395 réponses à ce sujet

[wright1978]

Loved it. Great to see re-hardened Leliana at work. Want more hardening/softening in future with companions.

[Tsunami Chef]

I think they could have made it a much more clear choice, but I think it makes sense lorewise...Leliana is a spymaster who calls for assassinations for a living. She is much closer to being hardened than being "soft". It makes sense that it would take considerable effort to turn her into a goody two shoes, and even the slightest approval of what she already seems to clearly enjoy doing could set her down the road for life. From my playthrough it seems clear that Leliana wants to harden herself and believes it's necessary before you say anything, and only after convincing does she think of being softer.

[AsheraII]

We want our choices to matter but we also want them to make sense. The fact is it should have been the MAJORITY of checks (or at least just her personal quest) rather then one simple choice in the beginning. I have no idea why you would just give someone that betrayed and murdered a free pass anyway.

Leliana isn't sure either, so she asks you. And she learns from your decision.

What's next? Should every decision now also give a help text "Leliane hardens" vs "Leliane softens"?

 

You're playing your own character, but how you play your character affects the other characters, whether you like it or not. I'm starting to loose faith whether some people here even know what a ROLEPLAYING GAME is. As a hint, stats and levels don't have anything to do with it.

[Undead Han]

From a story point..I get it. I mean, the problem is that she has done some really horrible things for Justinia. So she is already down that road thinking that the ends justify the means, she is hardwired to ruthlessness so you have to do everything you can do make her better. 

 

And also before Justinia. Her life as a bard was fairly ruthless as well.

 

So with Leliana I think some degree of ruthlessness is her default state, and the softer side to her that you see in Origins is Leliana trying to turn over a new leaf.

 

It makes some sense that it might be a bit difficult to pull Leliana back in DA:I. She hasn't changed in DA:I so much as reverted to old form.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

I really liked it and it maked sense. When I got to that scene I had the option to have Leliana spare the spy and I did. It was only after that I learnt on the forums that that was because of the choices I'd made and it made me reflect on those choices and feel rewarded, which is the whole point. The same with who ends up as Divine. You can always do things differently and metagame on a second playthrough or change it in the Keep.

[Wulfram]

I don't think it makes much sense.  Why should everything hang on these two minor decisions? 

Why does this one relatively justified killing of a traitor who has caused deaths of Inquisition agents matter, but all the potentially more dubious missions in the war room don't? 

Why doesn't the Inquisition's complicity in the murder of Celene matter? 

Why doesn't the treatment of that captured magister in the Calpurnia quest matter? 

Why doesn't it matter if she's got a warden who loves her, or if she saw them die, or if she was killed?

Why must the Inquisitor not understand military strategy?

[Gothfather]

Most people do not dislike things because there are choices that have an impact, it is a dislike of not knowing why something happens and no idea what choices had the aforementioned impact/consequences. That actually comes down to bad writing if the choices you are making do not relate well to the consequences of those choices. When a consequence does not make sense based on the choices you made. All this thread is doing in my opinion is trying to figure out what relationship previous choices had with the drastic personality change consequence shown in game.

 

My Leliana was nice, sometimes bit harsh and even a tiny bit protective but never vicious or brutal prior to that scene in DAI itself, I picked the nice options and believed I had softened her up based on previous choices even more so...when that scene happened and she became so nasty and vicious it did not fit with the character she was all the way up leading to that point. You could argue that there was some traits but at a fraction of the scale of what happened, but it was a glaring and almost split personality level of change for mine which happened almost in an instant within that scene.

 

So you want to know what the delayed consequences are before they happen? The whole point about delayed consequences is that they are DELAYED so its sometimes near impossible to know what specific action lead to which consequence. Sure people may want to GAME the system but that isn't biowares job to make it easy for them to do so thats what wikis are for, to provide people with the knowledge to game teh system if they want.

 

Depending on your world state you might not be able to have an impact on softening her up if you imported a "harden" leliana or perhaps you influenced her in less stressed moments but in the end she reverted back to her "true" self under stress. I don't know how the GAME mechanics work but the fact you don't have full agency over an NPC smacks of good game design in my books. i don't know your world state or what actions you actually took with Leliana but the NPC I am seeing in the game is one that isn't sweet and nice, a fact her close friend mentions if you ask her. The death of the divine has scared her and she is very much a person in pain and looking to payback, so seeing her "snap," isn't really that surprising.

[Reznore57]

Leliana is someone who is very affected by some people around her.

She does what's expected of her , and she push devotion to a scary point , her devotion changes her deeply.

It seems the Divine used her as a weapon , and after Haven , she's back at the start , like in Origins , she still doesn't know who she is.

Besides after all the death , she is very shaken and angry.

The scout is just her way to lash out , and you can push her in resolving the issue with death , or being more merciful and capture him.

Anyway in both cases , you resolve the traitor issue , for me it's not about the traitor anyway , it's about your spymaster being in a very dark place.

[Wulfram]

And the other question would be why you can't arrest her for murder, or even express serious reservations, or do anything at all about your spymaster going totally crazy

[9TailsFox]

Yeah, it was pretty bad.  I mean, the traitor in the beginning of the game not only knew the names of other agents, but killed one of her best agents as well.  He deserves to die.  I chose the "stay out of it" option, and apparently if you don't tell her not to kill him, she becomes ruthless in the end.

 

Weak.

Sometimes inaction is bigger choice when action.

[Reznore57]

And the other question would be why you can't arrest her for murder, or even express serious reservations, or do anything at all about your spymaster going totally crazy

 

Well at first you're not the leader.

Cassandra build the Inquisition , and Leliana has the same rank as her.

And I suspect Cassandra and Cullen don't talk much about Leliana's job , I think they both think it's a necessary evil.

Josephine is Leliana 's friend, but I think Leliana is like a big sister , so I doubt Josi has much influence.

 

And there's the player who can choose to get involved (by telling her her method are good or not) or like Cass and Cullen watch from afar and let her do whatever she wants.

 

Besides she's a good spymaster (even if she's a bit nuts) and there's no one else for the job.You can ask Varric , and he says Leli is perfect because she's way more ruthless than him.

[Wulfram]

I think we're talking about different things.  I'm talking about after Leliana's personal quest.  When you are unambiguously the leader, and Leliana's just straight up murdered someone for rather little reason against your orders, then acted totally crazy.  And it's not like you need a great spy master for the missions that remain, you've done the politicking.

[Reznore57]

I think we're talking about different things.  I'm talking about after Leliana's personal quest.  When you are unambiguously the leader, and Leliana's just straight up murdered someone for rather little reason against your orders, then acted totally crazy.  And it's not like you need a great spy master for the missions that remain, you've done the politicking.

 

Oh when she kills the Sister?

I'm not sure what happens , I didn't have that in my game.

I had a very grateful Leliana .

(Although she hops on the crazy train later when she has an epiphany and decide she's going to be the BEST divine ever , even if you tell her no , she tells you "Oh yes I'm going to be ")

 

But I can imagine a number of reasons for not kicking her out , as long as she's part of the Inquisition , she doesn't get too involved with the Divine business .Letting her go might cause problems ,she has supporters after all (since the Chantry supports her claim to the Sunburst Throne).

Also you may loose a number of spies working with her .

But yeah at the very least you should be able to have a conversation and tell her after everything is done , she's fired.

[wright1978]

I think we're talking about different things.  I'm talking about after Leliana's personal quest.  When you are unambiguously the leader, and Leliana's just straight up murdered someone for rather little reason against your orders, then acted totally crazy.  And it's not like you need a great spy master for the missions that remain, you've done the politicking.

 

You may be unambiguously the leader but that doesn't mean you have ability to carte blanche remove a founder of the inquisition.

[Wulfram]

You may be unambiguously the leader but that doesn't mean you have ability to carte blanche remove a founder of the inquisition.

 

If you can't remove someone for being a crazy murderer, you're not the leader.  If you can't exercise any control over what your spymaster is doing, you're not the leader.

[Tsunami Chef]

If you can't remove someone for being a crazy murderer, you're not the leader.  If you can't exercise any control over what your spymaster is doing, you're not the leader.

The inquisitor is a crazy murderer...companions even talk about how many people you kill. You are the leader of an army...and you are referencing the leader of your assassins/spies. It doesn't apply in the same way.

[Patchwork]

I do find it odd that a defining character decision is so early in the game and with the information that scene gives you only goodie-two-shoes future Inquisitors or meta gamers would tell her not to kill him.  And as Wulfram said why that decision and not another? To me how you handled The Game should have an impacted her more than the choice the player makes at Haven.

 

The second one is a lot more reasonable you either encourage her to think her agents are expandable or not. It makes sense that one matters. 

[wright1978]

If you can't remove someone for being a crazy murderer, you're not the leader.  If you can't exercise any control over what your spymaster is doing, you're not the leader.

 

Inquisitor is a leader imo. You can exercise control via the war table by favouring other advisors. You can disagree with her actions and you can even influence her behaviour by hardening/softening as has been shown. But no the inquisitor isn't a dictator(if that's your sole definition of a leader) they can't just kick a senior figure with strong allegiances with other senior figures within the inquisition to the curb.

[Wulfram]

The inquisitor is a crazy murderer...companions even talk about how many people you kill. You are the leader of an army...and you are referencing the leader of your assassins/spies. It doesn't apply in the same way.

 

Killing enemy soldiers and bandits who attack you is hardly comparable to cutting the throat of someone who is wholly at your mercy.

 

And the spymaster is post where trust and loyalty and obedience and judgement and sanity are particularly important.

[Rifneno]

The only real problem I have with it is that there's no justifiable reason for making her spare that traitor in Haven. Every point she makes is valid. He's a traitor, he's costing good men their lives. He deserves to die. He should die. It is justice. It's not like she's going to torture him, she said make it quick and clean. And lastly, yes, you are the leader in the later quests. But you are NOT the leader in Haven, you're literally only there because you were looking for the can and stumbled onto Corypheus' ritual. Your bumbling gave you Corypheus' anchor - that's it. What the hell right do we have to tell her to spare a traitor at that point?

I'm fine with her quest hinging on some earlier decisions. I'm not fine with those decisions being stupid.

[Tsunami Chef]

Killing enemy soldiers and bandits who attack you is hardly comparable to cutting the throat of someone who is wholly at your mercy.

 

And the spymaster is post where trust and loyalty and obedience and judgement and sanity are particularly important.

Yes...because it's not like the Inquisitor spends every waking moment running through other peoples territory like it's his own and taking whatever he likes..

 

If 4 soldiers came running into skyhold looting the chests and then Inquisition guards attacked them...would the inquisition soldiers be in the wrong?

 

The point is you don't give a flying **** about Leliana killing some random chantry sister when you've killed 400 people over the last month and Leliana has ordered the assassinations of 10 people in the last week. It's also not like she had no reason for doing what she did..

[OldSwede]

The ones who have taken the Mage' side, it might have to do with if you tell her to lay down her weapon...? Maybe?

Thinking it's a pretty major decision.

(I can't recall exact phrase, and I don't know how things turns out when taking the Templar's side)

 

Just a thought

[Wulfram]

Yes...because it's not like the Inquisitor spends every waking moment running through other peoples territory like it's his own and taking whatever he likes..
 
If 4 soldiers came running into skyhold looting the chests and then Inquisition guards attacked them...would the inquisition soldiers be in the wrong?

The Inquisitor fought people who attacked the party for walking down a road, and enemy soldiers and agents. If the inquisition attacked people for walking in their vicinity, yes they'd be in the wrong.
 

The point is you don't give a flying **** about Leliana killing some random chantry sister when you've killed 400 people over the last month and Leliana has ordered the assassinations of 10 people in the last week. It's also not like she had no reason for doing what she did..

I clearly do give a damn about Leliana killing a random chantry sister, otherwise I wouldn't have told her not to do it, and she really has very little reason for killing that sister. I mean, she lied and she opposes the inquisition. That's all. It's not like she's a threat considering she's got a knife to her throat.

The ones who have taken the Mage' side, it might have to do with if you tell her to lay down her weapon...? Maybe?
Thinking it's a pretty major decision.
(I can't recall exact phrase, and I don't know how things turns out when taking the Templar's side)
 
Just a thought

No, nothing to do with that.

[Cuthlan]

Bioware, you need to make a game where our choices matter! 

 

Bioware, you didn't tell me that choice was gonna matter! 

[Lianaar]

A lot of people complain, that their decisions don't matter.
Well, they do. "Little" decisions make a huge difference.
You can not decide how people react to your decisions. It is them who decide it.
I loved this alteration option in Leliana personally.

The decision was not marked as: hey, if you pick this, then in x hours this will happen. But if that were written there, I don't think I could play with the game.
So I don't think this sucks, I think it rocks