only are not correct but go against what I explicitly stated. 

 

Anyway, I don't really care. I don't even really think Sera is a hypocrite, but I do think she can be read that way, depending on the lenses through which you view her actions. (There is no clear answer to this.) I think she is misguided and ineffective more than hypocritical, but I see how she fits a definition of hypocritical is all. This will be my last reply to this train of thought - but I did want to say that you are wildly misrepresenting my view, missing my point, and not addressing the evidence I gave about her potential hypocrisy. 

[berrieh]

The only commonality is that both Briala's underlings and Sera's "friends" are always in danger in their respective lines of work. The difference, however, is that Sera, far as we can tell, does not lie to them and send them to their deaths. It's always going to be dangerous to sift through the lives of powerful people. When that noble caught Sera's "friends", it wasn't because Sera sent them into a trap to protect herself; it was because the noble was simply able to sniff them out.

 

Fair enough if we have cause to believe Briala is intentionally sacrificing people this way. I've never been very thorough or used spoilers yet at the Winter Palace. I didn't realize the elf was sent into the trap purposefully to get hurt - I didn't think Briala intended her harm anymore than Sera intended her friends harm. 

 

If Briala is doing this, then that's ironic as that's what she fussed at Celene for doing in ME. 

 

 

You really don't know how Red Jenny works, do you? First things first, did you play Origins? Did you know that Friends of Red Jenny actually have a side quest in Origins? It leads to some stuff in the mage tower, and there's something in Denerim too. At that time, Sera is somewhere around 10, so you think that's her?

Secondly, the Friends of Red Jenny isn't like Leliana's spy network. The "little people" that feed her tips and such? They are the servants that are already working for these nobles. One of her quests on the board says "so and so noble doesn't think much of the Inquisition; His servants don't care, but could. drop them some stuff, and they'll leave something for Josephine, scrolls or some such". These are people that are already there. Nobody sent them, they work for these people. All of this is explained in the first 3 minutes of meeting her, and even more, if you press back in Haven. Oh, the payment for that drop mission? Some handy evidence to use against that noble. There's no gold, no profit, other than intel that the Inquisition can use.

 

 

I played Origins and completed the Red Jenny quests as a City Elf rogue (I was very much hoping that Sera would be similar to what I RP-ed - she was not, but that's OK). I know there are multiple Jennies, but the person who was a Jenny in Origins is a Big Person and it seems like anyone who can pull off big Jenny operations becomes a Big Person in a way. Obviously, there's not only ONE Jenny. There's also not only one Lord or Lady in Orlais. 

 

Fair enough that they're not sending the people in - that's a fair point of difference, but Briala isn't necessarily "sending" the elves in either. Many of them already work for the nobles as well and the ones that no longer do came to work for her network of their own accord. They chose to be a part of her revolution (as far as I know -correct me if I'm wrong). 

 

I have seen all the things you're pointing out. There is gold and profit though - Sera wanted some, at least. She speaks about how we're going to get payment and even speaks of gold. Sera speaks constantly of coin. The idea that there is no coin involved is silly. She even mentions sometimes it's "pass the hat" meaning that the common people contributed their OWN money, but we, as a huge freaking Inquisition with major trade deals and such, are going to collect that measly sum from these poor folks. Now there is no money in the end, but that's what we were going there for. I think that's kind of fucked up. I get that Sera had some hand-to-mouth days and they maybe weren't so far behind, so I can understand her lust for money on some level, but let's not pretend it doesn't exist. 

[KaiserShep]

After the Winter Palace ball, Sera regards Gaspard, Celene and Briala with equally strong dislike. She despises their games and their using of other people to raise themselves up.

 

I liked bringing Sera to the ball. If you talk to her about what she thinks, she thinks Gaspard seems like a cool guy to sit and drink or kill things with, Celene is pretty and Briala is funny, but they're all lying.

[dekarserverbot]

Want examples in real life? There are still geocentrist out there.... hell if you push it there are still people who firmly believe that the Earth is flat, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

 

Or atheist morons that said that god doesn't exists...

[Dean_the_Young]

The only commonality is that both Briala's underlings and Sera's "friends" are always in danger in their respective lines of work. The difference, however, is that Sera, far as we can tell, does not lie to them and send them to their deaths.

 

Sera also doesn't lead them around by using ideology, or justify sacrifices with 'greater good of the X' arguments. Briala's pretty comfortable in the 'what I do is for the good of the city elves, even if some have to get hurt along the way,' which is a framework Sera rebels against. (Sera would also dislike a framework of 'what's good for me is good for the city elves,' which is pretty much Briala's sales pitch as to why the Inquisitor should help make her a noble.)

 

How is this different from what Sera does with her "friends"? She uses little people too. 

 

Sera's 'usage' is different in its manner and structure. For one, the Red Jenny network is an entirely opt-in arrangement: everyone who participates does so willingly and knowingly at pretty much every stage of the process. If you don't opt in, you are not in play.

 

Then there's the lack of using others as traps, the deals made between members of the networks for help and assistance, and the entire network's framework. Sera isn't a 'leader' of her 'friends' or the Red Jenny network, because the Red Jenny network isn't a hierarchy.

 

 

 

I guess Briala is a big person by Inquisition. It's hard for me to think of her that way; she was a little person when I met her in Masked Empire. A little person attached to a big person, but a little person nonetheless.

 

Well, she's certainly a Big Person now. Little people aren't major players in the fate of nations with their own spy networks.

 

 

I have no doubt Sera started as a little person, but is she really still one as Inquisition continues? Is she even one when meet her as a "Red Jenny"? How are her friends different from Briala's elves?

 

 

For one thing, they don't play racial politics to pit little people against little people so that big people can play The Game.

 

Whether Sera is a 'big' person now is certainly a fair question, and probably not one she could answer well. When she was a Red Jenny, she wasn't- the Red Jenny network isn't a power base that could elevate someone up. Her influence and ability was nothing more than what little people could put together.

 

Now, though, once she's in with the Inquisition? Then she gets access to the resources and alliances of Big People. It's not under her control, by any means, but her desire to be an influence of 'little people' in the Inquisition is going to get blowback in the other direction.

[KaiserShep]

Or atheist morons that said that god doesn't exists...

 

[DKJaigen]

Actually from a literary perspective, she's a very well written character.  We are arguing her merits.  We have been presented a flawed personality that is either loved or loathed.  She's immature, hypocritical and antagonistic, but at least she's memorable.  She's not boring and milquetoast like Ajantis, Cernd or that blue archeologist I left in the back of the ship.  She may be grating, but at least she's not boring.

 

I prefer boring over grating. also its not her task to be a grating char,

[KaiserShep]

I can't say that I'd prefer boring. Lookin' at you, Thom Rainier.

[berrieh]

Sera also doesn't lead them around by using ideology, or justify sacrifices with 'greater good of the X' arguments. Briala's pretty comfortable in the 'what I do is for the good of the city elves, even if some have to get hurt along the way,' which is a framework Sera rebels against.

 

But when the commoner gets hurt by the noble in Crestwood for helping Red Jenny, Sera doesn't consider it her fault at all. Sera doesn't rebel against this framework as far as I can see. Even after seeing that it hurt someone, she doesn't change - she thinks what she does is for the best, even if people have to get hurt. When I tried to tell her it was a problem, she "Greatly Disapproved" ironically. We were still friends and all, but she didn't want to hear how it was hurting people. This is a point that I'd personally make to someone like Briala, but also someone like Sera. 

 

I also disagree that Sera's displeasure at the nobility doesn't count as ideology. And she has other ideologies as well throughout her journey. Not that ideology is really a problem per se. It's in how you use it. 

 

 

Sera's 'usage' is different in its manner and structure. For one, the Red Jenny network is an entirely opt-in arrangement: everyone who participates does so willingly and knowingly at pretty much every stage of the process. If you don't opt in, you are not in play.

 

You have to opt in to work for Briala to, though. Everyone who participates does so willingly and knowingly. 

 

 

Then there's the lack of using others as traps, the deals made between members of the networks for help and assistance, and the entire network's framework. Sera isn't a 'leader' of her 'friends' or the Red Jenny network, because the Red Jenny network isn't a hierarchy.

 

Well, that's a fair point. I'd say she's a figure with power though. She lists a few other Jennies, presumably on her level (like the Warden Jenny was if you were one). Now much of Sera's power comes from her skill, but it's still power. I didn't mean to imply she was an absolute leader of anything - just powerful compared to her friends. Do minor nobles not count either? They aren't always leaders of things. 

 

 

 

For one thing, they don't play racial politics to pit little people against little people so that big people can play The Game.

 

I don't think "playing racial politics" is fair. Briala's cause is only racial because of racism perpetuated against her people. She's not anti-human in any way. She wants to help the little people - she's just beginning with the people most disenfranchised and downtrodden in Orlais. Unless there's something I missed. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Fair enough if we have cause to believe Briala is intentionally sacrificing people this way. I've never been very thorough or used spoilers yet at the Winter Palace. I didn't realize the elf was sent into the trap purposefully to get hurt - I didn't think Briala intended her harm anymore than Sera intended her friends harm. 

 

If Briala is doing this, then that's ironic as that's what she fussed at Celene for doing in ME. 

 

It's ambiguous, but no one in-game considers it even potentially out of character for her to do so, just as no one considered the assassination that could be blamed on Gaspard as out of character.

 

Of course, whether Briala intended her harm or not is irrelevant. Briala's position vis-a-vis her subordinates, how she's risking them and pitting them against other Little People or getting them in danger in the name of ideology, is what pisses Sera off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I played Origins and completed the Red Jenny quests as a City Elf rogue (I was very much hoping that Sera would be similar to what I RP-ed - she was not, but that's OK). I know there are multiple Jennies, but the person who was a Jenny in Origins is a Big Person and it seems like anyone who can pull off big Jenny operations becomes a Big Person in a way. Obviously, there's not only ONE Jenny. There's also not only one Lord or Lady in Orlais. 

 

 

The Jenny network is based on favors of a friend, not a command and control relationship. It's decentralized espionage: there's no Big Person because no one person can pull or even see all the levers or direct the network to do what they want. There is no network discipline or oversight to keep it unified and coherent.

After the Winter Palace ball, Sera regards Gaspard, Celene and Briala with equally strong dislike. She despises their games and their using of other people to raise themselves up.

 

 

I liked bringing Sera to the ball. If you talk to her about what she thinks, she thinks Gaspard seems like a cool guy to sit and drink or kill things with, Celene is pretty and Briala is funny, but they're all lying.

 

 

Lady Mai also has the best introduction.

[robertthebard]

What? Did you actually read my post? I specifically say I don't find her grating and annoying. I also said I don't necessarily think it's hypocrisy - just see how the case can be made. 
 
 
I have taken her to those caves. She is appropriately appalled. I don't doubt that Sera is appalled by some of the things the nobles do to the commoners - what I doubt is whether she is any better than they are when she uses them as well. I don't dislike Sera. I do see how you could easily read her as hypocritical for her selfish side.
 
What does rudeness have to do with it and when did I call her rude? She can be rude, certainly. So can lots of characters. Sera actually rather liked all of my characters so far, and we had nice chats - she wasn't rude to my PC really. You're making a lot of assumptions. 
 
 
I gave you a dictionary definition with supporting evidence. You have not refuted my evidence - just talked around it, making lots of other assumptions of my view that not only are not correct but go against what I explicitly stated. 
 
Anyway, I don't really care. I don't even really think Sera is a hypocrite, but I do think she can be read that way, depending on the lenses through which you view her actions. (There is no clear answer to this.) I think she is misguided and ineffective more than hypocritical, but I see how she fits a definition of hypocritical is all. This will be my last reply to this train of thought - but I did want to say that you are wildly misrepresenting my view, missing my point, and not addressing the evidence I gave about her potential hypocrisy.

Oh, you mean where she gives us the insider information for the War Table? The thing where people keep telling me that she sends people into danger to suit her needs, rather than the truth of the matter, which she explains when you're deciding whether or not to recruit her, that these people work for these nobles already, and maybe want them taken down a peg, so they provide "tips" to her. Some of these jobs probably do pay her, but the jobs we get on the war table? Some of them point out stashes, but none pay her directly. The one to benefit most is the Inquisition, which is, sad to say, what she offered from the get go.

But here's a definition of hypocrisy given in one of these discussions: She laughed when the solasmancer told her that everything she knew about being Dalish was a lie. Go ahead, explain to me how that's hypocrisy, while you're positing "I can see how they think that". Because there's nothing hypocritical about it. She hates the Dalish that put on airs and use the tattoos as proof that they're superior to other elves, only to find out that it brands them as slaves. Harsh, most definitely, but hypocritical? Hey, you explain it to me, the guy that put that out there couldn't.

Maybe you think the people that believe she sends "agents" into these noble's houses have a point, and so she can be seen as hypocritical? You profess to understand her a bit, is that how Friends of Red Jenny works? Isn't it, as she explains, true that these people are already in harm's way, and are trying to find a way out, and so reach out to Red Jennies to bail them out? So how is that hypocritical? How, in fact, is this not trying to help people that reached out to her for help?

So yeah, with a little bit of knowledge of how it actually works, I can, and do laugh all night long about "she's a hypocrite" from people that don't even know what the real deal is. Just like with Briala, who fancies herself a noble, and even tries to make a deal with the Inquisitor to set her up as one. So no, I don't see how someone can brand her as a hypocrite. Any time you test her beliefs, you find out with approval, or disapproval. Every time, not when she doesn't get paid, or when she does, but when you crap on her beliefs, both religious, and her Red Jenny ideals. She is consistent through out.

[KaiserShep]

You have to opt in to work for Briala to, though. Everyone who participates does so willingly and knowingly. 

 

The elf the Inquisitor can talk to in the Winter Palace does not participate knowingly, because Briala lied to her.

[berrieh]

Maybe you think the people that believe she sends "agents" into these noble's houses have a point, and so she can be seen as hypocritical? You profess to understand her a bit, is that how Friends of Red Jenny works? Isn't it, as she explains, true that these people are already in harm's way, and are trying to find a way out, and so reach out to Red Jennies to bail them out? So how is that hypocritical? How, in fact, is this not trying to help people that reached out to her for help?

 

I said I wouldn't respond (and I don't know why you're bringing up elvish stuff and such in the part I cut out - I'm not the one who said that stuff), but let's narrow it down to one instance.

 

Why does she take their gold? I get that a girl needs to eat, but she's very eager to take potentially "pass the hat" gold when she wants the Inquisitor to come with her to pick up the drop (that goes wrong) in Crestwood. She doesn't need money by this point. Why take it? Why be so eager for it? (My answer is that, in her desperation, in what she has seen and experienced, she is as desirous of power as any noble is, really, because she wants the protection of some kind of power - she doesn't want to be a noble, certainly, I'm not saying THAT - and this makes her very similar to those she hates. Most people are, and it's one of the things I find interesting about her character, actually, so that's not a slam on her, just how I view her. She's terrified to actually be a Little Person and desperately wants to be a Big Person in many ways, even as she despises them.) 

 

Also, at no point do we actually help people that we see. Maybe we do in the War Table missions, but they rarely get follow up. Maybe those people had their throats slit later - I don't know. We don't see any evidence of Sera's help, but we do see evidence of her (accidental) harm and her eagerness to profit personally from helping the little people. 

 

And I like Sera - I just don't think that people who say she's hypocritical about helping the little people are without a point. 

 

The elf the Inquisitor can talk to in the Winter Palace does not participate knowingly, because Briala lied to her.

 

I didn't realize she lied to her. Or it didn't register with me. If that's the case, fair enough. 

[KaiserShep]

if the mod could be the 'Gibs' slap the back of the head thing I'm all for it.

It'd be funny if there was one for Iron Bull, and it glitched to get Greatly Approved every time you did it.

[robertthebard]

I said I wouldn't respond (and I don't know why you're bringing up elvish stuff and such in the part I cut out - I'm not the one who said that stuff), but let's narrow it down to one instance.
 
Why does she take their gold? I get that a girl needs to eat, but she's very eager to take potentially "pass the hat" gold when she wants the Inquisitor to come with her to pick up the drop (that goes wrong) in Crestwood. She doesn't need money by this point. Why take it? Why be so eager for it? 
 
Also, at no point do we actually help people that we see. Maybe we do in the War Table missions, but they rarely get follow up. Maybe those people had their throats slit later - I don't know. We don't see any evidence of Sera's help, but we do see evidence of her (accidental) harm and her eagerness to profit personally from helping the little people. 
 
And I like Sera - I just don't think that people who say she's hypocritical about helping the little people are without a point. 
 
 
I didn't realize she lied to her. Or it didn't register with me. If that's the case, fair enough.

Let's look at what that mission entailed, shall we? Mission on the Table, Nobles squabbling over land, little people caught in the middle.

Where does this mission come from? Who initiates contact? The "Little People", presumably, right? Only that's not really the case, is it? The whole thing is a set up, because Sera's been costing some minor noble money. He admits as much in the dialog. He then, after killing the person that he used to set us up, tries to bargain with us for her.

What did Sera think the best idea was? To send a contingency of troops through town. Nobody needed to get hurt, just march through. That's what she intended to happen. Yet, here we are, assigning her blame for responding to a request for help, because the help didn't go as planned. As to a reward for her efforts, isn't it a reward for the Inquisition's efforts? These people know that we are in no way obligated to do anything about minor land claims. We did, and they want to express their gratitude, we think, and yeah, I can see why Sera would be happy about that. It means that, since the Inquisition can see a benefit from the arrangement, maybe they'll be inclined to do more if it arises. Given her beliefs, I can see why she's excited, her arm just got a lot longer. I have never, and will never claim that she's altruistic, but she believes in her cause. Yes, she wants things back to normal so that she can go back to making a living doing what she likes to do, instead of fighting demons and stuff that she doesn't want to do, but does because she knows it will help her people too, and that's how she sees them, and tells us that right off the bat, they are her people.

[Dean_the_Young]

But when the commoner gets hurt by the noble in Crestwood for helping Red Jenny, Sera doesn't consider it her fault at all. Sera doesn't rebel against this framework as far as I can see. Even after seeing that it hurt someone, she doesn't change - she thinks what she does is for the best, even if people have to get hurt. When I tried to tell her it was a problem, she "Greatly Disapproved" ironically. We were still friends and all, but she didn't want to hear how it was hurting people. This is a point that I'd personally make to someone like Briala, but also someone like Sera. 

 

Of course she doesn't think that it's her fault. Sera is irresponsible, and can directly point at the person who actually hurt the people. The reason bad things happened was because of that bad person. Who she killed. If he weren't so bad, he wouldn't be so dead. That's just her nature.

 

This isn't, however, the same arrangement or power relationship or sort of responsibility that falls on a hierarchial spy network that might have tried a similar thing. For one thing, every one of her 'friends' in that action were opt-ins. In no way did she coerce them.

 

I also disagree that Sera's displeasure at the nobility doesn't count as ideology. And she has other ideologies as well throughout her journey. Not that ideology is really a problem per se. It's in how you use it. 

 

 

That's giving waaay too much credit to Sera, who is so invested on emotional reason that she probably couldn't create a comprehensive system if she tried. The distinguishing features of an ideology is that it's a system of ideas and ideals, especially one that forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy, which is shared by many people. Sera's got feelings, but few ideas on any practical policies that would put them into effect... and, well, the less said about her coherence on structuring economics and politics, the better.

 

Sera doesn't have an ideology. Sera's got opinions.

 

(Bold ones. Hence the bold font.)

 

 

You have to opt in to work for Briala to, though. Everyone who participates does so willingly and knowingly. 

 

 

Not quite. Or rather, you need to realize that a volunteer into a hierarchy isn't the same relationship as an anonymous opt-in participant.

 

Briala's network is a hierarchy in which agents are identified and directed to action. They have limited knowledge of the other cell members, but there is a hierarchy they follow and they are expected to follow it. Refusing to would be... unwise. Likewise, exploitation and double-blind mission sets (in which the agent doesn't know the real objective or intended action) are real things. It's actually the primary 'evidence' against Briala.

 

The Red Jenny network, however, is structured to make this sort of hierarchy and usage virtually impossible. Sera is an organizer of offers of participation, not a a ringleader who directs her friends to certain objectives. She can only get out of them what they offer to do for her. Because the agent is the one who dictates what could be provided, Sera's ability to make them or get them to do anything is far more limited. Likewise, her ability to double-cross someone (such as how Briala allegedly did) is extremely limited because doing so would burn her credibility within the Red Jenny network.

 

 

 

 

Well, that's a fair point. I'd say she's a figure with power though. She lists a few other Jennies, presumably on her level (like the Warden Jenny was if you were one). Now much of Sera's power comes from her skill, but it's still power. I didn't mean to imply she was an absolute leader of anything - just powerful compared to her friends. Do minor nobles not count either? They aren't always leaders of things. 

 

 

Here's where you need to get back on track with what Sera's priorities and dislikes are. Sera doesn't hate nobles or leaders: Sera hates people who act like nobles against the little people. 'Big' and 'small' people aren't relative measures, but her vague view on how people interact with others. A minor noble who doesn't lead anything could still act 'big' by being a **** towards the 'little guy.'

 

You can have power and influence, but it's how you use it that qualifies you for her **** list. She doesn't like 'big' people exploiting the little gal for jollies or power or influence. As long as you don't act like that, you could be objectively 'big' (like, say, Inquisitor) and not qualify.

 

Sera wouldn't be 'big' from having a bit more influence or connections than the littlest people. Sera would only qualify as 'big' by her standard if she acted big.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think "playing racial politics" is fair. Briala's cause is only racial because of racism perpetuated against her people. She's not anti-human in any way. She wants to help the little people - she's just beginning with the people most disenfranchised and downtrodden in Orlais. Unless there's something I missed. 

 

 

Fairness is irrelevant. Briala's lack of anti-human sentiment is irrelevant. General cultural racism against elves is irrelevant. What matters is how Briala approaches the class of 'little people.'

 

Briala is not interested in helping the little people as Sera defines the concept. Briala is not a panracial advocate of the poor making a greater good argument about where to start first. She is not out to reform the nobility system, bring down the oppressive hierarchy, elevate the servant class, or anything that would make Orlais equal in any sense except racial. Briala is interesting in helping specific types of people, some of whom are little, but she lacks a class awareness (as opposed to race consciousnesses) that could qualify her as having a pan-racial interest in the little people.

 

 

And that's just a less flattering view of her goals. In practice...

 

In the process of her elfy crusade which isn't even aimed at the little people as a whole, Briala gets a lot of little people killed and killing other little people so that she can act big and become even bigger. That's at least five of the things Sera doesn't like.