289 réponses à ce sujet

[cljqnsnyc]

Why does always the "hero" win? Why, at the end, there is always "lived happily ever after"?

 

I like those in Disney pictures - hero rides a dragon/horse, enters dramatically, kicks villains' collective arses, and save the day!

 

But why can't we get the darkest, incomprehensible, revolutionary ending at the end of a "matured" theme RPG? Why can't my warden or hawke or inquisitor gets trapped in a monstrous dimension (like Fade) or gets struck in time magic? Why can't my (read, hero's) mind get convoluted, corrupted and complete its journey to the "dark side" to be the vanguard/villain of the next game?

 

Speaking of which, why does Morigan merely stops by mentioning "what are the old Gods", and why didn't she pursue the discussion further??

 

After seeing the not-so-secret ending after the credits (featuring Solas and Flemeth), I felt very stupid. At the end of anything and everything that I have done so far, I realized that we were just a foot-note to the fact that we were pawns of a drama which started when 'Gods' screw things up!

After the ME3 endings reactions, I don't think you'll be seeing any depressing or sad endings from Bioware again. 

 

Besides, isn't real life trying enough? Personally, I don't want to play games where everyone loses in the end. What's the point of going through hours of gameplay just to have it all go south?

 

Who says you have to be depressed or lose in order to be mature? 

 

Can't you be happy and win AND still be mature? 

[TyDurden13]

I see what the OP was saying, and theyare right that that is a powerful storytelling tool...but I think DA:I was never going for that kind of story.  Inquisition is not about plucky underdogs overcoming impossible odds and enduring hardships....it's about the rise of a new global power.   When you look at how the game was designed - it was (or was supposed to be) built around choices that define what kind of an organization you want to run, and what kind of allies you want to cultivate, and how you go about pursuing your goals.  You  are supposed to be making large scale decisions that affect nations and topple regimes.

 

In other words, the point of the story is the rise of the Inquisition, not the defeat of Corypheus, who by the end of the game has been completely outmanuevered and outgunned.

[schall_und_rauch]

Something I really enjoyed was the story flow in DA:O.
At first the real feeling of loss and hardship in the prologue.
Then the betrayal of Loghain in the opening act, which felt much heavier than Haven.
Then standard middle gameplay of gaining power, with Loghain becoming meaner with every inch.

Finally, a political showdown with some real tough decisions, where everything you did before mattered. The human side of the conflict, so excellently played.
The Dark Ritual, with a scene both intimate, magical, and highly plot significant.
And then the final epic battle which reflects on the power you gathered.

Inquisition has great moments in the middle. Every story quest from Mage/Templar freeing to Arbor Wilds is magnifically crafted. But three things are missing:
1) the feeling of growth in the inquisition -- power is just a number to unlock new areas.
2) The human side of conflict. Once Skyhold is reached, you don't really feel any human enemies opposing you. The Chantry just went mute. There is no antagonist other than Cory and his minions.
3) The final combat is just "yeah, ok, so we finish him off". I didn't need to be head of an Inquisition for that. It didn't feel epic.

[Ennai and 54 others]

The hero must crawl to and find his victory soaked in the blood,ashes and tears of all that he fought for.

[Ebony Drake]

It's not the matter of getting a good ending that's the issue here, it's the matter of it feeling earned; which it does not, considering that you get the same exact result no matter what your choices are in the game. Where are the forces I enlisted at Redcliffe's refugee camp, leading the charge against the temple? Where are the Chevaliers? The Avaar? Why could I not have seen my forces that I worked through quests to obtain actively fighting? Why could I have not seen them lost if I placed them in the wrong areas? In addition to this, I recall there being a system in place in the alpha where one could choose to save the inquisition's keep or a village in an area, similar in some ways to Awakening's finale. What happened to this system?

 

No matter what you work to achieve, you will always face Corypheus in the same, straightforward manner and his forces will have the same size no matter if you actively thwart them outside of story events or not. There is no impact, positive or negative otherwise, that makes one feel triumphant when they finally come to face him. All your choices feel meaningless in the grand scale of things, hence the victory feeling hollow.

[Rip504]

Lmao

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

It's not the matter of getting a good ending that's the issue here, it's the matter of it feeling earned

Glad at least some people are not missing the whole point

The ME3 ending was not about dark vs good ending. It was about lack of closure and logical sense.
The DA:I ending is not about good vs evil ending. It's about being empty, hollow, implausible, undeserved, boring, and un-challenged. 

 

All companions alive no-matter what.
Inquisition losses? None. Just ever growing, no set-backs.
Sky hold never attacked.
Each victory you make has ZERO OPPOSITION as a re-action to what you do.

Mages vs Templars? - INCONSEQUENTIAL 
Wardens conscripted or exiled? - INCONSEQUENTIAL
Who becomes leader in Orlais? - INCONSEQENTIAL

 

Where is the epic last battle where you position Inquisition troops, mages (or templars), wardens (if applicable), Orlais forces and your companions to lead them all - like in the ME2 Suicide mission (putting Sera in charge of templar vanguard a wrong - lethal choice(example)). 

Where is the siege on Skyhold or the place where your army is put to the test?

Where is the Venatori / Red Templar counter offenses and attacks during the game?

The game is a static ever-growing bubble the whole game. 
When you fight the final boss, you step out of that huge bubble you made... to go to a cliche, boring and easy final fight.

Bottom line: Completing the game feels too easy. Undeserved. Boring. Lacking.

 

(That said I still love the game, but imo yet again Bioware manages to fail at concluding the game)

DA:O + ME:2 endings mixed up together = Perfect and OBVIOUS solution.

Tinfoil hat: They ran out of time... again.

[Heimdall]

The problem with DAI, really I mean the problem with Corypheus, is that you steamroll him at every turn after his reveal. It makes him seem incompetent, this the Inquisition's rise is much less impressive. There no real sense of accomplishment by the end, more like punctuation overdue. If they wanted to get across the Inquisition's rise, they needed to show the Inquisition overcoming challenges. Those challenges, however, have to be credible if overcoming them is going to be impressive. The just didn't do a good job of that.

[Gileadan]

The problem is not just with Corypheus... it's with the rifts too. There's never a situation where you showed up too late, where demons poured out and overran the nearby countryside. Instead the rifts just hover there, waiting for the inquisition to show up before spitting out a handful of demons. Who then go boom in a well placed Wrath of Heaven. Man, the threat.

[berrieh]

The problem is not just with Corypheus... it's with the rifts too. There's never a situation where you showed up too late, where demons poured out and overran the nearby countryside. Instead the rifts just hover there, waiting for the inquisition to show up before spitting out a handful of demons. Who then go boom in a well placed Wrath of Heaven. Man, the threat.

 

You show up too late to the Fallow Mire. Not much you can do there. Most of the people are dead.

 

You show up too late in Crestwood - not too late to do any good, but they've already lost people.

 

You show up too late in the Hinterlands. The war has already ravaged many. Bodies lay strewn. 

 

Probably true in other regions as well. Some players seem not to care about NPCs unless they tell their whole backstory (though you can hear lots of backstory if you hang around lots of the NPCs in the game anyway) in cinematic scenes to the PC, but there are lots of times I felt "too late."  

 

And you lose a whole faction because you show up too late - either the Mages or Templars are lost to you, basically due to time, as you can't ally both. 

 

I'm not saying the game is perfect. I wish it were more dynamic and ambitious even than it was (because it'd be fun for me if I had to decide between areas and if what time I got to Fallow Mire mattered - maybe those people could be alive and I could cure the plague if I was early enough, etc, etc, and different playthroughs would see different things happen to different areas - that'd be cool, to see an even more dynamic world, but then 360 and PS3 and many, many PCs that run this game now likely couldn't run the game because it'd be heavier programming, plus it'd take a few more years). But there are definitely times you show up too late. 

 

Haven too. There are people to save, and you can be too late. 

[LinksOcarina]

After the ME3 endings reactions, I don't think you'll be seeing any depressing or sad endings from Bioware again. 

 

Besides, isn't real life trying enough? Personally, I don't want to play games where everyone loses in the end. What's the point of going through hours of gameplay just to have it all go south?

 

Who says you have to be depressed or lose in order to be mature? 

 

Can't you be happy and win AND still be mature? 

 

You can, but a somber ending is always a good thing too every once in a while to push that envelope.

[Gileadan]

You show up too late to the Fallow Mire. Not much you can do there. Most of the people are dead.

 

You show up too late in Crestwood - not too late to do any good, but they've already lost people.

 

You show up too late in the Hinterlands. The war has already ravaged many. Bodies lay strewn. 

 

Probably true in other regions as well. Some players seem not to care about NPCs unless they tell their whole backstory (though you can hear lots of backstory if you hang around lots of the NPCs in the game anyway) in cinematic scenes to the PC, but there are lots of times I felt "too late."  

 

And you lose a whole faction because you show up too late - either the Mages or Templars are lost to you, basically due to time, as you can't ally both. 

 

I'm not saying the game is perfect. I wish it were more dynamic and ambitious even than it was (because it'd be fun for me if I had to decide between areas and if what time I got to Fallow Mire mattered - maybe those people could be alive and I could cure the plague if I was early enough, etc, etc, and different playthroughs would see different things happen to different areas - that'd be cool, to see an even more dynamic world, but then 360 and PS3 and many, many PCs that run this game now likely couldn't run the game because it'd be heavier programming, plus it'd take a few more years). But there are definitely times you show up too late. 

 

Haven too. There are people to save, and you can be too late. 

I should have been clearer. 

 

I'm "too late" on those maps because that's their predefined state. I'm not too late because I wasted time elsewhere in game, I'm too late because I have no choice. Likewise, it's not a matter of time that I can only ally with mages or templars - it's because the exact moment I pick one side, the game takes away the other, no matter how long it took me. I can do all of the Hinterlands quests and not pick either side, and they will be waiting for me patiently until I make my choice.

 

I had hoped that demons would spread as time passed, overrunning encampments, killing people. But the world is static, and therefore, there's no real threat. I can do what I want. Every enemy patiently waits their turn until the inquisition comes knocking. That's what I meant.

[berrieh]

I should have been clearer. 

 

I'm "too late" on those maps because that's their predefined state. I'm not too late because I wasted time elsewhere in game, I'm too late because I have no choice. Likewise, it's not a matter of time that I can only ally with mages or templars - it's because the exact moment I pick one side, the game takes away the other, no matter how long it took me. I can do all of the Hinterlands quests and not pick either side, and they will be waiting for me patiently until I make my choice.

 

I had hoped that demons would spread as time passed, overrunning encampments, killing people. But the world is static, and therefore, there's no real threat. I can do what I want. Every enemy patiently waits their turn until the inquisition comes knocking. That's what I meant.

 

I agree it would be cool if time was a factor. I imagine that's much, much harder to develop. It's the kind of thing I hope they will consider for DA4 if they use the same or similar engine and release it all this(next)-gen, with the expectation PCs below that standard and last-gen won't be able to run it. I don't blame them for not being able to pull this off, though, as very few games can, and no RPGs of this scale do, really. If you look at their earlier marketing materials, it seems clear that they wanted to go in this direction. 

[WarBaby2]

I had hoped that demons would spread as time passed, overrunning encampments, killing people. But the world is static, and therefore, there's no real threat. I can do what I want. Every enemy patiently waits their turn until the inquisition comes knocking. That's what I meant.

Exactly, that's he main problem with the overall feel of the game, really... judging from the early game concepts, the world was planned to be more dynamic at one point, though. In he end, the game as it stands now feels like a game of hes where only one color gets all the moves...

[Mecha Elf]

bioware played it safe. Too safe. I understand the backlash against ME3 and DA2  but that doesnt mean you shouldnt go balls out in regards to the story. Maybe this was their vision in terms of story, but in my opinion they favored exploration and all that jazz instead of story. The characters and lore were really the only thing that i can say that resembles how their other games are. 

[Rip504]

Seems to me you are looking for consequences in a game based on choice.

I think the point is still being missed.

DA:O and ME2 endings mixed together lmao. Sometimes I am unsure if people are even serious on BSN.

Having a chatacter die over stupidity and/or lack of skill is not good writing. Go replay ME2 the scenes remain the same either way. Push forward. Lmao there is no feeling of loss. O wait they have metal caskets at the end. Such an epic feel of triumph... Nah not even remotely close. ME2 and DA:O should be considered cliff hangers as they left more questions than answers after the completion of the game. DA:I sits right along side every BW ending made.

I want a feeling of triumph. So I demand you force it upon others. You just saved and changed the world... Yet "you" feel nothing. How does having failures make you feel triumphant? This isn't your real life. Morale victories and all that.

You decide the fate of Mages, Templars, Empires, and many more. What made DA:O ending so epic? Killing the bad guy saving the world and getting the girl? The Inquisition starts as a bad joke. And you as a prisoner of that bad joke. It than grows into the power that will shape the future...

It is your"choices" that has led us here. It is your "choices" that will decide how you lead and what effects that leadership will have on the world. But you didn't lose any battles or friends due to bad writing or lack of skill. So you do not feel triumphant.

You are triumphant over ideals and opposition. Yet saving the world and shaping the future is not enough for you. You need moooaaaarrrrr.

When your mother, father, sister, brother, pet, loved and cared for one is horrifically murdered senselessly do you feel triumphant? Or are you left with questions of why, depression, anger, an emptiness and a feeling of loss? When you are subject to bad writing do you feel triumphant?

I am very unclear on what is being asked for. Your feeling should come from within based on what is given. Not forced fed by another over something that did not happen. What is the point of that?

Oh punish me for taking my time to explore the world. Yea that's a great idea. Nope. Attack your anxiety through cheap gameplay mechanics is what you are asking for? You must of loved the court. Missed rooms loot and content only to show up to the door and have it drop to 99 the second before you open it with no way of regaining that point. Totally awesome totally triumphant... I must be missing the point hard. In no way does he just stand around and wait on you. He ripped a whole into the sky. While your off playing inquisitor he is out trying to find other ways of becoming a god. Everytime he does you show up and foil his plans. The amount of time is never truly portrayed. So to say he is just sitting there waiting for you to foil his plans is a long shot at best. How much time did it take you to explore those regions? A few hours? Either he is moving too fast or not fast enough.

It is called giving the player a choice In what and how they want to experience something. If something interesting catches my attention I am allowed to explore and experience it without sacrificing or being punished.

In sports when you lose to your rival 41-10 you do not feel triumphant. No you feel triumphant after defeating your rival. Having them beat you does not add to that feeling. I suppose you could pretend it does, but it is totally uneeded to feel triumphant in your victory. The feeling of loss and all the bad that came with that loss,still exist. Silly.

Imo

[errantknight]

It's not the matter of getting a good ending that's the issue here, it's the matter of it feeling earned; which it does not, considering that you get the same exact result no matter what your choices are in the game. Where are the forces I enlisted at Redcliffe's refugee camp, leading the charge against the temple? Where are the Chevaliers? The Avaar? Why could I not have seen my forces that I worked through quests to obtain actively fighting? Why could I have not seen them lost if I placed them in the wrong areas? In addition to this, I recall there being a system in place in the alpha where one could choose to save the inquisition's keep or a village in an area, similar in some ways to Awakening's finale. What happened to this system?

 

No matter what you work to achieve, you will always face Corypheus in the same, straightforward manner and his forces will have the same size no matter if you actively thwart them outside of story events or not. There is no impact, positive or negative otherwise, that makes one feel triumphant when they finally come to face him. All your choices feel meaningless in the grand scale of things, hence the victory feeling hollow.

This is a pretty good point.

[theluc76]

the actual story is not about the victory but the ride there and those fetch quests

[Caelistas]

I agree, bioware clearly knows how to make great characters, but the story itself was unoriginal, and lackluster near the ending.

[Sith Grey Warden]

I didn't really feel defeated after Haven. That's the problem. There's maybe ten minutes between bringing down an avalanche on your own base and getting to Skyhold. I think if we'd had heavier casualties at Haven and they'd stretched out the period between Haven and Skyhold, the loss of Haven would've felt more real instead of just being a stepping stone to getting the real base. Maybe there could've been a mission where there was a nest of Wyverns in the way along the path through the mountains where the Inquisitor and companions have to clear it out. Maybe there could've been a mission to go find a local lord to appeal for help to get supplies for a starving army that left Haven without its supplies. There just needed to be something at that moment to make it feel like we lost something valuable at Haven.

[Mecha Elf]

i feel as if those quests in the war room were more interesting. If they had replaced the fetch quests with some of those missions i think itd be better. Fetching a potion isnt really great. Deciding something political in orlais is more interesting to me, or something of that sort. 

[errantknight]

You can, but a somber ending is always a good thing too every once in a while to push that envelope.

DA2 will do for that for awhile. I've never had a more depressing character or game playthrough, lol

[cronshaw]

i love that as a happy endings are seen as inferior now

Fing Modernists