289 réponses à ce sujet

[Twilight_Princess]

I'll admit when the party returned for a celebration I rubbed my hands gleefully and thought "Haha! Well done Bioware. It's not the end just yet! Solas is missing while everyone is else partying? Something's not right indeed Inquisitor.Here comes the REAL finale!"  and then...credits. I was disappointed. I was hoping for a proper last stand and there was none. No risk either. I skipped upgrading my castle and was convinced my mad rush to finish the game (I was loving the story) would result in dead NPCs for sure. But nope. I expected who I had allied with to change how a last stand would play out. I expected some sort of input and wrong decisions would have resulted in casualties (you screw up and get your mage army slaughtered after you forced them to join the Inquisition as prisoners equals a lot more mage rebellion in the slides etc) I loved the twist after the credits but that party just screamed "It's not over yet guys" at least to me.

[Mark of the Dragon]

Fair enough. You seem to be open to tragedies that you cannot stop, so long as you were given the option to try. For what it's worth, I agree with you. 

I agree and disagree really. I think tragedy that cannot be stopped can be a powerful method of story telling. 

 

I also think tragedy that occurs because of your choices can be a powerful tool. I mean there is something inherently amazing about watching a comapnion or character I am attached to die because of choices that I make. Not direct choices like, oh I am going to execute Bob here, but making a choice and then realizing later that it cost me. Knowing I did that makes those situation more meaningful IMO

[Mark of the Dragon]

A sentence that stuck to my mind ever since I heard it (but can't recall where), which applies to this subject:

 

"To vanquish without adversity is to triumph without glory."

 

And there's really not much adversity in Inquisition, that's true. We do lose either Stroud or Hawke, by choice, technically it is a significant loss. We do also get our arses kicked at Haven which I thought was very neat, because at that point Corypheus suddenly becomes "a real, tangible, serious threat". But after Haven... and until the Fade level there's essentially no "personal"-level losses. Once you reach the end of the Fade level you get to choose between Hawke or Stroud (but one of them does die nonetheless). And... after the Fade level is done it's... yeah, it's like Cory can't do anything, nothing happens. I do agree with that. Still I enjoy the game anyway. The victory at the end does feel almost empty, a bit of a shame, but I still enjoyed the whole thing overall.

 

Seriously though, I think that the whole BioWare fanbase has been spoiled by the magnificence that was ME2's Suicide Run. Since then it's like people expect it in every one of their game. The thing is that one mission in ME2 really was unique to that game, and only ME2's team specifically seemed to have thought about it at that time. It's not like it's a big rule stickied to big posters all over their office now "BioWare games = choices AND tragedy for a more glorifying ending.", akin to a reminder to their employees. It's unfortunate though, because yeah I admit I'd have liked to get a Suicide Run-style mission in Inquisition (and in ME3, too... *cough*). I think that Skyhold could have had that potential. The last battle was a victory but... it was just the final victory. Prior to that we also had dozens of other victories. Near the end of the game I remember talking to Bull, he said something like "Don't worry boss, just one last fight, we'll kick that guy's ass". Man he wasn't wrong, I feel almost bad for Cory... almost.

I agree with this. I have been spoiled by that suicide run. It was the best and most rewarding game ending ever.

 

My chooses could keep everyone alive or have a bunch of people including Shepard die. 

 

Bioware should incorporate the idea more. Inquisition could have had an awesome final fight at skyhold where we get see our forces put to work. We could be tasked with ordering team mates not in out party to take on certain roles based on the type of characters they are. Not knowing the character or not having a really upgraded keep could result in loses. Maybe Corypheus could have decided to recruit darkspawn into his army and having the wardens stay in Orlais meant you had their support in this fight and they are able to route darkspawn and avoid causalties, not having them makes stopping Darkspawn harder.

 

The end fight could not just incorporate dragons but the fade itself. Maybe it comes down to the Inquisitor making a choice and with enough forces or other factors the inquisitor manages to stop Corypheus while they are fine. Another route could have been that the Inquisitor stops Corypheus but somehow gets stuck in the fade after closing the Breach and vanquishing Corypheus. That ending is a bit more bittersweet but is still cool and leaves room for the Inquisitors escape.

 

Mass Effect 2 has one of the most heralded final missions ever so the fact that Bioware does not try similar set-ups more often boggles me.

[Chuvvy]

BW tragedy is usually poorly written melodrama so I don't see it as a huge loss.

[Eterna]

Next game you will gather resources, build an army, then defeat the bad guy while making kissy face with your LI. Then you will do it again. And again. You'll get bored and then wonder how this fanbase could possibly get excited of the same boring plot over and over again, you will crave difference in the story  and get none.

 

Until one day Bioware will get the courage to try something new, to end a story they've told they way they wanted too instead of just providing fan service. You will cry out in joy that Bioware created a story with tragedy and real loss, that for once your story ended differently. And you will be called a troll for enjoying something that breaks the mold, every single logical discussion you attempt to have with this fanbase will ultimately end up with you banging your head against the wall as they scream "but muh good feels". 

 

And then you will become me, a cancerous poster who can only view others on this forum as sheeple. 

[Ryzaki]

BW tragedy is usually poorly written melodrama so I don't see it as a huge loss.

 

Agreed.

[Mark of the Dragon]

I do agree that I ultimately prefer a happy ending, but I also like it when it feels like it was an emotional rollercoaster to get there. There was almost none of that in DAI. Almost everything you do succeeds with seemingly little effort.

This.
 
People act like what we want is to constantly fail. That is not the case. However if we never fail then the game loses its edge. Why did we even need the Inquisition. We could have easily took out companions, attacked Corypheus, and ended the threat. Hell even the Breach is not scary because you literally close it right after siding with Templars or the Mages. What is there to be afraid of?

 

If you are going to make me build an organization then I better need the dang thing. I am ok with happy endings, I will admit to having a preference towards bittersweet endings but the fact that the inquisitor lives is not my problem. Its the fact that everything was so simple. I want to at least work for it.

[steamcamel]

I liked the banquet and that it was a happy ending, even though I had no idea what had happened before that. The banquet was also a nice touch.

 

I'd still like to have seen a finale where my companions, close friends or love interest were more involved. Nothing was really at stake. It was just like the game was trying to get itself over with. Coryphenus even shouts "Let it end now". He just doesn't work as a villain. The game gave me very little reason to care about his motives, and he doesn't feel threatening like he did in Legacy.

[Mark of the Dragon]

Nah,I think the hero didn't lose enough.The reapers should have taken the citadel first ,locked the relays,used bioweapons(seeker swarms,nerve agents,disease etc) and made a direct attempt at indoctrinating shepard and Hacket.I would rather the villains do whatever is true to their character,instead of being nerfed or turned stupid so the hero can win.(Like Corypheus)

It is dissappointing to watch yet another hero win because the big bad was too arrogant complacent or talkative.

Alternatively make the villain and the hero equals in terms of power and intelligence.
Better yet give the villain some good qualities.Maybe he is forgiving to his minions failures,or pets dogs instead of kicking them.Maybe he wants to be a *benevolent* god.


It would be a long struggle,but it would be worth witnessing.

It sounds like Loghain really.

 

I agree with you. Loghain was the best antagonist Dragon Age has had. I am getting tired of one dimensional enemies that are nothing more then plot devices.

 

I'm just gonna copy and paste what I wrote on another website:

 

We needed a more satisfying finale. Not talking about the ending, but the actual final battle. I had no idea playing the Well of Sorrows mission that I was actually in the final battle. I honestly was expecting a big fight that was gonna take place in Skyhold. That's why I spent so much time trying to upgrade the fortress. Which, aside from the courtyard, didn't really make a difference in the end. 

Instead you select the final mission (if you can call it that) and the game literally drops you off in front of the final boss. There's no major fight where you battle your way through obstacles and enemies before engaging the villain. It seemed like a waste to have a game about building a powerful organization if the final battle is just you and 3 party members fighting the final boss.

Honestly this game begged to have the Suicide Mission mechanic at the end. Upgrade your fortress (Normandy), gain friendship with you allies (Loyalty), and have a final battle between the Inquisition and the Demon Horde, as you make tactical decisions throughout the course of the battle. I can also envision taking a conversation break in the middle of the level, where you bar the gates to the great hall and have final conversations with your party members before the Inquisition makes on final clash with the opposing army.

 

Imagine having to climb the mountain tops around Skyhold to face down Cory's Dragon, as the battle of Skyhold burns down below. Imagine after killing the Dragon, Cory lifts pieces of the Earth, as you fight your way across floating islands to make it to where Cory is for the final showdown.

Wouldn't that have been awesome?

It would have to me.

Agreed. I was just talking about this in another thread. You think that for all Bioware's talk about scale and how epic the game would be that we would have had a more epic final mission.

 

As for people saying it would be a copy paste, Dragon Age has never done anything close to this. After spending 150 hours the game needed something epic to make everything feel satisfying. 

[Aravasia]

I agree with the OP. As much as I liked the rest of the game, the final battle just felt so empty. There was no sense that it was all leading up to this, or that anyone was actually in danger. The attack on Haven was done much better, in my opinion (which, including the journey to Skyhold, was simply amazing). I feel as well that Corypheus did not get enough development compared to past antagonists (Loghain, Meredith). I had high hopes for his character in 'In Your Heart Shall Burn', but as it was, that had been the only time we had gotten to speak with him, or know anything of his character pre-climax. Basically, I feel as though there should have been more build up towards the final battle. DAO and ME2 both had wonderful final missions, with your gathered forces/companions all coming into play. As others mentioned, having Coryheus be successful at the Temple of Mythal and an attack on Skyhold would have been much preferred, and actually make me feel as though we were at risk, rather than just sending off me and three of my companions to put down an already defeated foe. I do not feel as though it was the actual fight with Corypheus that had been at fault, the raised ruins/dragon fight were definitely nice touches, it just heavily lacked in the sequence leading up to that. 

[Seraphim24]

Yes

 

That said, I think they were trying to create tragedy, loss, and such in the game. Moreover, I don't think this suicide mission hyper cinematic or epic castle stormsiege approach is really what drives forward the sense of meaning either. (Although Helm's Deep was a pretty cool fight, sure)

 

I think it's as simple as doing things like giving (someone like) Corypheus a more relatable reason for his own fight. Say, he has a daughter or something that is dying and he is trying to reclaim the cure, only made possible by demon magic or something. It's not necessary for entertainment to always redound into a cinematic slaughterfest with a clear winner or loser.

 

I just played Remember Me for instance which surprised me at the end because it had a kind of, oh we're breaking into the final place, we're going to break through to the end, and I fully expected to fight the Final Boss with his rotating platforms and absurd pyrotechnics and cheesy one liners, instead <small spoilers> I was treated to a scene of remorse and misguided ideals, reconciliation, and warmth, in a way that completely surprised me. I'm like "This is the epic fight! Why isn't there a boss shouting at me and firing lasers!"

 

It was a really pretty cool game, but it didn't have to do with flash. The thing that the Suicide Mission did was it threatened to really kill off characters, but the origins of those characters and themes were laid earlier in the game as well as earlier in the Mass Effect universe where characters were made relatable and human.

 

The ending of ME1 was similar in that you had the choice to sacrifice the council, which wasn't this "embodiment of evil" schtick necessarily, it was a momentous moment because it wasn't entirely clear what was going on, and therefore you were engaged. When someone is bland and made purely destructive, it makes it easier to know what to do, but it's also harder to enjoy.

 

Just my random impression.

[wright1978]

Personally i thought Haven attack was fine. There's loss and a forced retreat.

I certainly don't want their to be the level of forced loss that was attempted in ME3.

 

I do think end mission could have done with more of a ME2 end mission feel, where companions could have been put at risk if wrong choices are made.

I like the victory party but the mission before it feels rather flat.

[Vox Draco]

I just read over the thread (and damn myself, I am just playing a second campaign with a female dalish romancing Solas, why am I always making the wrong choices??)

 

So far still have to finish the game proper, so can't really comment on the end. But glad to see we don't get another ME3 here. Grimdark. If I want hopeless situations and universes I'd play a Warhammer-Game.

 

Also the little trip to Thedas-Future gave me enough tragedy (really a bit like an Elric of Melnibone-Moment there...I could see the world shattered, demons everywhere, the last people failing to stop Cory, then everything turns into red lyrium, survivers driven mad and resorting to cannibalism because well, no more rams are bred and herded? A terrifying future and fate for Thedas, and I am glad we can kick Cory's behind for this)

 

As for Cory himself: Might one problem be that he was first conceived to be the villain with Hawke as Shepard-Like protagonist of DAI? Think of it: Cory is introduced in DA2 and has a rather personal story with the Hawke-Family. It might have worked much better on the emotional-side with these two as the focus, instead of the Inquisitor? Just a thought though.

 

Anyway: DLC/addon, I see you coming. If Skyhold is not being tested in battle, if Solas is either dead or presumed dead(?) .. I see a lot of potential for a massive addon here that sets up the next game, maybe even cripple the Inquisition severly so the next Hero (who surely will be a Grey Warden again, I want Griffons!) has something to fight for again.

 

Trust me on this: I was sure Bethesda would make an Addon with Solstheim in the focus, and I was right ... sadly I cannot predict anything else since then, especially the weather and lotto-numbers...

[WarBaby2]

I think the whole, overarching story was lacking in the "show" department...it was fine up until the battle for haven, but after that up until the point of the final assault, we only got told about the high stakes war that was raging all over Ferelden/Orlais, we never actual saw it. In a way, that was akin to ME3's problems, where the war itself was very "in the background".

[KillTheLastRomantic]

I think a lot of the problem is that you do indeed feel too powerful and safe throughout. You're always two steps ahead of Corypheus, basically just cleaning up his messes and thwarting his plans, leaving him scrambling for other options. He doesn't feel like much of a threat at all.

[WarBaby2]

I think a lot of the problem is that you do indeed feel too powerful and safe throughout. You're always two steps ahead of Corypheus, basically just cleaning up his messes and thwarting his plans, leaving him scrambling for other options. He doesn't feel like much of a threat at all.

All comes down to the fact that the "hard choices" aren't really there. Everything you can do is kinda mandatory, you never really loose anything... in the original concepts for the game, you could deside to sacrifice certain assets for others, but that is no longer really there, so, no drama comes from your desitions.

[Corto81]

I think a lot of the problem is that you do indeed feel too powerful and safe throughout. You're always two steps ahead of Corypheus, basically just cleaning up his messes and thwarting his plans, leaving him scrambling for other options. He doesn't feel like much of a threat at all.

 

True.

 

There's even a dialogue option in which you say to one of Corypheus' minions that he (Cory) should be used to disappointment by now.(lol)

 

...

 

Also, the way to the Well never felt like a huge battle, pitched or otherwise, just small pockets skirmishes in the forest (3 soldiers vs 3 red templars etc.).

Then, once you get to the Well, you end up being teleported basically in front of Corypheus, and you whip his useless ass.

 

Corypheus never feels like a treat to the world, despite what certain NPCs keep telling.

And it certainly never felt like an army was necessary there. Nor the Inquisition, for the matter.

[WarBaby2]

Cut content, is all I can guess at... the game feels so reduced to the "critical path", as far as the main story line goes, it's no wonder it never really feels dramatic.

[cljqnsnyc]

One thing we can always count on...

 

Someone , somewhere will not be satisfied...

 

No matter what.

 

Not sad enough? Try ME3's color coded ending and cry.

 

Not happy enough? DA:I's heroes save the day with minimal losses. Joy all over the world!

 

 

Or vice/versa 

 

Neither suit you? 

 

Oh good grief!

 

 

Don't play video games made by Bioware!

[WarBaby2]

Don't play video games made by Bioware!

Well, I think all forum discussions are over then... go home people.

 

Seriously, though, I think people would not "complain" after each game if BW wouldn't consistently get it ALMOST right. Not they didn't get it right in the past, of ocurse... BG2, KotOR, DAO, got it "right".

[Tsunami Chef]

How are you always 2 steps ahead of corypheus?

 

He buttfucks your entire base and you only survive because of a lucky trebuchet shot...and that's within the first act. He is one step ahead of YOU for both the mages and templar missions...having control of both of those armies before you even know what the **** is going on. When you get to the grey wardens he already has a minion who has totally warped their minds. At the ball he has already taken control of the duchess.... When you get to the harbor wilds he is already at the ruins before you..i mean are we playing the same game?

 

Foiling a villains plot is you know what happens in like...every story in history?

[Tsunami Chef]

Well, I think all forum discussions are over then... go home people.

 

Seriously, though, I think people would not "complain" after each game if BW wouldn't consistently get it ALMOST right. Not they didn't get it right in the past, of ocurse... BG2, KotOR, DAO, got it "right".

Maybe you should go home? If you haven't like a game Bioware did since fuckin DA:O why are you still posting on their forums? They have obviously passed you by...Maybe instead of doing things wrong they have just been doing things differently? Are you such a grand individual that if something doesn't appeal to you than it is "wrong" That is the biggest problem with this forum...it's like signing up for an account on Bioware gave you all a writers license and the capability to objectively determine whether anything bioware does is right or wrong, good or bad, useful or filler.

 

It's fairly pathetic. And you guys wonder why Bioware employees don't like discussing things with you.

[mmmu]

Yeah, I agree. This was the weakest link of the game for me, making it harder to feel emotionally invested. Cory was indeed quite lackluster as a villain, his entrance was solid and he was well-established as a force to be reckoned with but... that was pretty much it! In the end I almost felt pity for the poor delusional man   

Personally I think all other Bioware games have great and appropriate endings (Well, maybe not DA2 but I would hardly blame that on the ending). Each to their own though, and it doesn't change the fact that the game was solid and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm also glad to see there are many people who enjoyed this kind of story and ending so

[cljqnsnyc]

Well, I think all forum discussions are over then... go home people.

 

Seriously, though, I think people would not "complain" after each game if BW wouldn't consistently get it ALMOST right. Not they didn't get it right in the past, of ocurse... BG2, KotOR, DAO, got it "right".

Isn't that a matter of opinion?

 

Or are your opinions facts?

[Vox Draco]

Just some thoughts on the villain...before everyone gets down on poor Cory people should remember: This is the first Dragon Age Game actually featuring a villain at all ^^

 

I mean DAO? The Archdemon? He popped up the last five minutes, but at leasthe was referred to a couple of times earlier, so he came not out of teh blue. But a threat? Neither he nor his Darkspawn-army ever felt like one. The whole tragedy only came when they eventually had reached Redcliffe and Denerim, politely waiting somewhere in the Wilds until the Warden was ready to deal with Werewolves and Demons

 

And Loghain? could have had potential, but ... totally underused and in the end: pointless to have him even there.  And in DA2? Meredith? the Artishock? I mean Arishock? Not really...

 

Bioware, as much as I like them, really has a problem giving us proper threats and villains. And I appreciate they at least try with Cory to make a true anatgonist with clearly defined goals (Conquer the world! OF COURSE!) instead of having the usually morally grey kinda multi-dimensioanl villain that ultimately no one cares about (At least me...Darth Vader? Pft...give me the damn Emperor any time!)

 

And looking at Mass Effect...I think Saren was the last Bioware-villain that was kinda interesting (contradicting my own statement above ), and then they totally screwed their own story up ... royally. ME2 had lost its focus, and the war in ME3 agaisnt Cerberus...oh wait, weren't the Reapers the main threat? Yeah, they were around as well, kinda. Oh and Harbinger also showed up briefly before you know who appeared...the worst villain in game-history...

 

Maybe Bioware should play Jade Empire again? I never played that one extensively but ... the main villain there...he really was one of their best. Maybe because we met him early on, and only much later we get the twist about him revealed...?