People wanted decisions that mattered ....
This reminds me of the good ol' days of King's Quest. Thirty minutes into the game a mouse runs across the screen, being chased by a cat. Ten hours later my character is tied up, dead, in a cellar because I didn't know to save the mouse who would then chew through the ropes. I get the correlation and it was a nice "ah ha! curses, cruel fate!" moment, but it felt like a cheap kinda 'gotcha'.
I think this crisis moment for Leliana should have been introduced at Skyhold; that way our PC's would 1) have the legitimate authority to insert themselves above the wishes of the spymaster, 2) a personal investment in the betrayal, versus being some newbie to the cause, 3) our PC at this point knows some of Leliana's conflict with the light and dark sides of her personality...we would be able to consider her actions as being in-character or out-of-character dependent upon our views, etc, and offer advice from there..
As it stands in Haven, however, who the fck am I to be telling her how to handle her business? I've known her and the Inquisition for a hot minute, and it's not like I caught her in the act of drowning some puppies.
I understand that in the early plans for the game the player's character would have been made Inquisitor on arrival at Haven.
I'm wondering to what extent that has affected the decision with the traitor.
Certainly, some players would have been more inclined to become involved.
I'm wondering if there would have been the opportunity for more involvement.
the dialogue introducing this scene suggested to me that there may be more to the case than met the eye (Was Butler framed?) and the correct choice would have been to investigate further to try to find out the truth.
options may have been cut for other reasons - difficulty paraphrasing, not wanting an obviously correct response,etc
so all we got was
1) call for all traitors to die - maybe an indication of bloodthirst, or maybe a desire to show your enthusiasm for the inquisition (so they don't change their mind about not killing you) -so traitor dies
2) recognise you have no authority, you don't know all the details and Leiliana probably knows what she's doing (and it's hard to argue with killing a single enemy murderer to protect the lives of many of her agents) so stay silent and traitor dies
3a) tell Leiliana that it is morally wrong to kill people (and spend the rest of the game killing people because you're a hypocrite) so the traitor gets locked up in a prison from which he'll probably escape and continue to murder Leiliana's agents
3b) Suggest to Leiliana that there are more practical alternatives to killing and the traitor gets locked up in a prison (as above)
any option but 3a and Leiliana takes it as permission to kill any enemy of the inquisition regardless of whether they are threatening anyone's life or not...
All I know is that like many of you I was on board with the killing of the traitor to protect our people and as justice for those he had already been responsible for the deaths of. I didn't consider this a "hardening" prospect, it was simply a decision made in war.
I've done -every- single thing to soften her according to every single thread and guide that lists how... and she still killed Sister Natalie and went all Sith on me.
So, one decision early game rendered all that came after worthless. As though the "softening" flag wasn't switched to "on" because of the one convo. Very lame.
Guest_Mlady_*
All I know is that like many of you I was on board with the killing of the traitor to protect our people and as justice for those he had already been responsible for the deaths of. I didn't consider this a "hardening" prospect, it was simply a decision made in war.
I've done -every- single thing to soften her according to every single thread and guide that lists how... and she still killed Sister Natalie and went all Sith on me.
So, one decision early game rendered all that came after worthless. As though the "softening" flag wasn't switched to "on" because of the one convo. Very lame.
It does bother me, because a traitor should die so your secrets aren't compromised, but this choice makes her ruined forever if you don't want her to become cold.
I don't really see much of a problem, but that's mostly because the Herald has the option to use the "resource" card as a reason to spare him, rather than being obligated to use some idealistic view of justice or something (which should have been a nigh impossible sell to someone like Leliana). It's no different from my sparing of Alexius to have him do magical research, despite that guy being far worse than Butler.
Guest_Mlady_*
I don't really see much of a problem, but that's mostly because the Herald has the option to use the "resource" card as a reason to spare him, rather than being obligated to use some idealistic view of justice or something (which should have been a nigh impossible sell to someone like Leliana). It's no different from my sparing of Alexius to have him do magical research, despite that guy being far worse than Butler.
I always tell her to use him as a resource and when she says she's not happy with what she does, I tell her she's if she's not happy, the she's doing something wrong. She says "that's one way of putting it" and seems more peaceful then if I choose any other reply.
All I know is that like many of you I was on board with the killing of the traitor to protect our people and as justice for those he had already been responsible for the deaths of. I didn't consider this a "hardening" prospect, it was simply a decision made in war.
I've done -every- single thing to soften her according to every single thread and guide that lists how... and she still killed Sister Natalie and went all Sith on me.
So, one decision early game rendered all that came after worthless. As though the "softening" flag wasn't switched to "on" because of the one convo. Very lame.
So I wonder: What if that guy wasn't the spy, but one of the people in his network was? It would sure make him look guilty, no matter what. So instead of taking the time to find out, even though in actual game play, even if you don't kill him it never comes up again, we just assume he's guilty and kill him, or just condone it by not objecting to it, because despite not having any real authority, we are given the opportunity to speak up, if we choose, one way or the other, that's not a choice that should matter? It's not something that says "Well, the Herald was standing right there, and knew what I was planning and didn't object, so they must approve"? Because to me, if you're listening to your friends plan something that you know is "wrong", and don't speak up, you are agreeing with what they're planning by default, and if they plan something similar later, and you speak up then, they aren't going to look at you like you're a hypocrite?
Regarding the "authority to speak up", none of us have any authority here, and yet we "flood" these forums with our opinions. How is it that it's any different in game? If we think something is a bad idea, and we're given an opportunity to say so, what's really stopping us from doing so? The short answer is "Nothing". Nothing is stopping us from stopping her from just killing that guy, nothing, that is, except ourselves. So if this isn't what we want, or what we expect, why would we condone it, either by agreeing that all traitors should be killed, or by agreeing that all traitors should be killed by just allowing it to happen by staying silent. This decision carries weight, and that's what the BSN wants, until they realize that sometimes, a decision having weight can shoot them in the foot for what they want to happen later. Then, all of a sudden, it's either "We need notes on the choices to show us that we could shoot ourselves in the foot", or "choices that early in the game shouldn't matter".
This choice was perfectly executed, IMO. It sets the tone one wants to have for their Inquisition, and specifically for Leliana. If I want her to be more compassionate, then I have to steer her towards that. If I don't, and she winds up ruthless, it's my fault for not taking the reigns early and steering the Inquisition, and her, in the direction I want. If someone wants to say that being ruthless in dealing with a traitor isn't any indication of ruthlessness, I'll have to question if they understand what ruthless means. Every time this pops back to the first page, however, I'm reminded of the Ruthless Renegade Shepard players that picked all the paragon options in ME 2, then couldn't figure out why they couldn't get a Renegade response when they wanted one.
I think what bothers me isn't that my choices can have the impact, but that they designed it so that single choice overrides every single other choice made, and the reason being that the game has Leliana flagged as Hardened from the start, and it's up to you to do whatever you can to soften her with every single interaction otherwise she remains Hardened. Which is contrary to my Keep info in which I indicated she was not Hardened in DA:O. Why ask for that info if it has no bearing on the game at all? Shouldn't those of us that already softened her with our play in the past see some sort of ease in keeping her that way?
Heck, after all that I described in my post I did the wartable to get the Hero of Fereldan's letters. Contained was one for me that was all "Her strength is her faith and warm heart, do all you can in these trying times to remind her of that" or some such. Plus a letter for her directly from her love.
"Yesss!" I thought, "The designers put in a failsafe for those of us that softened her in Origins and have a Hero that is her lover!" Nope. No impact. In the convo with her she acts all soft and warm and happy, but hard as a rock as soon as that cut scene is done. No impact.
Edit: Just checked the keep. You can choose Marjolaine's fate but not whether or not Leliana is hard or soft, in actuality. Shame. The designers really missed out on what could have been an impactful opportunity.
I think what bothers me isn't that my choices can have the impact, but that they designed it so that single choice overrides every single other choice made, and the reason being that the game has Leliana flagged as Hardened from the start, and it's up to you to do whatever you can to soften her with every single interaction otherwise she remains Hardened. Which is contrary to my Keep info in which I indicated she was not Hardened in DA:O. Why ask for that info if it has no bearing on the game at all? Shouldn't those of us that already softened her with our play in the past see some sort of ease in keeping her that way?
Heck, after all that I described in my post I did the wartable to get the Hero of Fereldan's letters. Contained was one for me that was all "Her strength is her faith and warm heart, do all you can in these trying times to remind her of that" or some such. Plus a letter for her directly from her love.
"Yesss!" I thought, "The designers put in a failsafe for those of us that softened her in Origins and have a Hero that is her lover!" Nope. No impact. In the convo with her she acts all soft and warm and happy, but hard as a rock as soon as that cut scene is done. No impact.
Edit: Just checked the keep. You can choose Marjolaine's fate but not whether or not Leliana is hard or soft, in actuality. Shame. The designers really missed out on what could have been an impactful opportunity.
Again, I just feel like an offhand "Traitors should be punished" comment seems like it shouldn't outweigh *ALL* further and much more personal interactions in which a more compassionate stance is demonstrated.
Further, Leliana killing Sister Natalie, regardless of hard/soft, when I instruct her not to is a direct disobeying of an order from the Inquisitor she serves. They want to demonstrate that choices have weight, and that because I said traitors should be punished this is the result, but there's no addressing the insubordination in the field? No consequences save a "You're a hypocrit" speech from Red? Sounds to me like going this route should have resulted in another judgement scene...
So I wonder: What if that guy wasn't the spy, but one of the people in his network was? It would sure make him look guilty, no matter what. So instead of taking the time to find out, even though in actual game play, even if you don't kill him it never comes up again, we just assume he's guilty and kill him, or just condone it by not objecting to it, because despite not having any real authority, we are given the opportunity to speak up, if we choose, one way or the other, that's not a choice that should matter?
If you trust Leliana knows what she's doing, then yeah, not stepping in there makes sense.
A competent Leliana knows whether it was him or if he was being set up. That scout who starts the conversation with her was bringing an intel report. She was already looking in to this. She knows the people involved, she has the resources to investigate it, and she's certain that he's a traitor who's killed one of her best agents and knows where the others are. I have no reason not to trust that she knows what she's doing and is 100% correct. I stay out of it and let this nice spymaster lady do her job to protect her people from eminent harm.
This should not make it impossible for her to remember the value of compassion/mercy later on. If Natalie was the same as Butler-- a traitor who had killed or was threatening to kill someone in the inquisition-- it would make sense. But she isn't. She's ostensibly unarmed and not threatening anyone's life. The worst she can do intel-wise is report back to her cleric that Justinia left Leliana an empty box. Whoopitydo.
Heck, Leliana's not even being ruthless/practical in her decision to kill Natalie. She could have used the fact she knew the woman was a spy to feed misinformation back to the cleric. Assuming the cleric was even important enough to bother.
Leliana wants to kill Natalie in that moment b/c she personally feels annoyed that this woman is pretending to be friendly to her and is really working for a political opponent. Not b/c Natalie is really a threat to anything. This doesn't equate to the Butler situation and Leliana is practical/smart enough to see that. Assuming I've not been encouraging Leliana to be a completely callous and ruthless woman (i.e. I've told her to let the scouts, that she was protecting in choice 1 by killing Butler, be hung out to dry in choice 2), I should be able to stop her.
If you trust Leliana knows what she's doing, then yeah, not stepping in there makes sense.
A competent Leliana knows whether it was him or if he was being set up. That scout who starts the conversation with her was bringing an intel report. She was already looking in to this. She knows the people involved, she has the resources to investigate it, and she's certain that he's a traitor who's killed one of her best agents and knows where the others are. I have no reason not to trust that she knows what she's doing and is 100% correct. I stay out of it and let this nice spymaster lady do her job to protect her people from eminent harm.
This should not make it impossible for her to remember the value of compassion/mercy later on. If Natalie was the same as Butler-- a traitor who had killed or was threatening to kill someone in the inquisition-- it would make sense. But she isn't. She's ostensibly unarmed and not threatening anyone's life. The worst she can do intel-wise is report back to her cleric that Justinia left Leliana an empty box. Whoopitydo.
Heck, Leliana's not even being ruthless/practical in her decision to kill Natalie. She could have used the fact she knew the woman was a spy to feed misinformation back to the cleric. Assuming the cleric was even important enough to bother.
Leliana wants to kill Natalie in that moment b/c she personally feels annoyed that this woman is pretending to be friendly to her and is really working for a political opponent. Not b/c Natalie is really a threat to anything. This doesn't equate to the Butler situation and Leliana is practical/smart enough to see that. Assuming I've not been encouraging Leliana to be a completely callous and ruthless woman (i.e. I've told her to let the scouts, that she was protecting in choice 1 by killing Butler, be hung out to dry in choice 2), I should be able to stop her.
I don't really see much of a problem, but that's mostly because the Herald has the option to use the "resource" card as a reason to spare him, rather than being obligated to use some idealistic view of justice or something (which should have been a nigh impossible sell to someone like Leliana). It's no different from my sparing of Alexius to have him do magical research, despite that guy being far worse than Butler.
This exactly. I see no reason to kill people if I can use them, this is nothing to do with good and evil. This is best part of DA:I for me I don't need to kill people(except random NPC number 273 
) I made Grand Duchess Florianne work for Inquisition. After this point I released I have no right to judge people anymore. 
I don't really see much of a problem, but that's mostly because the Herald has the option to use the "resource" card as a reason to spare him, rather than being obligated to use some idealistic view of justice or something (which should have been a nigh impossible sell to someone like Leliana). It's no different from my sparing of Alexius to have him do magical research, despite that guy being far worse than Butler.
But the idealism works because Leliana is conflicted about it. She was idealistic. She kind of wants to be idealistic. But she's so broken by everything she's done for Justinia and everything she thinks the Inquisition needs to do to succeed.
Guest_PaladinDragoon_*
Good news is we got the Keep. Just to avoid any possible import bugs into the next Dragon Age game. We will likely be using the Keep to import our world state instead of the old save import method. A harden or unharden Leliana is just a click away. 
This issue here is that when you have to make this decision you have only recently joined the Inquisition. Whilst you are the Herald, you could be strenuously (or as much as the game allows) denying this title. Leliana is the spymaster and knows her team better than you do. I normally stand back and watch. To my mind it is a learning process on my part. I have no business in interfering. However, I assume the reason on the part of the writing team is that Leliana does see you as the Herald whether you admit to it or not, which is why she does defer to your judgement.
What this doesn't explain is why, if you spend the rest of the game showing mercy to all and sundry, approve her decision to withdraw her scouts and then tell her to spare the sister, she ignores you. Since now not only are you much more invested in the role of Herald (whether you like it or not) but you are also the Inquisitor, her boss, and therefore she is ignoring a direct order from you. Invariably, after this display, I go back and vote for Cassandra because a steeled Leliana is clearly a danger to anyone who crosses her - I didn't need to see the epilogue to know that.
Decisions should be cumulative though, not one decision at the outset of a game setting a character irrevocably on a particular path.
People wanted choices that mattered. There ya go.
This issue here is that when you have to make this decision you have only recently joined the Inquisition. Whilst you are the Herald, you could be strenuously (or as much as the game allows) denying this title. Leliana is the spymaster and knows her team better than you do. I normally stand back and watch. To my mind it is a learning process on my part. I have no business in interfering. However, I assume the reason on the part of the writing team is that Leliana does see you as the Herald whether you admit to it or not, which is why she does defer to your judgement.
What this doesn't explain is why, if you spend the rest of the game showing mercy to all and sundry, approve her decision to withdraw her scouts and then tell her to spare the sister, she ignores you. Since now not only are you much more invested in the role of Herald (whether you like it or not) but you are also the Inquisitor, her boss, and therefore she is ignoring a direct order from you. Invariably, after this display, I go back and vote for Cassandra because a steeled Leliana is clearly a danger to anyone who crosses her - I didn't need to see the epilogue to know that.
Decisions should be cumulative though, not one decision at the outset of a game setting a character irrevocably on a particular path.
Leliana's whole character development arc in Inquisition was rather disappointing. It's basically just a mirror image of her arc from Origins.
Origins has her starting off all pro-Chantry and idealistic with the option to either have her stay on that course or harden her. Inquisition Leliana starts off hardened and can continue on that course or go back to the softer, more idealistic Origins version of Leliana.
Would have been nicer to see her at least start off in a state of mind more in line with how she ended Origins. As it stands it just seems like she doesn't have much mind of her own, instead just having her whole world view dictated by other people.
But the idealism works because Leliana is conflicted about it. She was idealistic. She kind of wants to be idealistic. But she's so broken by everything she's done for Justinia and everything she thinks the Inquisition needs to do to succeed.
Fair point, though I'm glad that my Inquisitor can still pull the resource thing instead.
It's one thing to have a choice that matters. it's another to have a choice that matters, without telling you it does. Most other choices tell you why they are important. This one does not. The choice with Cole for instance lets you know exactly what the consequences of each will be. The thing with Leliana dealing with Butler does not. It's extra weird for me because I stayed out of that decision and then she tells me I've been telling her to be ruthless for the entire game when that's actually completely untrue. I told her to be less ruthless and stayed out of her way.
Fair point, though I'm glad that my Inquisitor can still pull the resource thing instead.
Oh, absolutely. I think it's an important (and pragmatic) option. It works great for my blunt Inquisitor.
Retour en haut